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  #1  
08-18-2005, 10:44 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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ProCalc ASPA Lite

Updated NOV/27/2005:
- ProCalc ASPA 1.6.0.0b
- Added preview of avs script.
- Added edition and see changes in preview window.
- Added comparation routine (thanks to Diahot) in preview window.
- Help file updated, including how to use these functions. Press F1 to obtain help.

Updated: OCT/15/2005
- ProCalc Lite 1.3.0.2b
- You can call now PARanoia from within ProCalc Lite.

Updated: SET/18/2005
ProCalc Lite 1.3.0.1b
- You can keep HC Encoder sample log checking a checkbox.

Updated: SET/18/2005
- Info panel shows all movies at a time without scroll bars.
- fixed bug: HC Encoder and another auxiliary softwares paths are updated inmediately
- fixed bug: When you change audio properties, it is showed inmediately in info panel.
- ASPA full mode withdrawed as discussions about it showed a bad implementation. (thanks Dialhot).

ProCalc ASPA Lite 1.6.0.0b

ProCalc Lite ASPA (Available Space Proportional Allocator) is a tool that permits you to calculate the space required for your movies backups.
It can load until 10 avs scripts, then executes ASPA routines and give you the data required. It is to say, total calculated target size, video calculated final size, audio calculated final size, avgbtr to obtain such final video size, movie time in minutes and seconds and total frames of each movie.
You can preview your avs script. You will preview the sample highlighting any avs in the left panel or the whole stream highlighting any avs in the down panel.
When you peview a whole stream you can also do a side by side comparation of "not filtered" and "filtered " streams.

WARNING: This program will work with avs scripts with only one video source line. You can't and must not have more that one line mpeg2source, avisource, directshowsource, etc., not even commented. If you have more that one video source line, the program can fail completely.


You can do calculations in 2 ways:
1 - ASPA complexity mode: Just opposite to time mode, it analizy complexity, but regardless movie length.
2 - ASPA time mode: ProCalc do calculations taking in account movie time (or length), but not complexity. No sample will be encode.

The recommended one is ASPA complexity mode.

The calculation engine will encode with HC Encoder in CQ mode, slicer samples (THX Incredible) with the "One Pass Ping Pong Prediction" (OPPPP) routine designed by me (a 2% OPPPP routine is the same than Incredible 2% ping routine performed in different way, as discussed in KVCD.net).
Once it runs, calculations are performed and results will be showed in a listbox.
With this you can do several tasks regarding your preferences, for example:
1 - Load CQMatic with avg bitrate obtained (calculated to fill a proportional space related with movietime and motion).* Other settings as usual. Run a full encode with CQMatic for each project file.
2 - Load any X Pass VBR encoder with avg bitrate (calculated to fill a proportional space related with movietime and motion), max bitrate, passes, video size (proportional result related with movietime and motion) and all switches that you need. Run a full encode for each project file.
3 - Load any OPV manager (AutoQ2 for CCE, BDCQ Calc, etc.) with calculated final size. Those programs will do prediction and later will encode with CCE 2.7x, CCE 2.6x, FreeEnc, AQE, NuEnc, etc.
Before doing any calculation, you must to check your avs scripts. You can do it from within ProCalc.
Before doing any calculation you must to edit HC Encoder HC.ini general template. Then it will be used to create each individual movie.ini file. You can edit also those individual files of each loaded avs script from within ProCalc.


When task ended, you can view the html log pressing a button.

There are another tools that can be called from ProCalc Lite:
*********1 - Your DVD Decrypter.
*********2 - DVD2AVI or DGIndex.
*********3 - PARanoia.
*********4 - AC3 Delay Corrector..
*********5 - You can do massive AC3 Delay Correction.
*********6 - Special audio conversion (test yourself)
*********7 - BeSweet.
*********8 - SubRip.
*********9 - DGPulldown.

You need to set the paths to these programs pressing paths button.

Some tips:
1 - Before load any avs script, edit HC.ini template file. BE SURE THAT " *cq 1.5 " BE ENABLED withdrawing space betwen the margin and * (Refer to HC doc).
2 - Default values are for DVD settings. Target size is a safe size, you can play with it doing encodings. Take in account that you don't need to calculate overhead as it is did already.
3 - GOP size must to be same as your final encoding. 12 as a general best value, 15 for PAL and 18 for NTSC systems.
4 - You can copy any of the values just highlighting an avs script name in AVS listbox and left double clicking it. A popup menu will be shown. Select the option, go to your encoding application and paste info in the correct box.
5 - All help about program is given by the tooltips and the help file (F1 key).

Download it:

ProCalc ASPA Lite





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  #2  
08-18-2005, 11:02 PM
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Looking good Luis

-kwag
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  #3  
08-19-2005, 12:00 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Looking good Luis

-kwag
Thanks.
Im happy, it gives me almost same values than Calcumatic, when comparing results and setting calcumatic with individual files results.
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  #4  
08-19-2005, 04:00 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Luis,

I really don't understand the interrest of that tool.
Why do you compute the complexity ? Is it for instance too allow the first movie to use more space if it is very complex when movie 2 and 3 are not ?
Because on your snapshots, all movies have the exact same bitrate (probably because you selected 'time mode') so I really don't understand the goal behind this complexity.

I think you should illustrate your tool with a snapshot taken in "full mode" to better represent what it does.
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  #5  
08-19-2005, 05:26 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Luis,

I really don't understand the interrest of that tool.
Why do you compute the complexity ? Is it for instance too allow the first movie to use more space if it is very complex when movie 2 and 3 are not ?
Because on your snapshots, all movies have the exact same bitrate (probably because you selected 'time mode') so I really don't understand the goal behind this complexity.

I think you should illustrate your tool with a snapshot taken in "full mode" to better represent what it does.
Added pics.

How do you usually assign media space to yor 2:1 backups?

There are 4 ways.
1- Same space for each movie.
2- Related to movie time, single 3 rule (I don't know if it called so in english).
3 - Related to complexity, where you need to analize samples of each movie encoded in CQ mode and single 3 rule apply to filesize (as it represent kbps needed).
4 - Related to both, time and complexity.

What is the interrest of that tool?
Take ASPA full values for each movie and give it to a prediction tool, as CQmatic, HC-Qmatic, Nu-Qmatic or any prediction method as ping-pong, OPPPP, etc. All your project movies will have same relative quality.
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  #6  
08-19-2005, 05:42 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Added pics.
Thanks; it's a lot better to understand that your tool is not just a bitrate calc
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  #7  
08-19-2005, 07:04 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Added pics.
Thanks; it's a lot better to understand that your tool is not just a bitrate calc
Your welcome.
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  #8  
08-19-2005, 11:20 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
For instance, why don't you change your ASPA to be used with more than 3 files ? I'm currently doing DVD with 8 TV show ep on a disc, can you please modify your app ?
He can easely do it:

One "audiosources" button is needed no more, each time you add an audio, an internal filesize parser will calculate the sum of all used audios. As audio in this case is a simple amount of space for his internal ASAP calculations. Also he can generate in the same logic a Button "Extras", there the Menues and subs, PC ROM data etc. in its sum of size will be added in its kb calculation.
I could do that, but not so easely. Please, remember I only have beginner skills.
Anyway I think it is not the way. If you sum all audios and sustract it for whole media size, movies that you want with 2.0 audio will suffer of "stolen space" by movies with 5.1 audio. Same if you want a movie with more that one audio track. So, audio kbps and track number is a necesary info for each input file. Also you should know what audio match with what video, to obtain a final media size if you want to load this in, for example, Calcumatic, as you cant select 0 audio tracks in it.
The way ProCalc Lite does its works is doing audio size calculation and not taking the values from mp2 files. Doing this also force you to select one audio for one video and no more, talking about the way you said.
A lot of core code change would be necesary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Finally the more Appl.Window space which results by choosing the way above can be used for more avs inputs.
And even here he easely could reduce that as there will be only ONE avs inport button incl. a List-Box Gadget where all imported avs's will be listet (like the Batch Window in Packshot). If you want to delete one imported avs, simply go into that list box and delete the Name/Entry.



(nope I didnt build all Buttons from scratch, the lower part is a screen copy. *lol)

Shure the "Process" Button is needed on the side below

Wink
I like the aspect of your pic. Maybe I could work in a second form for those cases with more than 3 avs inputs.
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  #9  
08-19-2005, 11:59 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
I like the aspect of your pic. Maybe I could work in a second form for those cases with more than 3 avs inputs.
Inc idea is interresting. I only wonder about the fact that generally I encode the audio in the very last step and not before the video. This way, if the video is a little bigger or smaller than expected, I just have to compile audio at a different bitrate that the one I planed to use.

But anyway, you can't have everything...
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  #10  
08-19-2005, 12:15 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
I like the aspect of your pic. Maybe I could work in a second form for those cases with more than 3 avs inputs.
Inc idea is interresting. I only wonder about the fact that generally I encode the audio in the very last step and not before the video. This way, if the video is a little bigger or smaller than expected, I just have to compile audio at a different bitrate that the one I planed to use.

But anyway, you can't have everything...
If I work on it, I will do in in the way you say. Audio length will be calculated and no parse from a file. (I explained it in previous post, maybe you don't understood it).
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  #11  
08-19-2005, 12:16 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
I could do that, but not so easely. Please, remember I only have beginner skills.
Me too thats why I try to put myself in your situation
Quote:
If you sum all audios and sustract it for whole media size, movies that you want with 2.0 audio will suffer of "stolen space" by movies with 5.1 audio. Same if you want a movie with more that one audio track. So, audio kbps and track number is a necesary info for each input file. Also you should know what audio match with what video, to obtain a final media size if you want to load this in, for example, Calcumatic, as you cant select 0 audio tracks in it.
uogh! Then Im total out of subject as I thought the GAIN of this peace of sofware is to allocade bits to a TOTAL available space for video where the resulted test sample encoding KBs out of a fix Q value used on all samples will give you the proportion

As Audio is CBR you can simply sum it, the resulted available space is the area you can count with in case of vbr encodings.

Quote:
The way ProCalc Lite does its works is doing audio size calculation and not taking the values from mp2 files. Doing this also force you to select one audio for one video and no more, talking about the way you said.
Yep I see Im (was) totally out of subject

My understanding was :

Take the space needed for other things than video (like for shure Audio, subs, menues, muxing/building overhead) and subtract THAT space from the target Mediasize. That resulted available space is the one for Videobits.

Encode ALL AVS's in a sliced() way using A FIX Q. Parse out the Kb result of each and there you find the complexitivity(needed Bits) proportion. Do take into account THAT Proportion to your avg Bitrate allocation on all Videotracks - finally do your 2pass encodes on the Streams.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
I only wonder about the fact that generally I encode the audio in the very last step and not before the video. This way, if the video is a little bigger or smaller than expected, I just have to compile audio at a different bitrate that the one I planed to use.
Yupp! Thats right as we can feel better if all space is useful used
Even if we cant hear a diff. between 160kbit and 192kbit, but the "filling up" of resulted space using audio extra bits doesnt hurt
But to be exact youre right IF you do calculate 192kbits and finally the whole project only fits on the Media IF you finally encode the audio at 160, means Audiobitrate as a SAFE factor, right ... and thats the purpose I do assume.
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08-19-2005, 12:36 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
My understanding was :

Take the space needed for other things than video (like for shure Audio, subs, menues, muxing/building overhead) and subtract THAT space from the target Mediasize. That resulted available space is the one for Videobits.
It is so.
Audio is calculated not parsed.
Other stuff, substract it manulally from media size. Don't take in account overhead.
Total Media Size = 4320 MB (safe value) if you set it to 4300 + 182 overhead = 4482. Surey you know this value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
(1) Encode ALL AVS's in a sliced() way using A FIX Q. Parse out the Kb result of each and there you find the complexitivity(needed Bits) proportion. Do take into account THAT Proportion to your avg Bitrate allocation on all Videotracks - (2) finally do your 2pass encodes on the Streams.
1 - It is so.
2 - Partially ok. You can do your 2pass encodes with the calculated bitrate or you can do prediction with obtained values and encode in CQ mode, for instance load CQmatic with movie time and avgbtr (straight related with final size). Do it with all movies and finally you will have 3 encoded streams, with CQ mode, all with same relative quality agree with their complexity. Or do ping-pong prediction targeting media size that ProCalc gives you, and you will obtain same results encoding in CQ mode, it is to say, streams with similar relative quality, that we disscused a time ago in Calcumatic thread.
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  #13  
08-19-2005, 01:25 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Complexity mode has a bug.
I will fix it soon.
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  #14  
08-19-2005, 06:29 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Bug fixed.
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08-20-2005, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Inc idea is interresting. I only wonder about the fact that generally I encode the audio in the very last step and not before the video. This way, if the video is a little bigger or smaller than expected, I just have to compile audio at a different bitrate that the one I planed to use.
But do you re-encode even when you do a DVD->DVD backup?

As Luis said, the idea is to get (almost) equal quality for each video file on the disc, and that's why I created the spreadsheet which calculated the necessary values for me. I said almost equal because a sample is never 100% accurate, but from what I've seen, it's quite close with 3-5% sample clips.
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  #16  
08-20-2005, 05:38 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
But do you re-encode even when you do a DVD->DVD backup?
If your question is "don't you keep the original ac3 audio ?", then yes generally I do. But I also do a lot of DVD with several TV show ep, and in this case I generally use (reencoded) mp2 audio.
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08-20-2005, 05:47 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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That explains it, thanks.

I've ended up doing a 2-pass encode with CCE since I got frustrated with CCEFront's erratic behaviour. Until Tylo fixes it, I must stick to a regular VBR encode. In that case, you can use a fixed audio bitrate as the encoder hits the target every time.
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08-20-2005, 07:08 AM
Zyphon Zyphon is offline
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@Prodater64

Thanks Luis for making a VB6 version of your tool, hopefully this one should work fine on my system. I can't wait to do some tests.
__________________
Regards.

Michael.
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  #19  
08-20-2005, 03:28 PM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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@Boulder:
I like to see you again. I didn't read any post from you from a time ago.
I hope you like this tool. It is your spreadsheet, programmed. BTW I apologize you as I forget to include you in the credits. It will be fixed in next version.

@Zyphon: Your welcome.
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08-21-2005, 04:01 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
@Boulder:
I like to see you again. I didn't read any post from you from a time ago.
I hope you like this tool. It is your spreadsheet, programmed. BTW I apologize you as I forget to include you in the credits. It will be fixed in next version.
No problem, after all it's just maths, nothing more. I only wish I had thought of the whole thing much earlier, it would have made my early DVD encodes much better looking

I was without broadband connection for the whole summer so I didn't visit any forums much, I usually just checked if any new filters were around.
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