Quantcast Bitrates: Procalc ASPA Lite, Available Space Proportional Allocator - Page 4 - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #61  
09-15-2005, 06:57 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Automatic calculating in Excel doesn't work because the samples aren't exactly 1%, 3% etc.
Hum... length in minute of the sample, the fps and the filesize, that's all what Excell needs. Having the length is as easy as opening the encoded movie in a media player
Still it's easier to open the sample in BV or MSA and enter the value in the spreadsheet
Quote:
If you have time :

script1 :
total length : 40'59" (73704 frames)
sample length : 1'14" (2219 frames)
fps : 29.97

sample filesize : 54.145 MB

script2 :
total length : 81'59" (147408 frames)
sample length : 2'27" (4424 frames)
fps : 29.97

sample filesize : 111.776 MB
(with a peak up to 31450 in HC )

For audio bitrate I used 384 in my test with ASPA.
I hope I got it right, avg bitrate 4421kbps for the first one, 4592kbps for the second one. Correlates nicely with the complexities in samples.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/sainki/excel.jpg
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  #62  
09-15-2005, 07:08 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Still it's easier to open the sample in BV or MSA and enter the value in the spreadsheet
Yeah, once you dled, installed (and paid for ?) these tools

Quote:
I hope I got it right, avg bitrate 4421kbps for the first one, 4592kbps for the second one. Correlates nicely with the complexities in samples.
And that is also close to the ASPA results in "complexity" mode.

I really think that "full" mode is a bad thing (no offence Luis).
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  #63  
09-15-2005, 07:13 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Still it's easier to open the sample in BV or MSA and enter the value in the spreadsheet
Yeah, once you dled, installed (and paid for ?) these tools
That's just one time Both can be used free of charge, MSA just shows a bouncing logo on the video but that doesn't matter as you just need the figure.
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  #64  
09-15-2005, 07:59 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Check the HC.log after you encode the clip.
It will tell you the encoded average bitrate.
Isn't that what you're looking for?
Cheers
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  #65  
09-15-2005, 08:01 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
Check the HC.log after you encode the clip.
It will tell you the encoded average bitrate.
Isn't that what you're looking for?
Cheers
That's one option, of course Funny it didn't come to my mind even if I played with HC's CQ mode some days ago.
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  #66  
09-15-2005, 08:05 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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You see, that's what I've been using since I started using your spreadsheet .
I love to see you both working on this multi-movie proportional OPV with HC .
Keep it going and I'll try to stay close if I manage to get some time.
Cheers
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  #67  
09-15-2005, 08:08 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
Check the HC.log after you encode the clip.
I don't have any log file. I guess HC does not do it if not requested.
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  #68  
09-15-2005, 08:21 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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@Phil
The original HCEnc zipfile distributed by Hank with his ftpd, already comes with a file named Template_HC.ini inside.
Change that filename to HC.ini and edit it.
You will see that it have the settings for a logfile.
Edit the path and the name for the logfile.
Open it after you encode search in the end of the logfile and you'll find the figure for the avg bitrate.
BTW, if you keep encoding with that HC.ini, you will see that every encode will be added to that file!
So beware because the file can have the logs for zillions of test encodes .
Cheers
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  #69  
09-15-2005, 12:37 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Phil,

could you test my spreadsheet with your samples? Encode a 3% sample of each episode with SelectRangeEvery(500,15) and fill in the values. Number of frames means the total number of frames in the clip. You need to fill in that, the avg bitrate of the sample and the audio bitrate.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/sainki/kbps_eng_multi.xls

(Of course, you can test your theory as well )
Also do compare spreadsheet and ProCalc Lite as it should obtain (and do obtain indeed, almost same results, difference only related with floating point values)
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  #70  
09-15-2005, 12:43 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabrice
Hi,

First of all, I know what is drag&drop, and a windows interface ! :P

The problem is that I can't add more than one file to procalc: it always sustitute the only file I have in the list...

And one small bug: if you change a path (hc path for example), i don't take effect until you restart procalc.

Thanks,
Fabrice
You should have all your avs files in one folder and drag and drop all at same time. This is the program way.
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  #71  
09-15-2005, 12:53 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
Yep, now I see what you mean .
Could you check Boulder's spreadsheet too?
That's what I've been using and it hasn't failed me once.
Just so that we can compare both methods.
That is, if you have time and a bit of patience .
Cheers
It is not a fail. It is the behaviour of ProCalc Lite and Boulder's spreasheet also. You don't think in that before, so you didn't see it. I "yes" saw it, but I didn't know enough about it, I could not realize what was the thing that don't worked well (in my mind I mean), so I implemented time and complexity mode, as a ensurance.
My thought was, if we use complexity mode only, the bitrate differences will asign more space to the stream that need it, related, not only with complexity but with movielength also. But I still can't round it completely in my mind.
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  #72  
09-15-2005, 12:59 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
If CQ_maxbitrate is the mode that is being used, it's a bug.
I never dig into HC and I use the ini modifued by luis :
Code:
*cq            1.5
 *cq_maxbitrate 7.6
I guess the cq_maxbitrate mode is used ?

Beside this, does "SelectRangeEvery(500,15)" select exactly a 3% sample length for a NTSC 29.97 source ? or is it only for PAL source ?
cq_maxbitrate will give you a stream without spikes. If there is any while encoding, it will cut it to avoid uncompliant DVD results.
The samples are encoded in CQ mode (not cq_maxbitrate), as if I want a complexity analisis, I can't to cut those spikes because the sample wouldnt be representative.

So ProCalc Lite manage HC to encode samples in CQ mode (not cq_maxbitrate).
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  #73  
09-15-2005, 01:04 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
So if you would encode the same movie clip in regular CQ and with CQ_maxbitrate, both should end up with the same avg bitrate.
And that doesn't happen because CQ_max does not use the spare bits where there is no need for more bitrate.
Exactly, and that's why CQ_maxbitrate should be used when encoding the samples as well. In fact, the settings should be as close as possible to the actual encoding.
I didn't interprete that in this way, but if all you are sure I will change CQ for CQ_maxbitrate mode.
But I think that a stream in CQ will have more size that one in CQ_maxbitrate, with same source, despite the avgbitrate be the same.
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  #74  
09-15-2005, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
I use Bitrate Viewer or MPEG Stream Analyzer to get the avg bitrate. The method doesn't matter as long as you use the same way for all files that end up on the same DVD. Automatic calculating in Excel doesn't work because the samples aren't exactly 1%, 3% etc.
You don't need the avg bitrate. It is enough with final size as it is an avg bitrate function.
But maybe this is why ProCalc Lite gives you different values (a programtion error) as I used final sample size as value for the calculation.
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  #75  
09-15-2005, 01:16 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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In my opinion, the complexity should be measured with the final settings in mind. That is, the same matrix, same bitrate boundaries, GOPs etc. That way you can ensure that there'll be a fair result for all clips involved. As Phil's sample showed, there can be huge spikes which can then cause a serious bias towards the clip regarding bitrate. In the final encode, you always have to clamp to the max bitrate anyway
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  #76  
09-15-2005, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Still it's easier to open the sample in BV or MSA and enter the value in the spreadsheet
Yeah, once you dled, installed (and paid for ?) these tools

Quote:
I hope I got it right, avg bitrate 4421kbps for the first one, 4592kbps for the second one. Correlates nicely with the complexities in samples.
And that is also close to the ASPA results in "complexity" mode.

I really think that "full" mode is a bad thing (no offence Luis).
If you have the framecount and length of your sample, you can obtain avg bitrate with a simple calculation in excell.

Don't worry Phil. In a previous post you can read that could be a programmation error.
What is for you the better way then, complexity mode maybe?
I think fixing full mode it would be still the better way.
I noted (now I explain myself why) that was better to put similar time movies.
Also it is not convenient to put fullscreen together with widescreen, as fullscreen movies eats excesive bitrate.
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  #77  
09-15-2005, 02:57 PM
fabrice fabrice is offline
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Hi,

That's true that I didn't try to d&d various selected file... (And I just see that you put AVSs ... )

I think the problem with the full mode is that you are already using a sample, which have a length proportional to total frame number (5%)
So you encode 2 movies, one 2 time longer than the other, your encoded samples will already consider 2 times more frames, and so, with igual complexity, will have a sample 2 times bigger...

So I think that the complexity mode, which use the sample size, should already take into account the length of the movie and the "complexity", and should be enougth.

Salu2
Fabrice
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  #78  
09-15-2005, 03:52 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
What is for you the better way then, complexity mode maybe?
yes it is.

Quote:
I think fixing full mode it would be still the better way.
I noted (now I explain myself why) that was better to put similar time movies.
But Luis there is still NO reason to allocate bitrate according to the length !
Do you have in mind that for the same bitrate, the longer movie will already take more space than the other ? So if you also give to it more bitrate, it's completly amazing.
Return back to my two movies that have the same complexity : with the same bitrate, the 2hours long will take 66% of the DVD and the shorter will have 33% (2/3 - 1/3)
With aspa that gives the double bitrate to the two hours, this one will take 80% of the place (4/5 - 1/5).
Can you tell me what in your mind justify this for two movies with the same complexity ? I want to understand.

Taking two movies that are close in time just reduce this effect but do not justify it.

Quote:
Also it is not convenient to put fullscreen together with widescreen, as fullscreen movies eats excesive bitrate.
I think this is included in the notion of complexity but I'm not 100% sure.
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  #79  
09-15-2005, 03:57 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Also it is not convenient to put fullscreen together with widescreen, as fullscreen movies eats excesive bitrate.
I think this is included in the notion of complexity but I'm not 100% sure.
That's correct. My determination of complexity doesn't care about aspect ratio, resolution etc. It only cares about how many bits are needed to maintain a similar visual quality level between videos that are to be put on the same disc. A movie with 1.33:1 aspect ratio is actually the same as a movie with 1.78:1 if you keep it anamorphic: both fill the whole 720x576(480) frame. And that's the whole idea why I created the notorious spreadsheet
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  #80  
09-15-2005, 04:26 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
But Luis there is still NO reason to allocate bitrate according to the length !
Do you have in mind that for the same bitrate, the longer movie will already take more space than the other ? So if you also give to it more bitrate, it's completly amazing.
Return back to my two movies that have the same complexity : with the same bitrate, the 2hours long will take 66% of the DVD and the shorter will have 33% (2/3 - 1/3)
With aspa that gives the double bitrate to the two hours, this one will take 80% of the place (4/5 - 1/5).
Can you tell me what in your mind justify this for two movies with the same complexity ? I want to understand.

Taking two movies that are close in time just reduce this effect but do not justify it.
I can see the point now. If all here do agree, specially Boulder, I can fix ProCalc Lite in a easy way, just withdrawing ASPA full mode.
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