Codecs: MP4 Format and Saps - Page 5

Dialhot · #81 01-09-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds_correia

Duh, can you elaborate on that Phil?

Yes. I'm pissed of discussions about quality of encoder based on metrics and I will remove all messages that has this as toppic. If there is a problem with that, just tell me and I quit all my moderator activities.

No problem with discussions based on samples visually compared like just above concerning therora/x264.

Prodater64 · #82 01-09-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dialhot

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds_correia

Duh, can you elaborate on that Phil?

Yes. I'm pissed of discussions about quality of encoder based on metrics and I will remove all messages that has this as toppic. If there is a problem with that, just tell me and I quit all my moderator activities.

No problem with discussions based on samples visually compared like just above concerning therora/x264.

Well, yes i have a problem with all those arbitrary and despotic actions.
All people has right to give its opinion, while that doesn't be an ofense.
If you don't want such discussions, simply, don't answer (neither read) those topics.

kwag · #83 01-09-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

Well ... now I will try to convince you that Libavcodec is best MPEG2 encoder for low bitrate and by very far ...

Nope. I think we've experimented in this forum with avcodec far more than you ever will

And we already have concrete conclussion, that avcodec is a piece of trash, as far as compliancy.
I may very well be the best encoder, as far as "quality" produced on low bitrates compared to other commercial MPEG-1/2 encoders, but it's useless for SAP and other applications because compliancy issues.

-kwag

Dialhot · #84 01-09-2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodater64

All people has right to give its opinion, while that doesn't be an ofense.
If you don't want such discussions, simply, don't answer (neither read) those topics.

Of course Pro. And all people that doen't want to be moderator on a board that lets stupidy be wrotten can quit. Isn't it ?

I already told that not reading something is not like not having them be written. I won't associate my "image" to such ********* that's all. Everything has been said about stupidity of metrics, and no word needs to be added.
Metrics can be easily fooled (for instance, all TV broadcasters will tell you the volume of adds is not louder than the remainder of the programms - and the metrics show they are right -, but everyone jumps on his remote to lower the volume as soon as advertising start).

If people want to be stupid, they can be such elsewhere (doom9 for instance). There I won't read them or if I do, I won't be upsetted if they write something I don't want to be associated with.

Sagittaire · #85 01-09-2006, 09:18 AM

1) Speak about metric with video codec dev and not with me. They can speak about capacity and limit of metric very better than me (or you). For example Metric can detect easyest that H264 will be visually very better than Ogg Theora in previous post (useless for me to see the encoding ... I see difference for OPSNR ... but it's certainely only a coincidence ... lol). But it's not the subject here : quality can be for me pure subjective visual quality too ...

2) MPEG2 challenge could be:
- Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
- Target bitrate for encoder
- DVD Compliance Verification

Quote:

Nope. I think we've experimented in this forum with avcodec far more than you ever will

hmmm ... perhaps not .... personnaly I used libavcodec to make MPEG4 before MPEG2 implementation. I use actually Libavcodec for HD encoding (low anchor for HD video codec comparison). But I encode not often in MPEG2 and I can still be convinced ...

Dialhot · #86 01-09-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

quality can be for me pure subjective visual quality too ...

I'm sure it can. I do not tell you to not enter into any quality related toppics, but not if this is to speak about metrics again.

Sagittaire · #87 01-09-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

If people want to be stupid, they can be such elsewhere (doom9 for instance). There I won't read them or if I do, I won't be upsetted if they write something I don't want to be associated with.

Ateme dev like Bobololo, Babayaga or Manao (best video codec in the world for metric and for eyes too) are certainely not stupid people ... and they use metric to compare codec quality ... ???

I think that Zhou Wang, Ligang Lu and Alan C. Bovik are not stupid people too
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~zwang/files/papers/vssim.pdf

Syskin, Skal (XviD Dev), Bobololo, Babayaga, Manao (Nero dev), pengvado (x264 dev), karl_lillevold (RV10 dev), One2Tech (VPX dev), sh0dan (AviSynth Developer), hank315 (HC encoder) ... and more and more ... are stupid people ... ???

Dialhot · #88 01-09-2006, 11:53 AM

Excuse me you are right. They are not stupids. Go continue read them. Elsewhere. Far. Thanks.

incredible · #89 01-09-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Syskin, Skal (XviD Dev), Bobololo, Babayaga, Manao (Nero dev), pengvado (x264 dev), karl_lillevold (RV10 dev), One2Tech (VPX dev), sh0dan (AviSynth Developer), hank315 (HC encoder) ... and more and more ... are stupid people ... ???

You like to mix up things right?
Noone said that!

Its clear that H264 based ones at the moment are the hottest codecs around, no doubt at all. And you showed some people in here the "visual" quality via samples where those people had'nt make their experiences on THAT codec till now as they made their encodings using mpeg2 for DVD SAP purposes.

Now again you took your 1928374746th attempt to say that Mencoder or libavcodec in general for mpeg2 is the "best" (a word you like in general) which resulted in a 193736347th "Please not again" from here. That sadly forced you to mix up the subject by saying that we could take great developers for fools (see your quote above). THAT "statement" where you do count names had no! relation to the words being said in here about the mpeg2 compilancy-capabilities in total of libavodec!

BTW: At any serious board I know, the words "whats the best" and also "being the best" are not accepted at all.

Sagittaire · #90 01-09-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by incredible

Now again you took your 1928374746th attempt to say that Mencoder or libavcodec in general for mpeg2 is the "best" (a word you like in general) which resulted in a 193736347th "Please not again" from here. That sadly forced you to mix up the subject by saying that we could take great developers for fools (see your quote above). THAT "statement" where you do count names had no! relation to the words being said in here about the mpeg2 compilancy-capabilities in total of libavodec!

Then why not little challenge ... ???

1) Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
2) Target bitrate for encoder
3) DVD Compliance Verification

I have a very good source for test that (extra high quality source, extra low compressibility, extra high difficulty for RC, extra high difficulty for VBV ... etc etc etc)

gamma · #91 01-09-2006, 03:46 PM

Ok, ok. Here, read this:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16078

There.

Next topic.

Sagittaire · #92 01-09-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamma

Ok, ok. Here, read this:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16078

There.

Next topic.

and ... ???

I not speak about metric for next challenge:

1) Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
2) Target bitrate for encoder
3) DVD Compliance Verification

kwag · #93 01-09-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

3) DVD Compliance Verification

What part of "AVCODEC IS NOT TRULY DVD COMPLIANT" don't you understand

-kwag

Sagittaire · #94 01-09-2006, 05:07 PM

Well I don't speak about only Libavcodec : if LAVC MPEG2 don't produce compliant stream ... we not include LAVC stream in Challenge. There are other MPEG2 encoder like CCE, ProCoder, Mainconcept, HCEnc ... etc etc etc

Challenge will be open only for MPEG2 encoder with certified compliant stream.

But little question : how do you check MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ... ???

digitall.doc · #95 01-09-2006, 05:11 PM

I remember I did intensive testing with mencoder a year and a half ago. I had problems with bitrate spikes when encoding for KDVD (with maxbitrate 5000 I got spikes around 11000, that my SAP didn't play).
I tried every moded version I came across, but still the same.
Even those streams that didn't show spikes, also didn't play well.
I kept testing it even after mencoder forum went on hold.
But finally I dropped it. I want my KDVD to be played in my SAP, and if possible, with the garantee they'll be playable in my future SAP. So mencoder wasn't useful for my purpose.

I don't mind to test anything claimed to be good, to improve further my encodings. But I want to play them later on a SAP, not just my PC. If not, I just find it a toy, but not a tool for backing up my DVDs. Well, just my opinion.

If nothing changed in mencoder (or lavc) related to MPEG2 or ratecontrol, if mencoder keeps noncompliant, I don't see the point to test it again. Just to play again, not serious encoding. (I don't mind to play, I enjoyed it a lot when playing with command-line and so... but keeping in mind it won't be useful to be played on SAP).

Again, just a personal opinion.

Sagittaire · #96 01-09-2006, 05:24 PM

Quote:

I remember I did intensive testing with mencoder a year and a half ago. I had problems with bitrate spikes when encoding for KDVD (with maxbitrate 5000 I got spikes around 11000, that my SAP didn't play).

you can post little example with source ...

Dialhot · #97 01-09-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by incredible

Now again you took your 1928374746th attempt to say that Mencoder or libavcodec in general for mpeg2 is the "best" (a word you like in general) which resulted in a 193736347th "Please not again" from here.

Then why not little challenge ... ???

193736347th + 1

10 people on one hand that knows about mencoder, you on the other hand with this "No need to discuss with me... I'm always right" signature. Grow up (anyone)

BTW, this toppic is not the one of the current thread.

Sagittaire · #98 01-09-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagittaire

Well I don't speak about only Libavcodec : if LAVC MPEG2 don't produce compliant stream ... we not include LAVC stream in Challenge. There are other MPEG2 encoder like CCE, ProCoder, Mainconcept, HCEnc ... etc etc etc

Challenge will be open only for MPEG2 encoder with certified compliant stream.

But little question : how do you check MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ... ???

I quote myself ... it's open challenge ... there are other MPEG2 encoder.

and I repeat my question : you say encoder X or encoder Y don't produce MPEG2 DVD compliant stream but how do you check MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ... ???