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  #1  
01-04-2005, 10:36 PM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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Mods: Please move this if it should be in another section...

I managed to back up Spiderman 2 onto 2 CDs and it looks great, but that was too easy

Has anyone managed to get it to fit on 1 CD? I tried a few different ways, but my latest attempt has a resolution of 352x480, I used Hybridfupp ("Medium"), and ended up with a CQ of 24.2 using TMPGEnc - YIKES

I think it is the intro to the movie that is killing the CQ - very fast moving and detailed - but integral to the start of the film (IMHO) so I don't want to cut it all out.

So, has anyone managed to get this movie onto a single CD with watchable quality? I'd be very interested to see your script and settings! Or am I just being too unreasonable? (it wouldn't be the first time! )

- Icarus
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  #2  
01-05-2005, 06:08 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
I think it is the intro to the movie that is killing the CQ - very fast moving and detailed - but integral to the start of the film (IMHO) so I don't want to cut it all out.
Hi Icarus .
You're talking about Marvel's into, right?
But I don't think it would be enough for such a low cq figure.
The hardest part of the intro doesn't last more than 20 seconds.
Which version of tmpg are you using?
It wouldn't happen to be 2.59, would it?
And please post your full script.
Cheers
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  #3  
01-05-2005, 08:58 PM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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My script:

Quote:
mpeg2source("D:\My Documents\My Videos\Spiderman2\spidey2.d2v")
Bilinearresize(480,480) #tried also 352,480
converttoyv12()
HybridFuPP(preset = "high") #tried also "med"
TMPGenc Settings:
Quote:
Stream Type: MPEG2
Size: (as above)
AR: 16:9
FR: 23.976 (internal 29.97)
Rate Control: CQ (min=600, max=2300)
VBV: 112
Matrix: KVCD
Max GOP: 24
Is there anything else you need to know?

FYI: When fitting on 2 CDs I don't remember the exact CQ but I believe it was in the upper 70s.
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  #4  
01-06-2005, 03:53 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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- try a lower min bitrate, like 150-300kbps

- lower the VBV buffer to 40

- use a 2-block overscan

- use MPEG-1

Why do you use 16:9 as the aspect ratio? Do a 16:9->4:3 conversion so there will be black borders to keep the aspect ratio correct, CQ value will also rise greatly.

Use the latest TMPGEnc (released a short while ago).
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  #5  
01-06-2005, 04:10 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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With a such min you won't be abble to put anything on a single CD. No need to go further.

Moreover :

1/ you resize without any cropping -> you screw completly the AR !
2/ let HybridFuPP to the the resize by itself. That enhance it's action.

Note : fix your codecs : that is NOT normal to have to doa ConvertoYV12 in a script using MPEG2source ! DVD are YV12.
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  #6  
01-06-2005, 05:07 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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direct resizing from 720width to 480width (in pal and NTSC) is almost ok.
As both will be resized/played back technically by your SAP in an active Window of 53.333µs on your TV using the NTSC or PAL specific MHz rate.

But anyway such 480x480 encodings without any overscan compensation (overlayed or resized) is not the way we do handle our encodings

You can seeit like 2 Tables where the reolutions do just stand in direct resizing relation (ok, minimal errors will be the result anyway).

720*XXX
544*XXX
480*XXX

704*XXX
528*XXX
352*XXX

So I DO NOT understand why for example 528x576 isnt a specs based DVD compatible resolution! *grrrrr

Also 480x576 as mostly used for TV Playback is technically seen NOT logically at least at PAL. They should have set the standard to 464*XXX (464*1.5=696, means almost 702px ITU)

Also a reason why I would never encode in PAL a KVCD at 544*XXX, cause

528 resized by the TV using factor of 1,4586 results in 770px means almost 768px full PAL.
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  #7  
01-06-2005, 05:33 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
direct resizing from 720width to 480width (in pal and NTSC) is almost ok.
You're right : in NTSC, FitCd gives me a 0% error on the A/R
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  #8  
01-06-2005, 06:15 AM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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I don't understand most of the comments.

The Aspect ratio doesn't cause me any problems. I want to keep it at 16:9 so that I can make it anamorphic widescreen, which is also why I want to keep it mpeg-2.

The minimum bitrate of 600 is necesary due to some standalones (Pioneer in particular) not playing properly with higher minimum bitrate.

How should my script look to add a 2 block overcan, and still keep 16:9 aspect ratio?

FYI: I use the exact same script (even at 544x480 for movies up to 95 minutes long). This movie is 122 minutes long but even still I was surprised that the resulting CQ was < 25!
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  #9  
01-06-2005, 06:18 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
I don't understand most of the comments.

The Aspect ratio doesn't cause me any problems. I want to keep it at 16:9 so that I can make it anamorphic widescreen, which is also why I want to keep it mpeg-2.
Which is why you have a extra low CQ.
Quote:
The minimum bitrate of 600 is necesary due to some standalones (Pioneer in particular) not playing properly with higher minimum bitrate.
Use MPEG-1 and mux and burn as SVCD.
Quote:
How should my script look to add a 2 block overcan, and still keep 16:9 aspect ratio?
Use FitCD or MovieStacker.
Quote:
FYI: I use the exact same script (even at 544x480 for movies up to 95 minutes long). This movie is 122 minutes long but even still I was surprised that the resulting CQ was < 25!
If the source is anamorphic (without any black borders) and encoded without going to letterboxed 4:3 and it's 122 minutes long with lots of action, it's no surprise you get a very low CQ value.
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  #10  
01-06-2005, 06:30 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
The Aspect ratio doesn't cause me any problems. I want to keep it at 16:9 so that I can make it anamorphic widescreen, which is also why I want to keep it mpeg-2.
As this is not supported by SVCD, That does not seems to be really a good idea. But perhaps you mean that you switch manually your TV set to anamorphic mode when you play a SVCD ?
(or probably your current standalone reads all VCD or SVCD in anamorphic, as does my Pioneer, even if the disc is 4:3 )

BTW as boulder says : you can't keep the movie without black bars and expect to have it on a single CD. It's impossible ! KVCD allows to put 2 hours of letterboxed movie on a disc. Withotu the bars, you can't put more than 1h20 with a decent quality.

Quote:
The minimum bitrate of 600 is necesary due to some standalones (Pioneer in particular) not playing properly with higher minimum bitrate.
My pioneer accept 64 as min so that is not ALL pioneers. Moreover, do you encode this for yourself or for other peoples ?

Quote:
How should my script look to add a 2 block overcan, and still keep 16:9 aspect ratio?
You should use FitCD.

Quote:
FYI: I use the exact same script (even at 544x480 for movies up to 95 minutes long). This movie is 122 minutes long but even still I was surprised that the resulting CQ was < 25!
122 is 20% more than 95 ! That is not a little.
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  #11  
01-06-2005, 10:23 AM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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ok... I give up I guess it is not possible to do what I want.

However, a few comments:

Quote:
Icarus3000 wrote:
The Aspect ratio doesn't cause me any problems. I want to keep it at 16:9 so that I can make it anamorphic widescreen, which is also why I want to keep it mpeg-2.

As this is not supported by SVCD, That does not seems to be really a good idea. But perhaps you mean that you switch manually your TV set to anamorphic mode when you play a SVCD ?
(or probably your current standalone reads all VCD or SVCD in anamorphic, as does my Pioneer, even if the disc is 4:3 )
This is not the case for me. I have lately been burning all my movies (anything under ~ 100 minutes) as SVCD anamorphic and it works great! My Pioneer automatically adds the letterboxing so I can view properly on my old 4:3 TV, and automatically shows up as widescreen at my rich brother in law's house with the nice 50" widescreen TV Also, the player plays 4:3 DVDs and (K)(S)VCDs fine too!

I am just encoding for myself, but want my results to be as compatible as possible because who knows what player I will have in the future.

Has anyone out there ACTUALLY tried to make this film fit on one CD? I understand the theory behind your suggestions, but want to know if anyone has done this in practice (this exact movie). MPEG-1 4:3 letterbox, overscan, etc... I really suspect this movie will be harder than you think!

I have to say that I have been encoding many movies in the way I tried to do this one, and they have all been turning out great (under 100 minutes). I would have probably even been happy with a CQ of 50 on this one.

- Icarus
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  #12  
01-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
I am just encoding for myself, but want my results to be as compatible as possible because who knows what player I will have in the future.
SPA having bitrate problem are what... 10%, may be less... ? So that is not really a problem. And you should buy a SPA only after having tested a disc on it, not the opposite (buy then test)

Quote:
Has anyone out there ACTUALLY tried to make this film fit on one CD? I understand the theory behind your suggestions, but want to know if anyone has done this in practice (this exact movie). MPEG-1 4:3 letterbox, overscan, etc... I really suspect this movie will be harder than you think!
No, it is not, really. I did it. Even if I never watched this crap (I'm talking about the movie). I just cut the endings credits and probably used a resolution about 480*576 (do not remember).

Quote:
I have to say that I have been encoding many movies in the way I tried to do this one, and they have all been turning out great (under 100 minutes).
I fear that what you call "great" I call this crap. A decent result with a 100 minutes in fullscreen (that is what is done when you do not do letterbox, did you know that ?) it's very rare.

Quote:
I would have probably even been happy with a CQ of 50 on this one.
Happy about what ? Something that can't be watched without crying ? 80
(i'm talking about the CQ50 here, not the movie )
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  #13  
01-06-2005, 10:41 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
I am just encoding for myself, but want my results to be as compatible as possible because who knows what player I will have in the future.
Now read Phil's answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
As this is not supported by SVCD, That does not seems to be really a good idea.
If you want standard compliant streams, don't do 16:9 SVCDs
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  #14  
01-06-2005, 11:38 AM
Icarus3000 Icarus3000 is offline
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Quote:
If you want standard compliant streams, don't do 16:9 SVCDs
Oh? I was under the impression that SVCD DID support anamorphic 16:9 - why else is there a 16:9 flag for SVCD?

Phil: You sound more like someone on another forum when they are asked about the quality of KVCD! I guarantee you you would not call the quality of the encodes I have done with this method "crap" if you saw them with your own eyes - I always use CQ>60, usually >65. I admit CQ 50 wouldn't look so "great".

I used to do mpeg-1 4:3 letterbox, but was very disappointed when playing back on some player/ widescreen TV combinations that I know ended up with black bars not only on top and bottom, but on left and right too! That is why I started doing all my widescreen movies in 16:9 mpeg-2 format.

Adding overscan blocks is something that I neglected to do though, and I will dust off my copy of FitCD to remind myself how to do that.
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  #15  
01-06-2005, 12:02 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
but on left and right too!
Then there has been something wrong with your script, too much overscan. Nothing to do with 4:3 conversion.
Quote:
I was under the impression that SVCD DID support anamorphic 16:9 - why else is there a 16:9 flag for SVCD?
I stand corrected on this one, just checked at Jukka Aho's site. SVCD supports anamorphic encodes, it's just that many players don't understand the 16:9 flag and you'll have to set the widescreen mode manually.
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  #16  
01-06-2005, 12:05 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus3000
Oh? I was under the impression that SVCD DID support anamorphic 16:9 - why else is there a 16:9 flag for SVCD?
There isn't. MPEG2 has, but it is not used by SVCD. (AFAIK)

Quote:
Phil: You sound more like someone on another forum when they are asked about the quality of KVCD! I guarantee you you would not call the quality of the encodes I have done with this method "crap" if you saw them with your own eyes
Having not skilled eyes does not turn something bad in something good. No ?
Nevertheless, I did not say "your KVCD are craps" but something more like "I fear that what you call "great" I call this crap". That suggested that all is subjective.

Quote:
- I always use CQ>60, usually >65.
I'm quite surprised you manage to have this in fullscreen with no overscan. Except if you use a godamn script that probably won't please my eyes (too soft I guess).

Quote:
I admit CQ 50 wouldn't look so "great".
So we agree that bad IS bad

Quote:
I used to do mpeg-1 4:3 letterbox, but was very disappointed when playing back on some player/ widescreen TV combinations that I know ended up with black bars not only on top and bottom, but on left and right too!
This is because you do not use the TV correctly : you have to use a zoom mode to read correctly a 4:3 source on a widescreen TV. If the zoom was not selected automatically on these typical TV, then you would have use the remote and force the zoom. That can happens, but has nothing to do with the fact the disc was MPEG1.

Quote:
That is why I started doing all my widescreen movies in 16:9 mpeg-2 format.
And you will be very disapointed to see that screen will be stretched on a lot a SPA because they do not read them in anaporphic. Then you will take the remote and force the anamorphic mode on the TV to restore the correct mode. That does not change anything about having them in MPEG1 and 4:3. Except that the quality of MPEG1 4:3 will be a lot greater (with any eyes) than the same encoded in MPEG2 anamorphic.

Quote:
Adding overscan blocks is something that I neglected to do though, and I will dust off my copy of FitCD to remind myself how to do that.
It will add a little more CQ but not that more.
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  #17  
01-12-2005, 11:12 AM
Koekies Koekies is offline
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I ripped my spiderman dvd the wide screen edition and calcumatic said I could use a 721 avg bitrate. That should give okay quality just use it in cqmatic and predict the cq
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  #18  
01-12-2005, 11:22 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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The bitrate never gives any clue about CQ.

Yesterday I did 2 KVCD : one with 1330 and the other with 920.
Cq for first one was 70, CQ for second was... 79 !
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  #19  
01-12-2005, 11:24 AM
Koekies Koekies is offline
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ow :P never noticed that :P But thanks for the info
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