Quantcast KVCD: Good Experiences So Far! - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
08-06-2004, 06:00 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, it's my first post so I'll make it here ...

Wanted to put whole movies onto one CD, so I decided to look into KVCD. I used vmesquita's guide for CCE/TMPGEnc (I used CCE) and made an extremely impressive KVCD on my first try. Movie was only 90 minutes and was full-frame. Looked and sounded great! I made a second disc from another movie, and it too was terrific!

I've got 2 players that can handle these. One is an old Apex (AD-500WM), and a recently purchased Cyberhome CH-300 (I tell ya, this sucker plays *everything* you throw at it, and for under 40 bucks!). But the Apex doesn't seem to play the KSVCD correctly. I had played a disc in it before that purported to be a "KVCD," and it played fine, so I was confused until I realized that, with MPEG-2, I had made a KSVCD. So now I wanna try a regular KVCD with MPEG-1 to see if it will work.

I settled on a 1:25-long XviD movie, and chose a 528 x 480 MPEG-1 TMPGEnc template from this site (I have always used CCE in the past, so this will be a bit new for me). Anyway, I pound out my script and load the script in VirtualDub, but the movie's too tall. The original AVI has a 2.35:1 A/R, and my script is making it appear about like it's 1.85:1 (it just looks straight-up funky, I tell ya )

I'm still using the script from vmesquitas' Tutorial, but it doesn't seem to have any built-in modifiers for aspect ratio. My first two conversions were both full frame, so I didn't have this problem. Here's the relevant portion:
Code:
m_width=528

#Resize, overscan and borders
gripCrop(m_width, 480, overscan=myoverscan,source_anamorphic=false,dest_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="lanczosresize")
GripBorders()
I'm familiar with "lanczosresize," which I use often for resizing for DVD burns, but I don't know anything about these plugins, or if modifying this script with my own resizing commands might affect the plugins or screw up any "K" standards.

Any suggestions on where to turn next, or on how to resize correctly?

Thanks!

-abs
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Site Staff / Ad Manager
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
08-06-2004, 06:26 AM
gamma gamma is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Rotterdam (The Netherlands)
Posts: 237
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi absinthe,

Welcome to the KVCD party!

The easiest way to do correct resizing is using Moviestacker. This program loads your source file and calculates the correct resizing parameters.

Also keep in mind that when doing MPEG-1 KVCD you should better use TMPGEnc, as it provides better quality for mpeg1. For MPEG-2, stay at CCE.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
08-06-2004, 08:48 PM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, second experience (third, really) not so good

Ironically, it's the oversimplified guides that I find hard to understand. Vmesquitas' went into a good bit of detail, but after taking the time to follow it I understood fairly well the process of making K(S)VCD/DVDs. It unfortunately just doesn't explain anything about manual resizing. There seem to be AviSynth plugins that do this automatically in most cases, but it doesn't work for my 2.35:1 flick.

I decided to throw caution to the wind and try a quickie guide from the front site page that basically just said to load my .avi source into TMPGEnc, load the proper template (which I downloaded), and encode. Well, that produced an .m1v file that was way too big (however, it was the right aspect ratio) and an audio file that didn't seem to contain any sound.

Guess I'm gonna have to hang out in the scripts forum if I'm gonna figure this out.

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #4  
08-06-2004, 08:55 PM
bigggt bigggt is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IamCanadian
Posts: 848
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
HI

Quote:
Well, that produced an .m1v file that was way too big (however, it was the right aspect ratio) and an audio file that didn't seem to contain any sound.
THis is because you need to do Predcition to get the proper CQ and as for the audio all templates come with no audio,it is an extra step you need to take or you can select ausio in tmpge manually
__________________
Bigggt
Reply With Quote
  #5  
08-07-2004, 01:52 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Okay,

I've checked out CQMatic and given that a go. Of course the first thing I discovered was the "89.77" error, so after reading about two-dozen forum threads (man, one of these days there's going to be something video-related that doesn't have a sharp learning curve) I ran the prediction process for a third time and got a value I think I can use.

Of course it'll be 6 or 8 hours from now until I know how it turns out, but I'll let you know

Still not sure why TMPGEnc didn't process the audio, because in fact I did alter the settings on my first go-round to produce 2 elementary streams. But no matter, I can always extract and process it separately if I can just figure out the video part.

One thing I am slightly confused about. What I've done is use CalcuMatic to determine the "average bit rate." That's the number I plugged into CQMatic for prediction. So now I understand that I should plug the number that appeared below the avg. bitrate (the *.57 average) into TMPGEnc, but am not sure if it's supposed to be the min or max bitrate. As such ...



Do you know which is right? Am I on the right track here?

Thanks,

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #6  
08-07-2004, 04:03 AM
Anerboda Anerboda is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 132
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi absinthe

And welcome to the forum ...

The *57 bitrate was earlier used as the min bitrate, but I don't think anyone is using it anymore (in earlier versions it gave a more accurate prediction). Just use 300 for min and 2300 for max, thats what I use.
Some standalone players don't like min bitrate as low as 300, and some others don't care if it's even as low as 64. But start with min=300.
As for the max bitrate it is depending on the length of your movie, for a 90 minutes movie the 2300 would do, and if it's longer you might wan't to lower the max to 2000 or even 1800.

Hope this helps to get you a little further...Others may contribute with other hints

-Anerboda
Reply With Quote
  #7  
08-07-2004, 06:52 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anerboda
Hi absinthe

And welcome to the forum ...
Hi there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anerboda
Just use 300 for min and 2300 for max, thats what I use.
Some standalone players don't like min bitrate as low as 300, and some others don't care if it's even as low as 64. But start with min=300.
As for the max bitrate it is depending on the length of your movie, for a 90 minutes movie the 2300 would do, and if it's longer you might wan't to lower the max to 2000 or even 1800.
Ok, cool. Still confused, though. So do you mean that if I'm using TMPGEnc, and I'm using an appropriate template, the only thing to change internally in the encoder itself that will affect quality is the Quality ("Q") setting? I mean, if that's the case, why did I plug an "average bitrate" from CalcuMatic into CQMatic? I mean, what purpose will that number serve for me? Knowhatimean?

I want to point out again that I'm shooting for a KVCD here (i.e., not KSVCD), and I guess I'm pointing that out because I'm sort of fuzzy on the difference between KVCD and KSVCD. It doesn't seem stressed too much around here. Is the only difference that KVCD uses MPG-1 and KSVCD MPG-2? I ask of course because in the so-called "official" specifications there are other differences between VCD and SVCD.

Seems like on my first encoding attempt with this project, I just plugged the .avi into TMPGEnc, loaded up the template, and pressed "Start." I ended up with an MPG that was about 100 MB too big, and I'm assuming that the "Q" factor was at its default of 60. Well, my newly calculated Q is 80.68, so if that's all I change I can't see how I'll get a smaller file ... in fact, it seems like I'd get a bigger one!

If I just drop the min. bitrate down to 64 (and of course change the Q), will that do the trick? If that's the case, then I still don't see what I needed the "average bitrate" that I got with CalcuMatic for ....

Man, am I ever full of questions . . . . Sorry

On a brighter note, I just upgraded to the commerical version of VCDEasy, and while setting it up, I noticed that under Settings > Warnings there was an option to: "Don't show a compliance warning when adding a KVCD.net compliant MPG file." COOL!

Thanks for the help thus far!

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #8  
08-07-2004, 07:16 AM
Nobody Nobody is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 0
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hey absinthe first of all which template are you using and what are the movie spec's
Reply With Quote
  #9  
08-07-2004, 07:41 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by smarty_123
Hey absinthe first of all which template are you using and what are the movie spec's
Hi. I'm using the NTSC 528 x 480 MPG1 template.

Here's my AVI's specs.

Length: 1:25:04
A/R: 640 x 272 (2.35:1)
FPS: 23.97
audio: MP3 VBR 48Hz

Which reminds me of another question I have: Do you have to stick with 224 kbps for audio for KVCD, as is required for regular VCD?

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
08-07-2004, 07:47 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by absinthe
Which reminds me of another question I have: Do you have to stick with 224 kbps for audio for KVCD, as is required for regular VCD?
For sure not. We generally use 128 but with 112 your ears can be pleased enought. Do a test.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
08-07-2004, 04:40 PM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by absinthe
Which reminds me of another question I have: Do you have to stick with 224 kbps for audio for KVCD, as is required for regular VCD?
For sure not. We generally use 128 but with 112 your ears can be pleased enought. Do a test.
That's sorta what I thought. Thanks

Can anyone clue me in about my queries above before I start TMPGEnc on a 7+ hour encode job? Boy, it sure is slower than CCE ... but I'm told TMPGEnc actually does a better job with MPEG1 encodes. And I'd still like to know if there's any difference between KVCD and KSVCD besides the video being MPEG1 or MPEG2 ...

Thanks for the help, ya'll ! ...

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #12  
08-07-2004, 04:52 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by absinthe
if there's any difference between KVCD and KSVCD besides the video being MPEG1 or MPEG2 ...
Actually there is a big difference : KSVCD does not exist

You have MPEG1 KVCD and MPEG2 KVCD and in the past you had also SKVCD that used a 352*480(576) template.

It's a very BAD habit that some people here have to call MPEG2 KVCD "KSVCD".
Reply With Quote
  #13  
08-07-2004, 05:34 PM
Zyphon Zyphon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London, England (UK)
Posts: 1,035
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
It's a very BAD habit that some people here have to call MPEG2 KVCD "KSVCD".
I guess old habbits die hard as they say Phil.
__________________
Regards.

Michael.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
08-07-2004, 06:44 PM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Actually there is a big difference : KSVCD does not exist

You have MPEG1 KVCD and MPEG2 KVCD and in the past you had also SKVCD that used a 352*480(576) template.

It's a very BAD habit that some people here have to call MPEG2 KVCD "KSVCD".
Ah, well that certainly clears that up. Thanks

I suppose the only difference then would lie in whether you authored as noncompliant VCD (with MPEG1) or noncompliant SVCD (with MPEG2). Obviously the discs would be laid out differently (the VCD with a "VCD" folder and the MPEG in a "DAT" file vs. the SVCD with an "SVCD" folder and the MPEG in an "MPG" file, among whatever other differences).

I'm only interested in this because I have a stubborn Apex player on which I know I've watched a KVCD disc before, and it played fine. But my own MPEG-2 KVCDs (burned as noncompliant SVCD) play rather strangely (i.e. it only seems to take up the leftmost 3/4 of the screen, and in the far right quarter you can still see the DVD player's idling background flickering). However, these same discs of my own will play just fine in my Cyberhome CH-300. In fact, they play great! I found my Apex player in another database (it doesn't seem to be listed on the one at this site), and it indicated that it played KVCD's fine, but there was a "?" next to "KSVCD."

So what I'm getting at is I want to try encoding as noncompliant VCD with MPEG1 video to see if maybe this Apex player can handle that correctly. I just don't have any experience with MPEG1 encoding. MPEG2 via AviSynth+CCE for DVD/SVCD has always served my purposes in the past. But if I can get the MPEG1 discs to look good and play in both of my players, I might start going with that.

Advice?

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #15  
08-07-2004, 07:55 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,463
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by absinthe
I suppose the only difference then would lie in whether you authored as noncompliant VCD (with MPEG1) or noncompliant SVCD (with MPEG2).
There is somethign about that yes. Personalyl I encode all my KVCD in MPEG1 and mux/burn then in SVCD as all my players take that very well where MPEG1/VCD gives trouble to the pioneer.

Quote:
But if I can get the MPEG1 discs to look good and play in both of my players, I miht start going with that.
MPEG1 in tmpgenc is better than MPEG2, that is why I use it.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
08-08-2004, 12:05 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Personalyl I encode all my KVCD in MPEG1 and mux/burn then in SVCD as all my players take that very well where MPEG1/VCD gives trouble to the pioneer.
I think I've tried that ... or rather it's opposite: I authored MPEG2 as noncompliant VCD in VCDEasy (using the same MPEG2 file that worked just fine authored as noncompliant SVCD), but it didn't work. But that is interesting, and it makes me wonder how many people do that.

Can anyone answer my original question (above, in my third and fourth posts from the top) about where in TMPGEnc to put the bitrate found with CalcuMatic (if it should be used at all)?

-abs
Reply With Quote
  #17  
08-08-2004, 05:09 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Okay ... Cool! I've had some success with a small, 3-minute test file I clipped from an AVI.

Some points:

* This is my first time doing serious encoding of MPEG1 (I've always used MPEG2), and new to me is the information that you don't need 3:2 pulldown for NTSC 23.976 fps. Hey, that might seem obvious to a lot of you, but this is the kind of simple point I wish someone would put in a sticky somewhere and save a lot of us a lot of grief.

Also interesting to point out is that the absolute 23.976 framerate will work even when muxing and authoring as SVCD (which generally does require pulldown ... you're authoring/burning program may give you warnings on this).

* In my Apex player, I've found that the 352 x 240 template works (constant quality 70). In the morning I'll test that with my CyberHome player (the wife is sleeping in that room right now ). I don't anticipate any problems there as the CyberHome model plays everything I throw at it. The video quality is very acceptable, but I'm keeping in mind that no AviSynth script was used and no other filters at all were applied, so I think it could definitely be improved from good to great!

* Another little point I wish someone would put in a sticky somewhere. If you don't know which template to use (in terms of aspect ratio), there's a great little feature on the TMPGEnc file menu known as PREVIEW. Choose your input file (or script), select your template and other settings, and check out the preview. If the A/R is all screwed up, well then try another ... easy to get the right one this way. I don't think I've ever seen this mentioned anywhere.

* I used bbMPEG to mux, and muxed as SVCD, being sure to check "VBR." (thanks for the tip there, DialHot)

* Author/burn or just plain burn the muxed MPEG as noncompliant SVCD.

I'm pretty excited about exploring KVCD authoring with MPEG1 further. I'm used to encoding for DVD, and the great thing about this is how darned fast it encodes at 352x240! DVD encoding for a 2-hour movie takes half a day, and even MPEG1 encoding in TMPGEnc for a 90-minute movie took me nearly 7 hours, but judging by how quickly my 3-minute sample encoded I ought to be able to encode at 352x240 MPEG1 in almost real time (I realize this may get longer after adding filters or if using a script). If I can find a script to sharpen things up to my liking, I may become an MPEG1 fan after all!

Now if I can just figure out prediction, so I can encode a whole movie ... and get a good script going. ugg ...


-abs
Reply With Quote
  #18  
08-08-2004, 06:42 AM
black prince black prince is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
@absinthe,

Here's a good script to start with:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3483

Here's a filesize prediction utility:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5145


-BP
Reply With Quote
  #19  
08-09-2004, 01:32 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by black prince
@absinthe,

Here's a good script to start with:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3483

Here's a filesize prediction utility:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5145


-BP
Thanks. I will of course try them both.

I note that in the case of the scripts, they are supposed to be for "clean" or DVD material. I want to convert some AVIs, so I'm wondering if those scripts are appropriate. I wonder if I couldn't use the script in vmesquitas' divx/DVD-to-KDVD/K(S)VCD guide, just making appropriate changes regarding aspect ratio and so forth.

This is the script I mean:
Code:
######################################################################
# Based on Optimized Script to remove DCT Blocks by Girv and DialHot #
######################################################################
##############
# Parameters #
##############
#Use 720 or 352 to KDVD, 528 352 to K(S)VCD
m_width=720
subtitle="name_of_the_subtitle.smi" # Add a # in the beginning of this line if you
#don't need subtitles.movie="name of the movie.avi"
myoverscan=1 # Test values from 0 to 3 here. Bigger files produce more quality but
#a value too big will cause undesirable black borders on your TV.
##########
# script #
##########
AVISource(movie,false)
#Post-Process
Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max=8,variance=0.3,seed=5823)
ATC(1,2,4,0.5,false)
TemporalSoften(2,7,7,3,2)
Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max=10,variance=0.5,seed=5823)
#
Resize, overscan and borders
gripCrop(m_width, 480, overscan=myoverscan,source_anamorphic=false,dest_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="lanczosresize")
GripBorders()
#Subtitles #
############
TextSub(subtitle) # Add a # in the begining of this line if you don't need
subtitles.
converttoyuy2()
--------------------------------------- end of script -------------------------
-abs
Reply With Quote
  #20  
08-09-2004, 01:38 AM
absinthe absinthe is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Oh, sorry ... I just found DialHot's scripts in the DivX/XviD forum. Guess I'll give those a shot.

-abs
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My KVCD experiences and tips to help others! dredj Video Encoding and Conversion 4 07-31-2003 10:42 PM
KVCD doesn't look good enough? vdermerwedz Video Encoding and Conversion 0 12-22-2002 02:50 AM
KVCD: Good quality on 1 cd? n00b saibot Video Encoding and Conversion 2 11-15-2002 07:36 PM
KVCD: Is it really that good ? Daznic Video Encoding and Conversion 0 09-04-2002 04:15 AM
KVCD new beta template - user experiences, tweaks and hacks? kwag Video Encoding and Conversion 56 07-19-2002 07:30 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 PM  —  vBulletin Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd