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  #1  
11-10-2010, 10:25 PM
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There's been several questions lately regarding the non-obvious differences of Blu-ray vs DVD media, as well as LTH BD-R vs HTL BD-R. While this will be more eloquently put into a future media guide, I'm going to quickly discuss it now.

Write-once recordable DVD-R/DVD+R media (as well as CD-R media) all uses synthetic organic based dyes -- usually azoic dyes (metallized azo chelates or azo metal chelate). Some of them are based on other synthetic organics, such as cyanine, dipyrrometheme or oxonol. CD-R also uses phthalocyanine or formazon. Information on the raw materials can be found on wikipedia, but for in-depth optical application, you'll want to pour over patent applications and brush up on your knowledge of chemistry.

Write-once BD-R media is primarily based on inorganic dyes, found in HTL discs. Rather than re-type everything right now, I'm just going to quote from a TDK document available on their English-version Japanese site:
Quote:
The BD-R write-once type utilizes a recording layer of inorganic material. Since it is unaffected by exposure to light, it boasts outstanding archivability. Previous types of write-once type discs such as the CD-R, DVD-R and others utilized organic dye for their recording layer. The BD-R write-once type is based on a completely new concept for the recording layer utilizing a two-layer structure composed of silicon (Si) and copper alloy (Cu) inorganic materials. When heated by the recording laser beam, these melt and the Si and Cu alloy become a composite forming recording marks. Because the material is inorganic, it is not affected by light, thus realizing a disc with outstandingly high reliability in terms of archivability. (Fig. 6)
Mitsubishi (Verbatim/MCC/MKM) has attempted to recycle old CD/DVD line manufacturing equipment to create a new type of organic Azo-based LTH BD-R, although results on those discs has been less than desired. Even second-tier HTL BD-R from the likes of Ritek or CMC has been known to perform better than Verbatim LTH BD-R. Much of this depends on the drive, so future burners could well perform better. The jury is still out on this one. I really do hope MKM suceeds with LTH, because it could lower costs long-term, and keep media profitable for that industry.

Anyway, that's all for now.

Attached is the original TDK press release (PDF version), which has more information.
Although it may someday 404, as many press releases do, here's the current link: http://www.tdk.co.jp/teaah01/aah17200.htm


Attached Files
File Type: pdf TDK Blu-ray Press Release.pdf (353.3 KB, 13 downloads)

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  #2  
11-10-2010, 10:32 PM
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For added information on LTH BD-R, here's some Verbatim marketing literature:

Quote:
Verbatim BD-R LTH media is manufactured with an organic dye that turns the disc’s reflectivity during recording from “low to high”. Other BD-R discs use the “high to low” recording method. Additionally, BD-R LTH is manufactured on converted CD-R/DVD-R production lines, which utilize a spin coating process and allow excess materials to be recycled. These two cost-cutting measures let us pass along the savings to you. Upon introduction of the BD-R LTH media, key hardware manufacturers like Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic and LG have worked to assure that their burners are fully compatible. If your BD burner is a 2009 model or later it will most likely support recording and playback of BD-R LTH media. If your Blu-ray hardware was manufactured before 2009, check with the manufacturer for firmware updates. For detailed compatibility information, see our compatibility chart.

Features & Benefits
  • Low to High (LTH) – BD-R LTH is the same as all other Blu-ray media, except it’s manufactured using a more efficient production process.
  • High-Definition – Blu-ray discs are designed especially to store large HD video and audio files. So, you’ll use fewer discs when you’re backing-up, recording or duplicating high definition digital recordings - including your music library.
  • Hard Coat - All Verbatim Blu-ray discs are treated with a super hard coat to prevent scratches, resist fingerprints and reduce dust build-up.
  • Laser Technology – Verbatim Blu-ray discs use blue-violet laser technology to read and write data. That means, superb resolution, excellent contrast, vivid colors and amazing sound.
  • Capacity - The Verbatim single-layer Blu-ray disc offers up to 25GB of storage space to back-up your video, music, photos and more.
  • Recordable – This single-layer Blu-ray disc is designed for one-time recording and should be used with BD-R hardware.
  • Compatibility – Verbatim Blu-ray discs are compatible with the latest Blu-ray hardware from leaders in the market like Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic and LG. For more specific compatibility information, see the compatibility chart.
  • Warranty – All Verbatim Blu-ray discs are backed with a Limited Lifetime Warranty and a 40-year history of quality and reliability.
It's actually pretty refreshing to see optical CD/DVD/BD literature that says something beyond "good stuff, best there is, archival grade, lasts 500 years". Kudos to MKM for quickly going over why they made it (cost cutting) as well as how it differs (organic dye), and even some honesty about firmware and drive compatibility. (They do lose a few points, however, for some of the silly bullet points, like insinuating that BD-R improves resolution of video.)

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  #3  
02-23-2011, 01:17 PM
GeorgeGear GeorgeGear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Mitsubishi (Verbatim/MCC/MKM) has attempted to recycle old CD/DVD line manufacturing equipment to create a new type of organic Azo-based LTH BD-R, although results on those discs has been less than desired. Even second-tier HTL BD-R from the likes of Ritek or CMC has been known to perform better than Verbatim LTH BD-R. Much of this depends on the drive, so future burners could well perform better. The jury is still out on this one. I really do hope MKM suceeds with LTH, because it could lower costs long-term, and keep media profitable for that industry.
Based on the user feedback we read, we also originally thought that LTH had very poor results. It turns out, however, that the very large majority of negative reviews on LTH are due to users who did not realize that their burners needed to be LTH-compatible, or did not check before purchasing LTH media. When you take out incompatibility issues, LTH media actually scores higher than the best HTL media. We rated it archival grade IF your burners are compatible. I cannot publish the link the our LTH data, as the article is not published yet (it will publish in the next 2 weeks), but it is a part of the ConsumerPla.net Blu Ray Blank Media Guide which is ongoing for another month or so.

As a note, while we feel that LTH media is appropriate for data archival, it is not clear to us that it is so for audio or video, since, despite the LTH hype, many audio or video players are still not LTH-compatible. On the other hand, almost all modern data players (i.e. for computer use) are LTH-compatible today. So, in my view, at this time, data storage/ archival is a perfect use for LTH, but don't put your music or video on it if you want to take it to a friend's:-)

Best -

George Gear
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02-24-2011, 02:32 PM
GeorgeGear GeorgeGear is offline
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The article on LTH media that I was referencing upthread is now out here. While the previous article discusses LTH media in general, this one specifically rates Verbatim LTH media.

George Gear
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  #5  
03-20-2011, 01:53 AM
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Preface: I've actually hesitated a bit to reply to the past pair of posts, because I don't want to come off sounding rude or mean. I need to relay a certain kind of commentary, and I fear it may come across that way -- even though there is no malice.

First off, thanks for posting, and welcome to The Digital FAQ.

I can appreciate the attempt to assist consumers in avoiding poor-performing blank media products, as has been one of our goals from the earliest incarnations of this site.

However, you've unfortunately gone about it in the wrong way. What you've created is simply an accumulation of heresay, left anonymously and semi-randomly online, by people who may or may not be qualified or educated in media in any way. As such, the margin of error could be as high as 50% or greater -- an unacceptable error margin by any standard.

To pull a quote:
Quote:
Nothing can replace user reviews to find out how good the media is - we need to be able to read other users' experiences, in particularly for off brands, and validate both quality and Media IDs, in particular when the media is outsourced. Sites need to provide for user reviews, but they also need to have large numbers of them.
You simply cannot base a legitimate study on commentary found on sites like Amazon, as those are over and over again proven to filled with clueless comments. It's quite typical for a product to be blamed for something when it's actually the user (or the user's computer/hardware) that is at fault. Some of the poor reviews are obvious, while others are not.

For example, you'll find ample positive reviews for known-poor media, such as CMC, Ritek, Ume Disc and Princo, through the past number of years. Some people simply are not aware of problems at the time these reviews are left, because they've utilized zero testing procedures.

Compare that to the blank DVD study that has been continuously conducted by digitalFAQ.com founding members since 2001 -- almost 10 years -- and encompasses thousands of discs every year. This is an in-house private study, overseen by savvy media professionals and archivists, and reflects a highly-experience body of research. Findings have been published in limited format, as the intention of the review was for our own various buying/usage purposes through the years. However, future guides on this site aim to be a bit more info-filled, and slightly more transparent.

Even the excellent independent studies by groups like C't never worked with that volume of media, from what we know of their methods. The same can be said about the formal science research studies by NIST or OSTA. Those studies tend to be very tight-lipped, especially concerning findings on which brands did poorly.

Here's another good example on how NOT to conduct a disc study: We've always been both amused and annoyed by the online forum user 'The Digital Dolphin' aka 'Dolphinius Rex' aka 'Lord Dolphin', a person whom would go so far as to libel this site in his semi-coherent forum rantings about how our site was worthless because our ratings did not match his own. As it turns out, according to his own written documentation, he would base reviews on a sample of THREE whole discs. Three. That's not even large enough to qualify as a statistical sample. Other times, he'd make a judgment on poor sample size of anywhere from 10-30 discs -- again, by his own written admissions. I also consider his age, approximately 19-20 years old at the time, to have been a factor in his attitude and lack of understanding. (Between his physical characteristics, the industry of his actual day job, and his commentary style, he's essentially a younger version of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.)

Anyway...

If you want to actually review Blu-ray blanks -- which is something we're doing, but it's simply not finished -- then you'll have to purchase, burn and test thousands of discs, in order to have results of any meaning. And everything has to be done in a controlled manner, by individuals who are trained and knowledgeable on blank discs. That takes a lot of time, and a lot of funds. (And is the main reason our own study has gone so slow.)

Again, I can appreciate what you're trying to do.

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  #6  
03-29-2011, 12:16 PM
jbd5010 jbd5010 is offline
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Just bought my first BD burner about 6 months ago; I wasn't even aware of the LTH and HTL types of Blu-Ray media, great post! As usual, lots of succinct, no-nonsense info in this thread.

Now I'm going to go write some 5-star reviews for Ritek discs and bash on DataLifePlus... juuust kidding
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  #7  
03-23-2014, 01:09 AM
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This "old" (but not outdated! evergreen content!) post was popular this week according to some site analytics. I thought it was worth a bump, as all of the info is still important and accurate.

We need to re-publish that BD-R guide/review series. It's mostly done. This plus MUCH more is on that articles series!

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  #8  
03-25-2014, 07:25 AM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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there is the inorganic dye for CD / DVD / Bluray? I know of no inorganic dye, all I've seen are organic and decomposes
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03-25-2014, 07:57 AM
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M-Disc is inorganic.
And HTL BD-R is inorganic, as explained in the first post of this thread.

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  #10  
03-25-2014, 08:02 AM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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verbatim, cmc, sony taiyo Yuden, Ritek, mam not to use inorganic dye?

sony archival disc is inorganic?
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