Quantcast New KVCD Template Posted - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
05-19-2002, 11:56 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi all:

I am very happy to announce new settings and new templates.

The changes were inspired by many questions and suggestions from many of you.

One of the most talked topics is re-encoding a movie twice in order to increase quality, because the first encode was 100MB less than the CD-R's max size, etc. and there was a lot of space left.

Then users increase CQ and find that the second encode was way over 800MB!

This was getting tired, for me too!, so I decided to investigate the posibility of increasing the quality to a point where there is no more quality increase by tweaking parameters, but still maintain the 120 minute goal per CD-R

And I did

Here are the changes that were made to the templates, with a description of the changes:


1) The CQ is now 80 instead of 70.
Of all the test's I've done, increasing above 80, increases the file size. But the visual quality is barely noticeable.

2) The MAX bit rate was brought down from 2,300Kbps to 1,450Kbps

I hear you! This is going to cause a blocky picture!
That's what I thought, and I was wrong.

For the current resolution, 1,450Kbps is visually blockless up to fast scenes. On very high speed scenes, the macro blocks are present, but the eye can barely distinguish them. The very high speed scenes on a DVD will look blurred anyway, and on a KVCD you'll also see a blurred scene.

If you were to do a "Pause" on a very high speed scene on a KVCD, then of course you'll see some unaligned macroblocks, but for practical purposes, they're invisible. Actually on a regular VCD there are more visible blocks on a high speed scene than on a KVCD.

3) Because the CQ was increased to 80, I was able to increase th GOP again a little, to gain compression. The new GOP structure is now 1-18-3-1-0. Before it was 1-12-3-1-0.

4) Detect scene change dropped. Why? There is no visual increase in quality with TMPEG and this option set. It just inserts I frames, even at non-scene change points, as I have been able to observe.

This actually kills the advantage of the large GOP structure, because every time an I frame is inserted, there are no predictive frames to compare.

5) Audio. ( Thanks Luis! )
It has been changed to Dual Channel. Before, we were using "Joint Stereo" to compress more data.

The results were great, but "Dolby Surround" would be lost!.
Changing this to dual channel solves the problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do we accomplish with all of this changes? What are the results?

It is now possible to encode a movie, and never worry if the final size will fit or not in one CD-R.

You won't see a quality increase if you raise the CQ from 80 to 100.
Visually speaking. So If your final size came out to 700MB, don't bother to re-encode at a higher CQ, because you won't see the difference.

If you raise your MAX bit rate above 1,450Kbps, you'll increase the file size, but the same applies to the visual quality. You'll barely see a difference.

And if your encode was way over 800MB you have two choices:
1) Just cut the movie in half and burn in 2 CD-R's
2) Lower your resolution to 352x240(28 and re-encode. If you still want to try to get it in one CD-R.

My choice is #1. Because the quality is now saturated to the maximum that TMPEG can make at the current settings, it makes more sense to just put the movie in 2 CD-R's.

And because this method still maintains an average of 90 to 120 minutes per CD-R, we can easily fit a 3+ hour movie in 2 CD-R's.

And please, If anyone says something like"I finished my encode, and I had 100+MB unused in the CD-R, this is a waste of space".

My answer right now is this:

"For the price of a CD-R ( about 20 cents or less ), you'll loose more than 20 cents re-encoding at a higher CQ and/or bitrate to end up with the same quality"

So it's not really a waste of space. It will be a waste of time to try to use those extra MB left.

Conclusion:

We can now just encode, and forget about the unpredictable file sizes generated by CQ encoding.

If it fits in one CD-R, fine. If not, cut the MPEG and burn in 2 CD-R's.
No more hassles.

If you still feel that you can live with a lower quality, then either start lowering the CQ or lower your resolution to increase your time per CD-R.

And I want feedback!. Yes I do. I finished Matrix last night with the new parameters, and I just had to cut the last 1 1/2 minute of credits to burn it.

I have posted a small sample here:
http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/sample.mpg

The new templates are available at the main page now.

It's 2.8MB and about 20 seconds.

The quality of this sample is the one retained throughout the complete movie in a single CD-R.
The results viewed on a HDTV are now amazing.

kwag
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  #2  
05-19-2002, 01:33 PM
Omega Omega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Hi all:

2) Lower your resolution to 352x240(280) and re-encode. If you still want to try to get it in one CD-R.
kwag
Hi master kwag -

I'm sure you ment 352x240(28 and not 280 -

Great job, thanks for the templates ...

btw, if anyone has problem cutting the mpeg with TmpegEnc, Mpeg2Vcr, MyFilx etc (program hangs when navigate for/backward to cutting point), just try VCDCutter, it will open and navigate inside the mpeg with no problem ...

OmegaNS
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  #3  
05-19-2002, 03:35 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Hi all:

2) Lower your resolution to 352x240(280) and re-encode. If you still want to try to get it in one CD-R.
kwag
Hi master kwag -

I'm sure you ment 352x240(28 and not 280 -

Great job, thanks for the templates ...

btw, if anyone has problem cutting the mpeg with TmpegEnc, Mpeg2Vcr, MyFilx etc (program hangs when navigate for/backward to cutting point), just try VCDCutter, it will open and navigate inside the mpeg with no problem ...

OmegaNS
Damn butter fingers! Fixed!.

Thanks
kwag
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  #4  
05-19-2002, 08:40 PM
deltaboy deltaboy is offline
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crazy, re-vamped template KWAG. ill have to check it out. but im still a little iffy on dropping the max bitrate by that large of a number. im gonna keep mine at a lowest 1750Kbps.

in regards to the audio being dual channel now, does this apply to using an external encoder like BeSweet? even if im converting from a 5.1 ac3 source?

anyways, GREAT JOB once again!
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  #5  
05-19-2002, 08:58 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaboy
crazy, re-vamped template KWAG. ill have to check it out. but im still a little iffy on dropping the max bitrate by that large of a number. im gonna keep mine at a lowest 1750Kbps.

in regards to the audio being dual channel now, does this apply to using an external encoder like BeSweet? even if im converting from a 5.1 ac3 source?

anyways, GREAT JOB once again!
Thanks deltaboy:

Give it a try at 1,450Kbps, the current value for MAX bit rate. You'll be surprised what TMPEG can do at that bit rate

The problem of the audio has to do with phasing. When you use "joint stereo", the "Dolby Surround" information might get damaged or lost.
And I guess this would apply to any audio encoder as well.

With "Dual Channel", this doesn't happen.

kwag
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  #6  
05-20-2002, 02:51 AM
bilbogod bilbogod is offline
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Dammit Kwag.....All of these new templates ...LOL

Will try this out just as soon as I get something juicy to encode. Off to Blockbuster later to (err back up something for them
laters.......
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  #7  
05-20-2002, 04:16 AM
aderunn3r aderunn3r is offline
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hey kwag,
what advantage is there to encode a 352x480 over 352x240, i've never encoded at 352x480 i always lower it to 352x240.
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  #8  
05-20-2002, 09:49 AM
taliyev taliyev is offline
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Hi Everybody!

Are KVCD templates going to be as good for the home DV as they for movies? I concern about lover frame rates on NTSC Film vs. NTSC.

Thank you.
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  #9  
05-20-2002, 09:58 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |3|aderunn3r
hey kwag,
what advantage is there to encode a 352x480 over 352x240, i've never encoded at 352x480 i always lower it to 352x240.
You get a much sharper image. You have twice the amount of vieweable pixels.
Just like 720x480 would be even better, it would require a much higher bit rate, and the goal of 120+ minutes in a CD-R would be lost.

kwag
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  #10  
05-20-2002, 11:03 AM
bilbogod bilbogod is offline
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Well I've got the Grandaddy of all movies underway with this new template. Apocalypse Now Redux (195 mins) which is obviously going to be put onto 2 cds. Will see how it turns out in about 1 hour.
I'd like to see someone get this onto 1 cd
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  #11  
05-20-2002, 12:36 PM
NYPlayer NYPlayer is offline
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Kwag,

I use your settings in DVD2SVCD which is now capable of doing VCD's. Here are the results. DVD2SVCD figures out the appropriate CQ setting for each movie. The Picture qualityb was superb.

AVS Script

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("E:\film\DVD2AVI_PROJECT_FILE.d2v")
BilinearResize(352,352,0,0,720,480)
TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(0,64,0,64)
#Trim(0,142389).FadeOut(150)
#ResampleAudio(44100) # CCE 2.5 'crashfix' for Athlons
#== If you want this 'fix' permanently, edit the INI-file:
#== Under [AVSscript] set the CCEcrashfix-option to
#== CCEcrashfix=1




GENEREL INFO
- Source: DVD (NTSC)
- Movie Offset: 0 sec
- CD Overlap seconds: No
- Startup delays: Video: 344 ms Audio 1: 344 msAudio 2: 344 ms
- Video format: NTSC
- Length: 01:38:56
- CD Images:


VIDEO INFO:
- Encoder: TMPGEnc 2.54.36.134
- Rate Control Mode: Constant quality (CQ)
- Max. bitrate: 1450
- CQ Value 81.70
- Min. bitrate: 300
- Motion search prec.: Normal
- Field order: No
- DC component prec.: 10 bits
- Output YUV as YCbCr: No
- Floating point DCT: Yes
- No motion search: False
- Soften block noise: No
- iDCT Algorithm: 32-bit SSE MMX
- Resize method: BilinearResize
- Temporal smoother: Yes, Strength: 2 Radius: 2
- Sharpen: No
- NTSC Field Operation: Force Film On
- Deinterlace: None
- Pulldown: Yes, TMPGEnc internal
- Matrix:
Intra:
8 16 19 22 26 27 29 34
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 37
19 22 26 27 29 34 34 38
22 22 26 27 29 34 37 40
22 26 27 29 32 35 40 48
26 27 29 32 35 40 48 58
26 27 29 34 38 46 56 69
27 29 35 38 46 56 69 83
Non-Intra:
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
19 20 21 22 23 24 26 27
20 21 22 23 25 26 27 28
21 22 23 24 26 27 28 30
22 23 24 26 27 28 30 31
23 24 25 27 28 30 31 33


AUDIO INFO:
- Audiostreams: 1
- Audio 1 Language: English
- Audio 1 Bitrate: 128
- Audio 1 Sample freq: 44100
- Audio 1 Mode: Dual channel
- Audio 1 Besweet: "C:\Program Files\DVD2SVCD\BeSweet\BeSweet.exe" -core( -input "e:\film\Extracted_audio_1.ac3" -output "e:\film\Encoded_audio_1.mp2" -logfile "e:\film\Encoded_audio_1.log" ) -azid( -L -3db -c normal -g max ) -ssrc( --rate 44100 ) -2lame( -e -b 128 -m d )

SUBTITLE INFO:
- Subtitlestreams: 0
- Type:
- Sub. 1 Language:
- Sub. 2 Language:
- Sub. 3 Language:
- Sub. 4 Language:

AUTHORING INFO:
- CD Image program: VCDImager 762 MB (799,421,796 bytes)
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  #12  
05-20-2002, 01:02 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYPlayer
Kwag,

I use your settings in DVD2SVCD which is now capable of doing VCD's. Here are the results. DVD2SVCD figures out the appropriate CQ setting for each movie. The Picture qualityb was superb.
I guess someone has been listening

If the program can figure out an appropiate CQ, then it must be doing some kind of parsing of the VOB's, in order to get an idea of how complex the movie is.

If they have done this, KUDOS to them, as this is something that would be very hard to predict because of the nature of CQ.

I'll take a look at that right now. If we can use a predicted CQ instead of a x-pass VBR, we'll get the best visual results that TMPEG can create.

Thanks for the info!

kwag
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  #13  
05-20-2002, 03:28 PM
m0rdant m0rdant is offline
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When using TMPGenc with DVD2SVCD the program does 4 small sample encodes and uses that to find the CQ level. Seems to work pretty well...I just have to look at it again and figure out how to use your template with it. I did a Divx to KVCD conversion a little while ago...and I'd say the quality was really pretty good, especially when taking into account the fact that the whole movie fit in 650megs. Still not quite good enough for me to give up 2 CD encodes, but very close.

Thanks for the work on this template Kwag.
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  #14  
05-20-2002, 03:51 PM
Bigswaffo Bigswaffo is offline
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Hey Kwag,
I was wondering, since you've probably done encodes with this new template already, how much a difference on the file size does it make?
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  #15  
05-20-2002, 04:30 PM
bilbogod bilbogod is offline
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O.k. first half of (cd1) Apocalypse Redux is done and yes it looks pretty pucker..... Running time for cd 1 is 97.5 mins and with audio as (stereo 224 kbps) comes to a total file size of 778Mb. This sure as hell beats using 5 cds for dvd2svcd with all the extras.
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  #16  
05-20-2002, 06:37 PM
Learner Learner is offline
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Hi Kwag, Thanks for new template. I will test it by tonight.

BTW, I just download new template and find out the GOP setup is 1-18-2-1-0 instead of 1-18-3-1-0. Would you double check it. Thanks
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  #17  
05-20-2002, 08:37 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigswaffo
Hey Kwag,
I was wondering, since you've probably done encodes with this new template already, how much a difference on the file size does it make?
About the same as the old template.

kwag
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  #18  
05-20-2002, 08:42 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Learner
Hi Kwag, Thanks for new template. I will test it by tonight.

BTW, I just download new template and find out the GOP setup is 1-18-2-1-0 instead of 1-18-3-1-0. Would you double check it. Thanks
Thanks!

Typooooooooooooooooo strikes again!!.

I just updated the one in the site.
It should have been 1,18,3,1,0

The PAL was correct.

kwag
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  #19  
05-21-2002, 11:34 AM
PToN PToN is offline
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hummm wasnt the resolution 352x525 ?? now is 352x420 or its my imagination ???
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  #20  
05-21-2002, 11:42 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PToN
hummm wasnt the resolution 352x525 ?? now is 352x420 or its my imagination ???
The NTSC template is 352x480.
The PAL is 352x576.
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