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jorel 06-28-2004 03:41 PM

Avisynth versions and results
 
i think that was Jell that wrote months ago something like this:
"my encodes with avisynth 2.0x seems better than with 2.5x versions"
and it was in my head (better than my hair that is rebels....yes,rebel and left me,going away :lol: )then today i was watching the monsters sa that i did using 352x240 mpeg1 with avisynth 208 and temporalcleaner(i still have the script) and the image seems BETTER than my new SKVCDS(480x480)encodes with avisynth2.5x with new filters in movies like: lion king 3,finding nemo..and some cartoons.
believe me, the short sample (preview) from finding nemo in my kvcd monsters sa, seems better than my skvcd of the same movie! 8O
anyone have old encodes with avisynth2.0x to compare quality in little tests, or i'm going crazy? 8O

Encoder Master 06-28-2004 03:50 PM

But SKVCDs are MPEG-2 and MPEG-1 is realy better.

jorel 06-28-2004 04:02 PM

thinking that you're, using your point of view and it seems logic but i ask...:
skvcds are mpeg2, need more space or short CQ and give worse quality,
kvcds are mpeg1, need less space or more CQ, give better quality...
for the same target (same final size)... :? :? :arrow: this seems ilogical!
why we encode skvcds if kvcds give better quality and better compression!?!? :? :?

Dialhot 06-28-2004 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
why we encode skvcds if kvcds give better quality and better compression!?!? :? :?

We ? who is "we" ?
I encode ALL my KVCD in MPEG1 (even is I mux and burn them in SVCD).

Let me remember you that tmpgenc is FREE for MPEG1 and paying for MPEG2 ;-)

Encoder Master 06-28-2004 05:01 PM

Quote:

why we encode skvcds if kvcds give better quality and better compression!?!?
Because of compatibility. Normal MPEG-1 for better quality.

jorel 06-28-2004 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
why we encode skvcds if kvcds give better quality and better compression!?!? :? :?

We ? who is "we" ?
I encode ALL my KVCD in MPEG1 (even is I mux and burn them in SVCD).

Let me remember you that tmpgenc is FREE for MPEG1 and paying for MPEG2 ;-)

well....."we" are "some of us" and not "all" that means "everybody". :lol:

now the old question "what is better":
then what is better for KDVDS? (using ilustratives numbers of movies,ok?)
6 kvcds mpeg1 352x240 with very high CQ(round 90 or more)
or
6 skCvds mpeg2 352x480 with middle CQ(round 60 or 70) :?: :?:
(was not used 480x480 in the answer cos skvcds are not dvd compatibles)

do you know what i mean :?: i was clear :?:

and...if i can use ac3 from the source...will be dvd compatible using kvcds or kCvds for Kdvds :?: :?
what i'm thinking: if mpeg1 352x240 is better and using ac3 , it will be fantastic cos i can put 5 or 6 movies in only one dvd media with very cool quality! right or wrong ?

incredible 06-28-2004 05:20 PM

Also for some members in the forum its not clear that "we" in here do mean by saying sKVCD or KsVCD an mpeg2 encoded stream using notch matrix and KVCD recommended GOP.
Some do still think that the name is due the resolution which is choosen (480x480 or 480x576)

Dialhot 06-28-2004 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
6 kvcds mpeg1 352x240 with very high CQ(round 90 or more)
or
6 skCvds mpeg2 352x480 with middle CQ(round 60 or 70) :?: :?:
(was not used 480x480 in the answer cos skvcds are not dvd compatibles)
do you know what i mean :?: i was clear :?:

I'm just doing a 7 hours (mini serie, 7 ep of 1 hour each, fullscreen) KDVD and I choosed 352*288 MPEG1. So you have my answer. Perhaps others won't have the same.
And I did them in CQ_VBR ! Do remember that this is better than CQ for VCD res :-)

Quote:

and...if i can use ac3 from the source...will be dvd compatible using kvcds or kCvds for Kdvds :?: :?
Yes it is.
DVD standard defines thing in two category separately:
- what is acceptable for video
- what is acceptable for audio

352*240 MPEG1 and 352*480 MPEG are acceptable for video ; ac3 is acceptable for audio. So you can do the mix you want !

Quote:

it will be fantastic cos i can put 5 or 6 movies in only one dvd media with very cool quality! right or wrong ?
You won't fit 6 movies in VCD reso with CQ90 and ac3 !

1 DVD = 4.37 GB. For 6 movie that let you near 700 MB per movie. That is LESS than what you had on a CD ! And ac3 audio take more space than mp2. So the correct CQ won't be 90, for sure !

So your idea is a little hard to realize...

Dialhot 06-28-2004 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by incredible
Some do still think that the name is due the resolution which is choosen (480x480 or 480x576)

That's also why I'll never stop to repeat that the only official name is KVCD. You have MPEG1 KVCD and MPEG2 KVCD. That's so simple (even if a little longer to type) !

"KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix. It enables you to create over 120 minutes of near DVD quality video, depending on your material, on a single 80 minute CD-R/CD-RW. "

Please help me to teach the newbies correctly :-)

Prodater64 06-28-2004 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
That's also why I'll never stop to repeat that the only official name is KVCD. You have MPEG1 KVCD and MPEG2 KVCD. That's so simple (even if a little longer to type) !

"KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix. It enables you to create over 120 minutes of near DVD quality video, depending on your material, on a single 80 minute CD-R/CD-RW. "

Please help me to teach the newbies correctly :-)

Maybe it is a KVCD.net problem. This follows your quoted paragraph:
Quote:

Using KVCD parameters to create DVDs (KDVD), will enable you to create 100% DVD compliant MPEG-2 streams
Also you can reach KVCD.net main page with KDVD.net and KDVD.org links.
And in TMPGEnc templates you can read:
Quote:

SKVCD NTSCFilm
352x480

Avg. 120 minutes
per CD.
SKVCD PAL
352x576

--------------------------
Visit: DockingGate, a powerful tool, by Prodater64.
|--------------------------> New
Visit: DockingGate taskbar, by Prodater64.

Visit: Mencoder scripting with AVSEdit and Guide for Multiple Files by Prodater64.
--------------------------

Dialhot 06-28-2004 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodater64
Maybe it is a KVCD.net problem. This follows your quoted paragraph:
Quote:
Using KVCD parameters to create DVDs (KDVD), will enable you to create 100% DVD compliant MPEG-2 streams

Yes it is ! That proves that KVCd can be used either for MPEG1 or MPEG2. Look at the following paragraph :
" We have published these specifications as KVCDx3, our official resolution, which produce 528x480 (NTSC) and 528x576 (PAL) MPEG-1 variable bit rate video"

You see : two sentences, two times the word "KVCD" used, the first time to speak of MPEG2, the second time for MPEG1 !

Quote:

SKVCD NTSCFilm
352x480

Avg. 120 minutes
per CD.
SKVCD PAL
352x576
This is an old template that is the pending on the old MPEG1 template that I use to call "KVCDx2" templates (even if I invented that name). And they are still there "for History".

But look at the lastest templates, KVCDx3, they have same name whatever the format. And these are the only official ones now.
(even if a lot of people hesitates to use them as they are stuck to official resolution, not to say to VCD resolution ! :-().

Prodater64 06-28-2004 07:29 PM

Then, as I would like all people here talks with same (corrects) words, I want to be one of the first ones. Could you tell me how to call KDVD type (you did not mention it before).
Thanks Phil.

Dialhot 06-28-2004 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodater64
Then, as I would like all people here talks with same (corrects) words, I want to be one of the first ones. Could you tell me how to call KDVD type (you did not mention it before).
Thanks Phil.

For me KDVD are materials that follow strictly the DVD specifications. So you should tell if they are MPEG1 or MPEG2 only if you use VCD resolution. For all others, only MPEG2 is standard and so, no need to tell it.

jorel 06-29-2004 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
I'm just doing a 7 hours (mini serie, 7 ep of 1 hour each, fullscreen) KDVD and I choosed 352*288 MPEG1. So you have my answer. Perhaps others won't have the same.
And I did them in CQ_VBR ! Do remember that this is better than CQ for VCD res :-)

oh yes, i remember about CQ_VBR :wink:
then... 7 hours with full screen, 352*2xx mpeg1, CQ_VBR...!
and your answer have big weight.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
DVD standard defines thing in two category separately:
- what is acceptable for video
- what is acceptable for audio

352*240 MPEG1 and 352*480 MPEG are acceptable for video ; ac3 is acceptable for audio. So you can do the mix you want !

hey Phil, it's better than expected. :)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
You won't fit 6 movies in VCD reso with CQ90 and ac3 !

1 DVD = 4.37 GB. For 6 movie that let you near 700 MB per movie. That is LESS than what you had on a CD ! And ac3 audio take more space than mp2. So the correct CQ won't be 90, for sure !

So your idea is a little hard to realize...

oh yes, very clear...well, my choice is ~5 hours with ac3 for one KDVD...
no need more than ~5 hours with CQ90 and with AC3-5.1.
for me, it's better than 6 or 7 hours with mp2....very very cool! :D
it's a big party Phil :!: thank you VM !
:ole:

jorel 06-29-2004 03:52 PM

Phil...i forgot to ask: :oops:
and about the CQ_VBR value,GOP,VBV buffer and Min/Max bitrate in tmpgenc for KDVDs ntsc ? :?

Dialhot 06-29-2004 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
Phil...i forgot to ask: :oops:
and about the CQ_VBR value,GOP,VBV buffer and Min/Max bitrate in tmpgenc for KDVDs ntsc ? :?

For my job with 7h of full screen video ? I used 64 as min, 2000 as max, VBV on 0 (automatic), GOP 1-5823-2-1-25 (24 for NTSC).

Be carrefull : all these parameters are the same than I use for my KVCD because I know that my player support them on a DVD ! In fact I have 3 players and they all support this. Did someone have problems with long GOP in KDVD ?

Note: 2000 as maximum for a VCD resolution if largely enought.

jorel 06-29-2004 04:26 PM

very cool Phil (3 players too? :) ) cos my 3 player run with min64 without problems.

:arrow: thank you thank you my friend! :D

Phil, you did a great new guide here:
:idea: title
" build your Kdvd with 7 hours of kvcds mpeg1! "
...why not? 8)

Dialhot 06-29-2004 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
" build your Kdvd with 7 hours of kvcds mpeg1! "
...why not? 8)

Lol. I'm not really a "guide man", I just share my experiences :-)

jorel 06-29-2004 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
" build your Kdvd with 7 hours of kvcds mpeg1! "
...why not? 8)

Lol. I'm not really a "guide man", I just share my experiences :-)

but "it's done" Phil, you only need to post a new thread and write the same in order,
:arrow: nothing more(only remove my questions).
...the best is: easy result without problems cos who can do kvcds can follow your guide! :wink:

jorel 07-05-2004 11:02 AM

after 5 full encodes (toy story-cartoons) the results of the tests!

kvcd mpeg1(352*2xx with tmpgenc) is worse than kvcd mpeg2 352*xxx using CCE or Tmpgenc !

kdvds using CCE or Tmpgenc have despicables diferences in quality !

all encodes using the kvcd notch matrix, the same filters in the script for the same size target....1,4Gb for each!

then, like i wrote in the first post:
Quote:

Originally Posted by jorel
"my encodes with avisynth 2.0x seems better than with 2.5x versions"

:? my first doubt stills alive :arrow: but for kvcds mpeg1 only!

it all means: 8O oh my GOD :!: how can it be?!?!


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