Quantcast KVCD: Quality Showdown - Resolution vs. CQ for File Size? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
09-10-2002, 10:18 PM
Grantman Grantman is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Northfield, IL
Posts: 102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Grantman Send a message via AIM to Grantman Send a message via MSN to Grantman Send a message via Yahoo to Grantman
Kwag,

I have read just about every post in these formus. (Yes... I have too much free time on my hands).

I have also tested just about every approach given and (of couse) I keep finding that your suggestions are always better than the other alternative suggestions.

One thing that has not been touched on is EXACTLY how resolution and the CQ value on templates work towards maintaining quality while reducing file size.

Specifically, if the end result is going to a VCD played on a non-HDTV output (standard NTSC), then isn't anything over 352x240 just wasted resolution?

I have found that the KVCD 3 MPEG1 template looks just about perfect at a CQ of 12 and I can get very close to 120 min of DVD ripped video.

Here is the question? When you are pushing the envelope on lowering file size why not bring down resolution to 352x240? Why not bring CD below 12? Will lowering the max bit rate do much (if it is not a high action video sequence). What about lowering the low end bit rate?

The templates rock. So many movies are not fitting on 1 CD that I just want to see how far I can push this.

I don't have enough knowledge of the encoder or MPEG to know exactly how CQ and resolution play off each other for file size.

At the end of the day there are only so many bits that can be in the file. Those bits have to be read by the DVD player in a known format. I am confident that if compatability is not an issue then VCD is the way to go over SVCD because there will be less wasted resolution if you are outputting to a regular TV via S-Video.

I know this opens up a ton of discussions. I am just trying to make sure the choices I make are based on knowledge. Your suggestion about using HeadAC3he was so right that I am addicted.

(And I have not given up on you getting checks from TMPGEnc. Pegasys should double the price and include your templates in their retail version. You could live off the royalties with time keep posting!)

Thanks,

Grantman
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Site Staff / Ad Manager
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
09-10-2002, 11:16 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Stay tuned Grantman
I've been cranking a new template since yesterday. The KVCD-LBR (Low Bit Rate ) to allow +-180 on a CD.
If I finish the tests, and I get good reports , then it will be released soon.

Here's a taste:
http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-lobby.mpg

That sample is 3 minutes and 36 seconds. File size ~18MB

This is really designed for "convenience" with a good quality/size balance. It's not designed to view on HDTV's. It should look very good on just about any TV set. Up to 27" or so. Perfect for travelers to take on planes, and for portable DVD players with small screens.
Who knows, maybe the quality is good enough for many people, and you'll fit just about any movie on a single 80 minute CD-R

Again, stay tuned

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #3  
09-11-2002, 12:03 AM
Bud Bud is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 241
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via MSN to Bud
Kwag

Just ran test on your "New Template" Used Nero 5.5.9.9, Pioneer DV 343 and my Panasonic LV55 Portable, looks great on the small screen (I do travel a LOT) on the big screen, needs some work, but as you said, this is for traveling. On my Sony 61" played good, not very sharp, on my Sony 36" looks very good, so all I can say is keep up the good work....by the way I start my traveling next week....will be taking a lot of CD's thanks to you and all your very hard work.......will be looking forward to runing a complete movie with the new template.........

Aloha
Bud
Reply With Quote
  #4  
09-11-2002, 12:11 AM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
Kwag

Just ran test on your "New Template" Used Nero 5.5.9.9, Pioneer DV 343 and my Panasonic LV55 Portable, looks great on the small screen (I do travel a LOT) on the big screen, needs some work, but as you said, this is for traveling. On my Sony 61" played good, not very sharp, on my Sony 36" looks very good, so all I can say is keep up the good work....by the way I start my traveling next week....will be taking a lot of CD's thanks to you and all your very hard work.......will be looking forward to runing a complete movie with the new template.........

Aloha
Bud
Thanks for trying that out Bud
The resolution is 352x240, so we're squeezing the last quality drop out of TMPEG and KVCD
I also burned the sample and watched it on my 5" portable DVD, and it looks very good. Even on my 60" Magnavox rear screen projection, it's pretty good. On my HDTV, you can see the artifacts. But hey, I think it's pretty good for fitting 180 minutes on a CD! I believe it's a very watchable mpeg file

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #5  
09-11-2002, 12:37 AM
cybermage26 cybermage26 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 17
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via MSN to cybermage26
This new template that your creating sounds very interesting.
Watched the sample, its not bad at all, the file size is amazing for such a high action scene. Compared to the standard VCD template which would of made the file 35mb.. 18mb is impressive

Would come in handy for sure!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
09-11-2002, 01:40 AM
Grantman Grantman is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Northfield, IL
Posts: 102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Grantman Send a message via AIM to Grantman Send a message via MSN to Grantman Send a message via Yahoo to Grantman
Check out this URL:

http://forum.vcdhelp.com/userguides/98177.php

I am not suggesting I buy into CVD. I like where Kwag is going with the templates...

But there is some nice technical detail to be learned in this article. Some of the ideas/concepts are useful in tweaking these templates.

There is some specific details about max quality for S-Video on an analog TV. I have a 35" Sony Trinitron and I think the KVCD templates look great. :P The news about a possible 1 CD solution for less important content is exactly what I have been hoping for with the tweaking.

Of couse anything worth value long term I would put on multiple CDs. I just like the 1 CD solution for movies that are not A-List.

Once again... Kwag is the man. You were there before I even asked and like always... instead of just answering you have presentes too. :P

What more can you ask for?

(FYI... I am willing to help test templates. I am running about 125% of real time when encoding with the KVCD 3 templates. A 120 minute movie takes about 150 minutes max to encode.)

System specs
=========
Athlon 1900+ (Overclocked to 2000+)
512 MB RAM
(2) 80 GB Western Digital Special Edition
GeForce 4 Ti 4400 (overclocked to 300/600)
Windows XP with all current Codecs and updates

Of couse I also want to see the goodies early whenver possible. :P

Thanks again for all your work Kwag. I appreciate it on a daily basis.


Grantman
Reply With Quote
  #7  
09-11-2002, 08:32 AM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grantman
Check out this URL:

http://forum.vcdhelp.com/userguides/98177.php

I am not suggesting I buy into CVD. I like where Kwag is going with the templates...

But there is some nice technical detail to be learned in this article. Some of the ideas/concepts are useful in tweaking these templates.

There is some specific details about max quality for S-Video on an analog TV. I have a 35" Sony Trinitron and I think the KVCD templates look great. :P The news about a possible 1 CD solution for less important content is exactly what I have been hoping for with the tweaking.

Of couse anything worth value long term I would put on multiple CDs. I just like the 1 CD solution for movies that are not A-List.

Once again... Kwag is the man. You were there before I even asked and like always... instead of just answering you have presentes too. :P

What more can you ask for?

(FYI... I am willing to help test templates. I am running about 125% of real time when encoding with the KVCD 3 templates. A 120 minute movie takes about 150 minutes max to encode.)

System specs
=========
Athlon 1900+ (Overclocked to 2000+)
512 MB RAM
(2) 80 GB Western Digital Special Edition
GeForce 4 Ti 4400 (overclocked to 300/600)
Windows XP with all current Codecs and updates

Of couse I also want to see the goodies early whenver possible. :P

Thanks again for all your work Kwag. I appreciate it on a daily basis.


Grantman
Hi Grantman,
Thanks for the link and comments.
Try the SKVCD template. It was created as a step up from a standard CVD. It's the "CVD substitute on steroids"
It has the same specifications that a CVD has, but by using our own GOP and Q.Matrix, you get far longer playing time, while maintaining the same or better picture quality. If your player supports CVD playback, then it will also play SKVCD.

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #8  
09-11-2002, 05:00 PM
Grantman Grantman is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Northfield, IL
Posts: 102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Grantman Send a message via AIM to Grantman Send a message via MSN to Grantman Send a message via Yahoo to Grantman
I am very interested in the new templates you are cooking up. But until then the SKVCD worked very well for what I am trying to do.

There is do doubt it is not a sharp as the K3s and there is occational "noise" around low movement (like someone's head or arm when standing still with slight movement).

When trying to get more out of these to fit 1 CD is is preferable to lower resolution or CQ. The output is going to a regular TV connected to a standalone DVD player. So far this thing plays all formats so the only limitation is me.

Specifically... what does the 352 x 480 resolution buy you over 352 x 240 if you have to lower the CQ to compensate? Is there a benefit to the K3 resolution with lower CQ?

I know I am beating this into the ground but I just want to understand how a higher CQ vs. higher resolution can be compared. Also, being that I am not concerned with anything above NTSC (S-Video) what can I drop without noticeable difference?

Unrelated note:

I do not like MPEG Mediator... To many glitches with VOB files not being picked up in order regardless of the order in the input box. Missing pieces in the output and a more difficult time with sync on the remux process.

But I love the process you gave me about doing the audio/video seperate. I can't believe I ever did it the other way. Now I just take the AC3 output right to HeadAC3he and the results are AWSOME at 128 bit. My audio set up far outweighs my video so I would pick up subtle quality issues. NOTHING...

In fact, the quality coming right from the AC3 stream instead of the WAV file that MPEG Mediator creates seems to noticibly improve quality. I am only decoding Dolby Surround not digital but it sounds excellent. The dual channel at 128 is so good that I did not pick up much difference between the original DVD and the VCD I burnt.

Thanks, thanks, thanks... :P :P :P :P :P
Reply With Quote
  #9  
09-11-2002, 06:43 PM
black prince black prince is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Kwag,

Downloaded matrix-lobby.mpeg for a look see. Played it my PC
(WinDVD) and TV (27"). Here's my subjective opinion. For the
size (18.3MB) it looked good on my TV provided you sit at least
10 to 15 feet back. There was some bolckiness as Neo entered the
turn-stile. But generally the action is stable and quality is good.
When "Green Mile" hit the video stores, I bought a VCD version from
the internet. This three hour movie is on one CD. It was and
still is excellent picture quality. I don't know how it was mastered but,
I have never been able to get quality like that on one CD (650MB)
three hours plus. The only method that came near that is GKnot
where the bitrates are based on the movie length, aspect ratio,
and number of cd's used. I know this is VCD and file size prediction
is difficult but, if you could, then allocating bitrates for the best picture
quality is the way to go. For example, if less than 120 minutes
min=500, max=1550, etc. To test this you need movies of various
lengths and testers to tell you which setting are working. Even with
KVCDx3, depending on the movie length certain VBR_CQ, min, and
max settings are getting better results then the default settings.
I try new settings based on comments of those who post a specific
movie and their settings. I keep track of movies that are similar and
with test clips check them out on new but similar movies. In general this
does work. Keep up the good work.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
09-11-2002, 06:54 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by black prince
Kwag,

When "Green Mile" hit the video stores, I bought a VCD version from
the internet. This three hour movie is on one CD. It was and
still is excellent picture quality. I don't know how it was mastered but,
I have never been able to get quality like that on one CD (650MB)
three hours plus.
Stay tuned. That's one of the films I'm using for testing the template
I'll post a sample on this one, so you can compare to your commercial VCD. It would be great help if you could cut a one minute clip from your VCD and post it. That way I can measure that against what I'm trying to acomplish.

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #11  
09-11-2002, 10:00 PM
black prince black prince is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi Kwag,

I'd be happy to send a 1 minute clip, if I only knew how
to edit the mpeg. What tools would I use and how do I
send this clip to you

-black prince
Reply With Quote
  #12  
09-11-2002, 10:07 PM
herndon herndon is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 26
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
its looks great !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
09-11-2002, 10:16 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by black prince
Hi Kwag,

I'd be happy to send a 1 minute clip, if I only knew how
to edit the mpeg. What tools would I use and how do I
send this clip to you

-black prince
You should be able to open the .dat file in your VCD with TMPEG. If not, copy it to your hard drive, and run VCDGear. With VCDGear you convert the .dat to .mpg. Then run TMPEG TOOLS and cut off a piece
When you have that, call me up again, PM me about ftp'ing the file.

-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #14  
09-11-2002, 10:22 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's what's cooking in the oven for you guys:
http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/greenmile-lbr.mpg
No audio. Video only. Actually I encoded audio stream of 112Kbps, but it's dummy ( silent ) stream.

That's a sample from the latest BETA KVCD-LBR ( Low Bit Rate ) template that's in the oven. Estimated run time from the template's mpegs is between 160 to 180 minutes at that quality. Still on the final tweaks. Hopefully it will be released tomorrow

Stay tuned
-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #15  
09-12-2002, 06:57 AM
TKS TKS is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 118
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That looked amazing.. Both the Green Mile and the Matrix scene...

I think the Green Mile is a bit better though, but i guess it might be because its more of a night scene.. I find all the little shadows and lighting in some scenes do bring out the limitations in mpeg though, but considering.. WOW!

tks
Reply With Quote
  #16  
09-12-2002, 12:21 PM
black prince black prince is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi Kwag,

I quickly downloaded "greenmile-lbr.mpeg" and compared this clip
with my commercial VCD version. Your clip is so close in quality,
that sending you a sample would be moot. I decided to use an unfair
test and sat 2 feet from my 27" TV to view your clip. There was a
slight krona around people and distant objects were a little fuzzy.
The commercial VCD was sharper with the same slight krona and fuzziness.
Probably avisynth could add the same sharpness the commercial has.
Sitting back 7 to 8 feet, the quality was very good. What excites me
is that you are still tweaking. On my laptop the picture is outstanding.
If you can fit "The Green Mile" on one 800MB or even 900MB CD with
this quality, then KVCD will become the standard for all VCD encoding.
My wish in backing up DVD is 1) High picture quality, 2) fits on 1 CD,
and 3) can be played on laptop, stand-alone DVD player, etc. You may
have made my wish come true.

-black prince
Reply With Quote
  #17  
09-12-2002, 01:57 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by black prince
If you can fit "The Green Mile" on one 800MB or even 900MB CD with
this quality, then KVCD will become the standard for all VCD encoding.
My wish in backing up DVD is 1) High picture quality, 2) fits on 1 CD,
and 3) can be played on laptop, stand-alone DVD player, etc. You may
have made my wish come true.

-black prince
I did 812,899MB
"The Green Mile" without final credits. Total time on the CD is 3 hours, 30 seconds and audio at 64Kbps ( Processed with headac3he ) and sounds excelent. I know this movie is an extreme example, because the aspect is almost full screen. But it fits!, at the quality you saw in that sample.
Will post the template later this afternoon. I just burned it to CD, and watched it on our 60" Magnavox TV. Because it's not a HDTV, it looks like a good VCD. On my HDTV, you can see small artifacts on some scenes, and distant objects. On close objects, there's hardly any difference from a regular VCD. I'm still ROTFLMAO
Here's the second and last sample. This one does have audio. 60 seconds and 4.25 MB http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/greenmile2-lbr.mpg

Here's the template ( unofficial until I post it ), so start having fun
http://www.kvcd.net/KVCD-LBR-352x240-(NTSCFilm)-PLUS.mcf
I will make the official post in a couple of hours in the "What's new" section.

Comments ALWAYS welcome

Enjoy,
-kwag
Reply With Quote
  #18  
09-12-2002, 04:44 PM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: san jose, Ca
Posts: 1,148
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
hey all,

I'm very glad you've made this template because I haven't yet been able to fit more than about 90 minutes of full screen, 29.97 fps captured video on one 80 min cd and I think this template will solve the problem. Also for long movies that I'm not too particular about having the best quality.

I made a 3 minute sample of "Pearl Harbor" with this template. It has 112 kbps audio and it's not a "happy" scene but I wanted a high action one::
http://www.angelfire.com/film/rendal...mple_lbr00.mpg

To me the sample is very watchable from about 6 feet away on my standard 27" television. I have this movie on two cds with the 352x480 PLUS template and the quality is undeniably better but 180 minutes on 1 cd not bad at all!!

I think it's great to have an array of different templates for different applications. Maybe later down the road there'll be a 4 hour template- KVCD VLBR (very low bitrate)

thx,
ren
Reply With Quote
  #19  
09-12-2002, 05:15 PM
pacodoni pacodoni is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 78
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to pacodoni
Hi Kwag.

I've downloaded the samples, and the template is very good

Of course that you see differences between the other KVCD's, but, hey, it's 180 min/CD

Now i started Braveheart, a 177 min movie, just for test, and take a look around how it will be.
About now i have ( only video ) 102 min and 461Mb

Also did samples with Bram stoker's Dracula, because the movie has lots of fog scenes, and darkness.

Even on fog, the results were fine, you see some artifacts, but nothing that "hurt the eyes" you know ?

I don't know if i'ts necessary to do some change in FitCD from the script that we use in 352x240 Plus', but, i'm using the same.

Just a thought : If i have a 130-140 even a 150 mins movie, you think that i could raise the CQ and get still better results ?

Well, I'll kepp touch with Braveheart, ok ?

Nice work Kwag and rendalunit

C ya guys Around !

Pacodoni
Reply With Quote
  #20  
09-12-2002, 06:39 PM
kwag kwag is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Puerto Rico, USA
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hi pacodoni,
Let us know your results. I know there are many people right now encoding something with the LBR ( I know I am )

@All,

The main page has been updated, and the PAL template is also posted.
Pal's, try it out

Enjoy,
-kwag
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TMPGEnc: Quality of Template Resolution VS Standard Resolution? afx Video Encoding and Conversion 1 12-29-2003 07:56 PM
Encoding: How to achive good quality with a small file size? Anonymous Video Encoding and Conversion 1 10-25-2003 08:56 AM
Avisynth: Highest quality vs Motion Estimate file size? fabrice Avisynth Scripting 21 08-21-2003 03:13 PM
KVCD compromises - either poor quality or large file size? zorrinn Video Encoding and Conversion 1 08-16-2003 01:21 AM
KVCD: Kvcdx3 file is big - Change quality setting or resolution? dynokeith Video Encoding and Conversion 1 11-24-2002 04:45 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 PM  —  vBulletin Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd