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-   -   KVCD: Faster Encoding, almost the same quality? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/encode/2660-kvcd-faster-encoding.html)

digitalize 02-17-2003 07:34 AM

KVCD: Faster Encoding, almost the same quality?
 
Using the same Quantize Matrix settings used in Kwag's templates, I found the results you get with MainConcept Encoder are excellent and the compression gives you about the same file size, if not better. The main difference is the speed. On TMPGenc it takes about 3.5 hours to do a 1.5 hour movie. When using the MainConcept Encoder trial, I was able to finish the movie in a little less than 1.5 hours. The speed is amazing and the quality is just as good as TMPGenc, plus it only costs 150 compared to hundreds and thousands for the speed of CCE. For the advanced user it has 100's of settings and is easy to use for the novice. The only problem is you have to manually enter Kwags Quantize Matrix settings which takes a while. This is a product worth checking out.
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_encoder.shtml

Jellygoose 02-17-2003 09:53 AM

Well I'm always sceptical towards new encoders that beat TMPGEnc but I just recently learned at Doom9 that there are many people with their nose stuck up, that they sometimes only see what they want to see, so I'll check this encoder out tonight and let you know what I think.

How about changing the GOP and loading AVS Files to be able to use filters? do you know about that?

digitalize 02-17-2003 10:10 AM

Crashes on loading of simple avs script. You are able to change the GOP settings though. You can create an avi out of a TMPGEnc project and use that, but it really kills the speed frameserving like that.

kwag 02-17-2003 10:42 AM

I installed it some weeks ago, and it lasted less than 30 miutes in my computer :). It's no match for TMPEG. I did several tests without filters. Just encoder to encoder comparison. The results were good, but the quality produced by TMPEG is far superior. Not sure about MPEG-2. All tests I made were MPEG-1.

-kwag

HansLuyten 03-11-2003 02:13 PM

Did any of you play with the latest version (1.3.1), I have to say that I really like the results. In http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....ht=mainconcept you can see that I converted the inter and intra matrix used in the KVCD template to MPEG Encoder, and I have to say that on my TV (a widescreen 100 Hz TV) I cannot see the differences in quality between TMPGEnc and MainConcept MPEG Encoder.
Would be great to have KVCD templates on MainConcept as well. However, inserting the GOP is something that I haven't managed to do yet :(
The Q-matrix did improve compression already ... 108 minutes = 977Mb.

kwag 03-11-2003 02:52 PM

Hi HansLuyten,

I'm downloading the newest version right now. I'll give it a try again :D

-kwag

Racer99 03-11-2003 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansLuyten
Would be great to have KVCD templates on MainConcept as well. However, inserting the GOP is something that I haven't managed to do yet :(
The Q-matrix did improve compression already ... 108 minutes = 977Mb.

In which mode did you encode? CQ or VBR?

I have been using it for MPEG-2 for storing 3 movies (regardless of length) / DVD. That means I am using approx 1.5 GB for each movies (roughly the same as a 2 CD backup).

I have experimented with both CQ and VBR. The quality with the CQ setting of 1 is excellent (probably the same as TMPGEnc settings of CQ=100. But file prediction is difficult. The quality doesn't really drop off for me until you get to a CQ value of 5 or greater (whole numbers only :( ).

I have been using VBR mainly because I am satisfied with the results (unfortunately it is only 1 pass). I am using Kwag's Q Matrix (more on this later). As for the GOP since I am transferring it to DVD I am constrained to a got no larger than 18 (NTSC).

I have to frameserve via VFAPI converter. By setting the picture size in the AVS Script / TMPGEnc project file and then converting I was able to encode at 528x480 with no issues.

Typically I get encoded time ratios of about 2:1. That is 2 hours per 1 hour of video when using scripts like below. (P4-2.53Ghz, 1024MB RAM:
Quote:

LegalClip()
LanczosResize(704,352,0,0,720,480)
mergechroma(blur(1.50))
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40,1,6,1,3,false)
AddBorders(8,64,8,64)
LegalClip()
Here are some of my settings for MPEGEncoder. (Search for the description to locate). It is best to save the project and then open the .mes file it creates in your text editor.NOTE: These are parameters only for DVD compliant MPEG-2 video
Quote:

iFramesInGOP=18
ipFrameDistance=3
mquantValue=1
maxBitrate=600000
avgBitrate=237500
minBitrate=60000
intraDCPrec=0
vbvBufferSize=112
KWAG's Notch Matrix - Copy and paste over the settings in your saved project file
user_iquant=1
intra_q[0]=8
intra_q[1]=9
intra_q[2]=12
intra_q[3]=22
intra_q[4]=26
intra_q[5]=27
intra_q[6]=29
intra_q[7]=34
intra_q[8]=9
intra_q[9]=10
intra_q[10]=14
intra_q[11]=26
intra_q[12]=27
intra_q[13]=29
intra_q[14]=34
intra_q[15]=37
intra_q[16]=12
intra_q[17]=14
intra_q[18]=18
intra_q[19]=27
intra_q[20]=29
intra_q[21]=34
intra_q[22]=37
intra_q[23]=38
intra_q[24]=22
intra_q[25]=26
intra_q[26]=27
intra_q[27]=31
intra_q[28]=36
intra_q[29]=37
intra_q[30]=38
intra_q[31]=40
intra_q[32]=26
intra_q[33]=27
intra_q[34]=29
intra_q[35]=36
intra_q[36]=39
intra_q[37]=38
intra_q[38]=40
intra_q[39]=48
intra_q[40]=27
intra_q[41]=29
intra_q[42]=34
intra_q[43]=37
intra_q[44]=38
intra_q[45]=40
intra_q[46]=48
intra_q[47]=58
intra_q[48]=29
intra_q[49]=34
intra_q[50]=37
intra_q[51]=38
intra_q[52]=40
intra_q[53]=48
intra_q[54]=58
intra_q[55]=69
intra_q[56]=34
intra_q[57]=37
intra_q[58]=38
intra_q[59]=40
intra_q[60]=48
intra_q[61]=58
intra_q[62]=69
intra_q[63]=79
user_niquant=1
inter_q[0]=16
inter_q[1]=18
inter_q[2]=20
inter_q[3]=22
inter_q[4]=24
inter_q[5]=26
inter_q[6]=28
inter_q[7]=30
inter_q[8]=18
inter_q[9]=20
inter_q[10]=22
inter_q[11]=24
inter_q[12]=26
inter_q[13]=28
inter_q[14]=30
inter_q[15]=32
inter_q[16]=20
inter_q[17]=22
inter_q[18]=24
inter_q[19]=26
inter_q[20]=28
inter_q[21]=30
inter_q[22]=32
inter_q[23]=34
inter_q[24]=22
inter_q[25]=24
inter_q[26]=26
inter_q[27]=30
inter_q[28]=32
inter_q[29]=32
inter_q[30]=34
inter_q[31]=36
inter_q[32]=24
inter_q[33]=26
inter_q[34]=28
inter_q[35]=32
inter_q[36]=34
inter_q[37]=34
inter_q[38]=36
inter_q[39]=38
inter_q[40]=26
inter_q[41]=28
inter_q[42]=30
inter_q[43]=32
inter_q[44]=34
inter_q[45]=36
inter_q[46]=38
inter_q[47]=40
inter_q[48]=28
inter_q[49]=30
inter_q[50]=32
inter_q[51]=34
inter_q[52]=36
inter_q[53]=38
inter_q[54]=42
inter_q[55]=42
inter_q[56]=30
inter_q[57]=32
inter_q[58]=34
inter_q[59]=36
inter_q[60]=38
inter_q[61]=40
inter_q[62]=42
inter_q[63]=44
Now once you have sucessfully got all you parameters configured you then can save your settings under the Options menu by "Save settings as a Profile". This will basically create a "Kwag" like template. Be advised that you basically only have to change a few things to make it MPEG-1 for non-standard VCD's. For this format the quality in my opinion is good, but not as good as all the work that has been done by everyone here for TMPGEnc. I also think that the quality is marginally better for MPEG-2, but the trade off in speed and ease of encoding makes it more worthwhile.

Do a sampler encode in both modes and see for yourself.

kwag 03-11-2003 05:19 PM

Hi Racer99,

I'm currently trying it out, and I also had to do a VFAPIConvert from my .avs. It bombed every time I tried to load an .avs, even with the resampleaudio line added to the script :cry:
I wish it could read it directly, because reading the pseudo-avi file is way slower :!: I'm testing in VBR mode with average bit rate value read from MovieStacker.
Just a 352x240 encode to see final quality and file size. I haven't patched the matrix yet.

-kwag

Racer99 03-11-2003 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Hi Racer99,

I'm currently trying it out, and I also had to do a VFAPIConvert from my .avs. It bombed every time I tried to load an .avs, even with the resampleaudio line added to the script :cry:
I wish it could read it directly, because reading the pseudo-avi file is way slower :!: I'm testing in VBR mode with average bit rate value read from MovieStacker.
Just a 352x240 encode to see final quality and file size. I haven't patched the matrix yet.

-kwag

The pseudo avi file stinks I admit. :evil:

Most of my encodes are 720x480 or 704x480 (Full DVD D-1). I'm getting on average 3-4 hour encode times vs. 7-9 for Tmpgenc. I just wish they would work on SPEED!!!. :twisted:

Racer99

kwag 03-11-2003 05:38 PM

We have to call Mr. Hori in Japan so he re-writes VFAPIConverter :lol:

Edit: Have you tried to open the .avs with Vdub, and frameserve to the encoder :idea:

-kwag

Racer99 03-11-2003 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
We have to call Mr. Hori in Japan so he re-writes VFAPIConverter :lol:

Edit: Have you tried to open the .avs with Vdub, and frameserve to the encoder :idea:

-kwag

Not successfully, but then I've never been very successful in doing in TMPGEnc either. I must be doing something wrong. I have read the suggestions and posts but still have been unable to get it to function properly. I'll try some more tonight when I get home from work in an hour.

Racer99

kwag 03-11-2003 11:05 PM

Here's the veredict on MainConcept MPEG Encoder.
The quality produced at 352x240 is almost the same as TMPEG. Maybe just a little more flying artifacts around objects, but very hard to tell. Now at 528x480, it's a complete different story :? I started to encode the same movie I did at 352x240 ("S1M0NE") using the same average bit rate (891) as suggested by MovieStacket, but of course changing the MAX to 2,500 and MIN to 300. The result: Disaster 8O
On low action scenes, it looks very good. Whenever there's some high speed action, it's just massive blocks everywhere :!: So the bit rate just doesn't cover the bandwidth required for the demand. Just like TMPEG in MVBR mode and fixing an average bit rate on the "Force picture type" screen. So for 352x240, it's fine. Anything else, TMPEG just blows it away in CQ mode. Simple as that.
I forgot to mention that I tried with the default MainConcept Q. Matrix and also KVCD's "Notch" matrix. The results were basically the same.

My $0.02 cents :!:
-kwag

kwag 03-13-2003 04:54 AM

MediaConcept Encoder in MPEG-2
 
I just finished doing a couple of tests, and this encoder in MPEG-2 apparently is something completely different than in MPEG-1 mode :D

I'm currently frameserving this script with VirtualDub:

Code:

#==============================================#
# -= AviSynth script by MovieStacker v1.1.1 =- #
#==============================================#

LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\MPEG2Dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\NoMoSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\Convolution3D.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\GripFit_preview.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\DustV5.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\LegalClip.dll")

Mpeg2Source("K:\S1M0NE_WS\VIDEO_TS\simone.d2v")
LegalClip()
GripCrop(528, 480, overscan=2)
GripSize(resizer="BilinearResize")
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40, 1, 6, 1, 3)
Convolution3D(preset="movieHQ")
GripBorders()
LegalClip()

And MediaConcept is processing it perfectly :D
I'll report here when the encode is done. Estimated time is ~5 hours.

-kwag

jamesp 03-14-2003 09:59 AM

Re: MediaConcept Encoder in MPEG-2
 
Kwag,

How did it look?

Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
I just finished doing a couple of tests, and this encoder in MPEG-2 apparently is something completely different than in MPEG-1 mode :D

I'm currently frameserving this script with VirtualDub:

Code:

#==============================================#
# -= AviSynth script by MovieStacker v1.1.1 =- #
#==============================================#

LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\MPEG2Dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\NoMoSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\Convolution3D.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\GripFit_preview.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\DustV5.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\LegalClip.dll")

Mpeg2Source("K:\S1M0NE_WS\VIDEO_TS\simone.d2v")
LegalClip()
GripCrop(528, 480, overscan=2)
GripSize(resizer="BilinearResize")
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40, 1, 6, 1, 3)
Convolution3D(preset="movieHQ")
GripBorders()
LegalClip()

And MediaConcept is processing it perfectly :D
I'll report here when the encode is done. Estimated time is ~5 hours.

-kwag


kwag 03-14-2003 10:51 AM

Re: MediaConcept Encoder in MPEG-2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesp
Kwag,

How did it look?

Jim

Hi Jim,

It looks very good, except on high motion :x
The final file size was almost on target. ~19MB smaller.
I guess that for high bit rates, for DVD targets, this encoder is priceless :!: It IS better that Cinemacraft, in the limited tests I did yesterday. I encoded this: http://www.tecoltd.com/enctest/enctest.htm by downloading the ~80MB avi and the produced sample I encoded with MediaConcept encoder looks better than CCEs sample :D . Specially the scene when the girl is in the water. I also encoded the same clip with TMPEG, and the result on CCE looks slightly better than TMPEGs, I have to say that! But only on that scene where there are many small particles (water). But the MediaConcept encoder looks FAR better than both TMPEG or CCE. It's a shame that it doesn't work very good at low average bit rates :cry: The samples I encoded were using an average bit rate of ~5,000Kbps.
We must keep an eye on future versions of this encoder :idea:
Hopefully MediaConcept will read these posts and fine tune their encoder on the weak areas. The encoder also has a CQ mode like TMPEG, and it works when you set the MIN bit rate to 0. Then you can choose the quality value to encode in a similar way as we do with TMPEG. The only problem I see is that in TMPEG we have a range of 0 to 100, but in MediaConcept is only about 1 to 31 and no decimal values allowed, so the scaling wouldn't work very accurate with file prediction because of the large increment steps. We'll keep playing with it :wink:

And that's it :)
-kwag

Holomatrix 03-16-2003 03:21 AM

So for us that do not encode to DVD yet :( TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?

kwag 03-16-2003 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holomatrix
So for us that do not encode to DVD yet :( TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?

Yes it is, and it's called MPEG-1 :D
Seriously, the difference is SO small in MPEG-2 between CCE, MCE and TMPEG, that TMPEG is still the winner because it provides many tools that no other encoder does. TMPEG is the "Swiss Army Knife" of the encoders :wink:
And for low bit rates and MPEG-1, TMPEG just wipes them all out :mrgreen:

-kwag

jorel 03-16-2003 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:

Originally Posted by Holomatrix
So for us that do not encode to DVD yet :( TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?

Yes it is, and it's called MPEG-1 :D
Seriously, the difference is SO small in MPEG-2 between CCE, MCE and TMPEG, that TMPEG is still the winner because it provides many tools that no other encoder does. TMPEG is the "Swiss Army Knife" of the encoders :wink:
And for low bit rates and MPEG-1, TMPEG just wipes them all out :mrgreen:

-kwag

i'm with you again Kwag, :wink:

i test all encoders many times to compare and TMPGenc is super because it provides many tools that no other encoder does.
:wink:

Holomatrix 03-16-2003 01:05 PM

OK, but I thought mpeg 1 doesn't do chapters ? what does mpeg 2 have over mpeg 1? and when you say low bitrate do you mean under 2500? use mpeg 2 for 2500 and up?

kwag 03-16-2003 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holomatrix
OK, but I thought mpeg 1 doesn't do chapters ?

Sure it does :D. All my MPEG-1 KVCDs have chapters :!: You use ChapterXtractor to retrieve the chapters from your .IFO, and pasted them on VCDEasy. The result: The original DVD chapters on your KVCDs :wink:
Quote:

what does mpeg 2 have over mpeg 1?
Basically interlaced video and scalability above ~2.5Mbps. Other than that, slightly less video quality and stability than MPEG-1 at ~0-2.5Mbps. More protocol overhead, so decoders have to work harder.
Quote:

and when you say low bitrate do you mean under 2500? use mpeg 2 for 2500 and up?
That is correct :)

-kwag

Holomatrix 03-16-2003 01:59 PM

Ok, well since I de-interlace my DVD if it is interlaced then I should go with MPEG1? or now I have more testing to do :)
Thanks

Racer99 03-17-2003 11:36 PM

Re: MediaConcept Encoder in MPEG-2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
I just finished doing a couple of tests, and this encoder in MPEG-2 apparently is something completely different than in MPEG-1 mode :D

I'm currently frameserving this script with VirtualDub:

Code:

#==============================================#
# -= AviSynth script by MovieStacker v1.1.1 =- #
#==============================================#

LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\MPEG2Dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\NoMoSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\Convolution3D.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\GripFit_preview.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\DustV5.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\LegalClip.dll")

Mpeg2Source("K:\S1M0NE_WS\VIDEO_TS\simone.d2v")
LegalClip()
GripCrop(528, 480, overscan=2)
GripSize(resizer="BilinearResize")
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40, 1, 6, 1, 3)
Convolution3D(preset="movieHQ")
GripBorders()
LegalClip()

And MediaConcept is processing it perfectly :D
I'll report here when the encode is done. Estimated time is ~5 hours.

-kwag

Please explain how you frameserved to MPEGEncoder. Did you still use VfapiConvEn to create Pseudo Avi File?

Thanks.

Racer99

kwag 03-17-2003 11:44 PM

Hi Racer99,

I just open the .avs above with Vdub, and frameserve to a file called "server.avi", and open that with MCE :D
Make sure you select "Stream Type: Video" after you open the frameserved file.

-kwag

Racer99 03-17-2003 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Hi Racer99,

I just open the .avs above with Vdub, and frameserve to a file called "server.avi", and open that with MCE :D
Make sure you select "Stream Type: Video" after you open the frameserved file.

-kwag

When I try to do this, MCE crashes upon trying to load the file
Is there anything special you have to place in the .avs file?

Thanks
Racer99

phibertron 03-18-2003 02:18 AM

You could check the MCE modules
Click on Options then Import Modules
I unchecked/disabled DirectShow Import to get .avs to work
otherwise it would just crash on me

phibertron

Racer99 03-18-2003 06:32 AM

Thanks Philberton,

That did the trick.

Racer99

Bchteam 03-18-2003 01:41 PM

Quote:

You use ChapterXtractor to retrieve the chapters from your .IFO, and pasted them on VCDEasy. The result: The original DVD chapters on your KVCDs
Which preset do I have to take for VCDEasy???

kwag 03-18-2003 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bchteam
Quote:

You use ChapterXtractor to retrieve the chapters from your .IFO, and pasted them on VCDEasy. The result: The original DVD chapters on your KVCDs
Which preset do I have to take for VCDEasy???

"Paste ChapterXtractor (RAW) data"

-kwag

Bchteam 03-19-2003 04:55 AM

How can I copy the Chapter's from ChapetrXtractor???

kwag 03-19-2003 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bchteam
How can I copy the Chapter's from ChapetrXtractor???

After you open your .IFO with ChapterXtractor, you select the chapters with your mouse, right click and "Copy" and then on the chapters in VCDEasy, right click and "Paste".

-kwag

HansLuyten 06-28-2003 09:33 AM

Re: MediaConcept Encoder in MPEG-2
 
Hi Kwag,

great to see that you played a bit with MPEGEncoder.
I wrote a little tutorial for those who wish to convert AVI + subs to MPEG 1/2 using MPEG Encoder: http://www.weethet.nl/english/video_...ainconcept.php

Also good to know: MainConcept handles AC3 -> stereo conversion pretty well, something TMPGEnc doesn't.

Still trying to get some of the KVCD templates into MainConcept, but it's not very easy .... :wink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesp
Kwag,

How did it look?

Jim

Hi Jim,

It looks very good, except on high motion :x
The final file size was almost on target. ~19MB smaller.
I guess that for high bit rates, for DVD targets, this encoder is priceless :!: It IS better that Cinemacraft, in the limited tests I did yesterday. I encoded this: http://www.tecoltd.com/enctest/enctest.htm by downloading the ~80MB avi and the produced sample I encoded with MediaConcept encoder looks better than CCEs sample :D . Specially the scene when the girl is in the water. I also encoded the same clip with TMPEG, and the result on CCE looks slightly better than TMPEGs, I have to say that! But only on that scene where there are many small particles (water). But the MediaConcept encoder looks FAR better than both TMPEG or CCE. It's a shame that it doesn't work very good at low average bit rates :cry: The samples I encoded were using an average bit rate of ~5,000Kbps.
We must keep an eye on future versions of this encoder :idea:
Hopefully MediaConcept will read these posts and fine tune their encoder on the weak areas. The encoder also has a CQ mode like TMPEG, and it works when you set the MIN bit rate to 0. Then you can choose the quality value to encode in a similar way as we do with TMPEG. The only problem I see is that in TMPEG we have a range of 0 to 100, but in MediaConcept is only about 1 to 31 and no decimal values allowed, so the scaling wouldn't work very accurate with file prediction because of the large increment steps. We'll keep playing with it :wink:

And that's it :)
-kwag


kwag 06-28-2003 01:37 PM

Excelent tutorial and site HansLuyten :D

-kwag

HansLuyten 06-29-2003 04:44 AM

Thanks :)

I hope you noticed the K(S)VCD tuts as well ;)

kwag 06-29-2003 09:31 AM

Sure did!
A quick search at "Google" on "KVCD", shows the tuts immediately :)

-kwag

HansLuyten 06-29-2003 02:06 PM

Kewl,... didn't no that :)
Always good to be ranked in the first 10 :)

I'm currently - still - trying to optimize the MainConcept Encoder, but haven't achieved the performance you tweaked out of TMPGEnc :(
Wish I could - it takes a lot of time, thinking and then finding out that it didn't work the way you expected it to be :) I guess you had an even harder time to get the KVCD templates :)
I now even more respect your work ... :)

kwag 06-29-2003 06:04 PM

Hey thanks HansLuyten :)

I've tried MCE many times and it works good, maybe even better than TMPEG, but only at 352x240(288) :!:
I've tried encoding at 528x480, and even at 352x480, and MCE just does an awful job on bitrate allocation. If I try to encode something at 352x480 or higher ( 528x480, etc. ) and I set a MIN bitrate at 300Kbps, Average at 800Kbps, and MAX at 2,500Kbps, it always screws up on the max 8O
It follows the average bitrate, so your final file size is always on the mark, but bitrate never reaches above ~1,400 to ~1,500Kbps :!:
So it works very well at 352x, but that's about it :?

-kwag

HansLuyten 06-30-2003 05:11 AM

I'm afraid you're right ... :(
ME is pretty bad in lowbitrates, although it seems to perform better when using a rather high maxmimum bitrate (keep min/avg te same) ... I'll keep experimenting with this ;)
Hopefully MainConcept fixes this soon ... althoug a good hardware encoder would be nice too ... I think curently most are not that great in quality and I haven't seen that many that support trasncoding ...

digitalize 09-12-2003 07:55 AM

Try the new MainConcept 1.4. The speed is unbelievable. When using the DVD preset profile, it is faster than CCE!!!!!! I have not tried any encodes below a 2500 average, so I do not know if lower bitrate encoding has improved. It does now offer 2-pass encoding, which may help. You can also change a lot of settings to help improve the encode, like Motion search pixel movement. These are explained in the help file, but will slow down your encode.

HansLuyten 09-12-2003 10:34 AM

Thanks for the tip :)
I'll visit them right away and see what the new version offers ...

KingTuk 09-15-2003 10:17 PM

I tried the new MainConcept 1.4 encoder and The results are great so far for KSVCD... I made a template for NTSC and PAL; the settings could probably still be tweaked and I've only tested 480x480 and 480x576 resolutions.
What I've done is load the movie into MovieStacker and find out the average bitrate then I put that average bitrate into MainConcept and encode the movie and it gets real close to the target size...
I used MainConcept to encode both the audio and video...
here is the NTSC template
[MAIN]
StreamType=4
MpegType=3
VideoMode=0
AudioMode=2
Width=480
Height=480
DestStartX=0
DestStartY=0
DestWidth=480
DestHeight=480
SrcStartX=0
SrcStartY=0
SrcWidth=480
SrcHeight=480
FlipVertical=0
SampleRate=44100
LineFiltering=0
Deinterlacing=0
Passes=1
ID=mep-profile
Name=KSVCD-NTSC
[WaveAudio]
Channels=64000
Bits=192
[basic]
settingsVersion=2
online=1
perfLevel=27
motionSearchType=23
mpegType=3
deinterlacing_mode=0
relaxed_standards=0
[video]
videoPulldownFlag=0
rateControlMode=1
aspectRatio=2
frameRateCode=4
iFramesInGOP=18
ipFrameDistance=3
bitrateFlag=0
mquantValue=12
constBitrate=2375000
maxBitrate=2420000
avgBitrate=2376000
minBitrate=300000
timeCode0=0
dropFrameTC=0
constrParms=0
closedGOPs=0
[audio]
audioLayer=2
audioMode=2
deEmphasis=0
audioBitrate=7
privateBit=0
copyrightBit=0
originalBit=0
errorProtection=1
psychModel=2
[multiplex]
programStreamType=3
vbrMultiplex=1
padVCDAudio=0
writeProgramEndCode=1
muxSVCDScanOffsets=1
alignSequenceHeaders=1
usePrivateStream2=0
useComputedBitrate=0
frameTimestamps=0
muxPulldownFlag=3
userMuxRate=6972
sectorSize=2324
packetsPerPack=1
videoBufferSize=230
audioBufferSize=4
audio1BufferSize=4
sectorDelay=0
videoDelay=180
audioDelay=180
audio1Delay=180
alwaysWriteSysHeader=0
maxFileSize=0
muxStartTime=0
muxStopTime=0
resetClocks=1
setBrokenLink=1
writeEndCodes=1
[advVideo]
profile=4
level=8
chromaFormat=1
colorPrimaries=4
transferCharacteristics=4
matrixCoefficients=5
videoFormat=2
intraDCPrec=0
vbvBufferSize=112
forceVBVDelay=1
displayHorizontalSize=480
displayVerticalSize=480
progressiveSequence=0
progressiveFrame=0
fieldPictures=0
topFieldFirst=0
repeatFirstField=0
intraVLCFormatI=1
intraVLCFormatP=1
intraVLCFormatB=1
framePredDCTI=0
framePredDCTP=0
framePredDCTB=0
quantizationScaleI=1
quantizationScaleP=1
quantizationScaleB=1
alternateScanI=1
alternateScanP=1
alternateScanB=1
writeSequenceDisplayExt=0
writeSequenceEveryGOP=1
writeSequenceEndCode=1
embedSVCDUserBlocks=1
writePictureDisplayExt=0
frameCentreHorizontalOffset=0
frameCentreVerticalOffset=0
qtNoiseSensitivity=5
featureFlags=0
reactionParameter=0
initialAverageActivity=0
initialIComplexity=0
initialPComplexity=0
initialBComplexity=0
initialIFullness=0
initialPFullness=0
initialBFullness=0
minFramePercentage=25
padFramePercentage=0
autoVectorLengths=0
horzPelMovement=3
vertPelMovement=3
forwHorzFCodeP=4
forwVertFCodeP=4
forwHorzSearchP=33
forwVertSearchP=33
forwHorzFCodeB1=2
forwVertFCodeB1=2
forwHorzSearchB1=11
forwVertSearchB1=11
backHorzFCodeB1=3
backVertFCodeB1=3
backHorzSearchB1=22
backVertSearchB1=22
forwHorzFCodeB2=3
forwVertFCodeB2=3
forwHorzSearchB2=22
forwVertSearchB2=22
backHorzFCodeB2=2
backVertFCodeB2=2
backHorzSearchB2=11
backVertSearchB2=11
forwHorzFCodeB3=0
forwVertFCodeB3=0
forwHorzSearchB3=0
forwVertSearchB3=0
backHorzFCodeB3=0
backVertFCodeB3=0
backHorzSearchB3=0
backVertSearchB3=0
forwHorzFCodeB4=0
forwVertFCodeB4=0
forwHorzSearchB4=0
forwVertSearchB4=0
backHorzFCodeB4=0
backVertFCodeB4=0
backHorzSearchB4=0
backVertSearchB4=0
forwHorzFCodeB5=0
forwVertFCodeB5=0
forwHorzSearchB5=0
forwVertSearchB5=0
backHorzFCodeB5=0
backVertFCodeB5=0
backHorzSearchB5=0
backVertSearchB5=0
forwHorzFCodeB6=0
forwVertFCodeB6=0
forwHorzSearchB6=0
forwVertSearchB6=0
backHorzFCodeB6=0
backVertFCodeB6=0
backHorzSearchB6=0
backVertSearchB6=0
forwHorzFCodeB7=0
forwVertFCodeB7=0
forwHorzSearchB7=0
forwVertSearchB7=0
backHorzFCodeB7=0
backVertFCodeB7=0
backHorzSearchB7=0
backVertSearchB7=0
ignore_frame_interval=0
user_iquant=1
intra_q[0]=8
intra_q[1]=9
intra_q[2]=12
intra_q[3]=22
intra_q[4]=26
intra_q[5]=27
intra_q[6]=29
intra_q[7]=34
intra_q[8]=9
intra_q[9]=10
intra_q[10]=14
intra_q[11]=26
intra_q[12]=27
intra_q[13]=29
intra_q[14]=34
intra_q[15]=37
intra_q[16]=12
intra_q[17]=14
intra_q[18]=18
intra_q[19]=27
intra_q[20]=29
intra_q[21]=34
intra_q[22]=37
intra_q[23]=38
intra_q[24]=22
intra_q[25]=26
intra_q[26]=27
intra_q[27]=31
intra_q[28]=36
intra_q[29]=37
intra_q[30]=38
intra_q[31]=40
intra_q[32]=26
intra_q[33]=27
intra_q[34]=29
intra_q[35]=36
intra_q[36]=39
intra_q[37]=38
intra_q[38]=40
intra_q[39]=48
intra_q[40]=27
intra_q[41]=29
intra_q[42]=34
intra_q[43]=37
intra_q[44]=38
intra_q[45]=40
intra_q[46]=48
intra_q[47]=58
intra_q[48]=29
intra_q[49]=34
intra_q[50]=37
intra_q[51]=38
intra_q[52]=40
intra_q[53]=48
intra_q[54]=58
intra_q[55]=69
intra_q[56]=34
intra_q[57]=37
intra_q[58]=38
intra_q[59]=40
intra_q[60]=48
intra_q[61]=58
intra_q[62]=69
intra_q[63]=79
user_niquant=1
inter_q[0]=16
inter_q[1]=18
inter_q[2]=20
inter_q[3]=22
inter_q[4]=24
inter_q[5]=26
inter_q[6]=28
inter_q[7]=30
inter_q[8]=18
inter_q[9]=20
inter_q[10]=22
inter_q[11]=24
inter_q[12]=26
inter_q[13]=28
inter_q[14]=30
inter_q[15]=32
inter_q[16]=20
inter_q[17]=22
inter_q[18]=24
inter_q[19]=26
inter_q[20]=28
inter_q[21]=30
inter_q[22]=32
inter_q[23]=34
inter_q[24]=22
inter_q[25]=24
inter_q[26]=26
inter_q[27]=30
inter_q[28]=32
inter_q[29]=32
inter_q[30]=34
inter_q[31]=36
inter_q[32]=24
inter_q[33]=26
inter_q[34]=28
inter_q[35]=32
inter_q[36]=34
inter_q[37]=34
inter_q[38]=36
inter_q[39]=38
inter_q[40]=26
inter_q[41]=28
inter_q[42]=30
inter_q[43]=32
inter_q[44]=34
inter_q[45]=36
inter_q[46]=38
inter_q[47]=40
inter_q[48]=28
inter_q[49]=30
inter_q[50]=32
inter_q[51]=34
inter_q[52]=36
inter_q[53]=38
inter_q[54]=42
inter_q[55]=42
inter_q[56]=30
inter_q[57]=32
inter_q[58]=34
inter_q[59]=36
inter_q[60]=38
inter_q[61]=40
inter_q[62]=42
inter_q[63]=44

here is the PAL template

[MAIN]
StreamType=4
MpegType=3
VideoMode=1
AudioMode=2
Width=480
Height=576
DestStartX=0
DestStartY=0
DestWidth=480
DestHeight=576
SrcStartX=0
SrcStartY=0
SrcWidth=480
SrcHeight=576
FlipVertical=0
SampleRate=44100
LineFiltering=0
Deinterlacing=0
Passes=1
ID=mep-profile
Name=KSVCD-PAL
[WaveAudio]
Channels=64000
Bits=192
[basic]
settingsVersion=2
online=1
perfLevel=27
motionSearchType=23
mpegType=3
deinterlacing_mode=0
relaxed_standards=0
[video]
videoPulldownFlag=0
rateControlMode=1
aspectRatio=2
frameRateCode=3
iFramesInGOP=15
ipFrameDistance=3
bitrateFlag=0
mquantValue=12
constBitrate=2375000
maxBitrate=2420000
avgBitrate=2376000
minBitrate=300000
timeCode0=0
dropFrameTC=0
constrParms=0
closedGOPs=0
[audio]
audioLayer=2
audioMode=2
deEmphasis=0
audioBitrate=7
privateBit=0
copyrightBit=0
originalBit=0
errorProtection=1
psychModel=2
[multiplex]
programStreamType=3
vbrMultiplex=1
padVCDAudio=0
writeProgramEndCode=1
muxSVCDScanOffsets=1
alignSequenceHeaders=1
usePrivateStream2=0
useComputedBitrate=0
frameTimestamps=0
muxPulldownFlag=3
userMuxRate=6972
sectorSize=2324
packetsPerPack=1
videoBufferSize=230
audioBufferSize=4
audio1BufferSize=4
sectorDelay=0
videoDelay=180
audioDelay=180
audio1Delay=180
alwaysWriteSysHeader=0
maxFileSize=0
muxStartTime=0
muxStopTime=0
resetClocks=1
setBrokenLink=1
writeEndCodes=1
[advVideo]
profile=4
level=8
chromaFormat=1
colorPrimaries=5
transferCharacteristics=5
matrixCoefficients=5
videoFormat=1
intraDCPrec=0
vbvBufferSize=112
forceVBVDelay=1
displayHorizontalSize=480
displayVerticalSize=576
progressiveSequence=0
progressiveFrame=0
fieldPictures=0
topFieldFirst=0
repeatFirstField=0
intraVLCFormatI=1
intraVLCFormatP=1
intraVLCFormatB=1
framePredDCTI=0
framePredDCTP=0
framePredDCTB=0
quantizationScaleI=1
quantizationScaleP=1
quantizationScaleB=1
alternateScanI=1
alternateScanP=1
alternateScanB=1
writeSequenceDisplayExt=0
writeSequenceEveryGOP=1
writeSequenceEndCode=1
embedSVCDUserBlocks=1
writePictureDisplayExt=0
frameCentreHorizontalOffset=0
frameCentreVerticalOffset=0
qtNoiseSensitivity=5
featureFlags=0
reactionParameter=0
initialAverageActivity=0
initialIComplexity=0
initialPComplexity=0
initialBComplexity=0
initialIFullness=0
initialPFullness=0
initialBFullness=0
minFramePercentage=25
padFramePercentage=0
autoVectorLengths=0
horzPelMovement=3
vertPelMovement=3
forwHorzFCodeP=3
forwVertFCodeP=4
forwHorzSearchP=27
forwVertSearchP=33
forwHorzFCodeB1=2
forwVertFCodeB1=2
forwHorzSearchB1=9
forwVertSearchB1=11
backHorzFCodeB1=3
backVertFCodeB1=3
backHorzSearchB1=18
backVertSearchB1=22
forwHorzFCodeB2=3
forwVertFCodeB2=3
forwHorzSearchB2=18
forwVertSearchB2=22
backHorzFCodeB2=2
backVertFCodeB2=2
backHorzSearchB2=9
backVertSearchB2=11
forwHorzFCodeB3=0
forwVertFCodeB3=0
forwHorzSearchB3=0
forwVertSearchB3=0
backHorzFCodeB3=0
backVertFCodeB3=0
backHorzSearchB3=0
backVertSearchB3=0
forwHorzFCodeB4=0
forwVertFCodeB4=0
forwHorzSearchB4=0
forwVertSearchB4=0
backHorzFCodeB4=0
backVertFCodeB4=0
backHorzSearchB4=0
backVertSearchB4=0
forwHorzFCodeB5=0
forwVertFCodeB5=0
forwHorzSearchB5=0
forwVertSearchB5=0
backHorzFCodeB5=0
backVertFCodeB5=0
backHorzSearchB5=0
backVertSearchB5=0
forwHorzFCodeB6=0
forwVertFCodeB6=0
forwHorzSearchB6=0
forwVertSearchB6=0
backHorzFCodeB6=0
backVertFCodeB6=0
backHorzSearchB6=0
backVertSearchB6=0
forwHorzFCodeB7=0
forwVertFCodeB7=0
forwHorzSearchB7=0
forwVertSearchB7=0
backHorzFCodeB7=0
backVertFCodeB7=0
backHorzSearchB7=0
backVertSearchB7=0
ignore_frame_interval=0
user_iquant=1
intra_q[0]=8
intra_q[1]=9
intra_q[2]=12
intra_q[3]=22
intra_q[4]=26
intra_q[5]=27
intra_q[6]=29
intra_q[7]=34
intra_q[8]=9
intra_q[9]=10
intra_q[10]=14
intra_q[11]=26
intra_q[12]=27
intra_q[13]=29
intra_q[14]=34
intra_q[15]=37
intra_q[16]=12
intra_q[17]=14
intra_q[18]=18
intra_q[19]=27
intra_q[20]=29
intra_q[21]=34
intra_q[22]=37
intra_q[23]=38
intra_q[24]=22
intra_q[25]=26
intra_q[26]=27
intra_q[27]=31
intra_q[28]=36
intra_q[29]=37
intra_q[30]=38
intra_q[31]=40
intra_q[32]=26
intra_q[33]=27
intra_q[34]=29
intra_q[35]=36
intra_q[36]=39
intra_q[37]=38
intra_q[38]=40
intra_q[39]=48
intra_q[40]=27
intra_q[41]=29
intra_q[42]=34
intra_q[43]=37
intra_q[44]=38
intra_q[45]=40
intra_q[46]=48
intra_q[47]=58
intra_q[48]=29
intra_q[49]=34
intra_q[50]=37
intra_q[51]=38
intra_q[52]=40
intra_q[53]=48
intra_q[54]=58
intra_q[55]=69
intra_q[56]=34
intra_q[57]=37
intra_q[58]=38
intra_q[59]=40
intra_q[60]=48
intra_q[61]=58
intra_q[62]=69
intra_q[63]=79
user_niquant=1
inter_q[0]=16
inter_q[1]=18
inter_q[2]=20
inter_q[3]=22
inter_q[4]=24
inter_q[5]=26
inter_q[6]=28
inter_q[7]=30
inter_q[8]=18
inter_q[9]=20
inter_q[10]=22
inter_q[11]=24
inter_q[12]=26
inter_q[13]=28
inter_q[14]=30
inter_q[15]=32
inter_q[16]=20
inter_q[17]=22
inter_q[18]=24
inter_q[19]=26
inter_q[20]=28
inter_q[21]=30
inter_q[22]=32
inter_q[23]=34
inter_q[24]=22
inter_q[25]=24
inter_q[26]=26
inter_q[27]=30
inter_q[28]=32
inter_q[29]=32
inter_q[30]=34
inter_q[31]=36
inter_q[32]=24
inter_q[33]=26
inter_q[34]=28
inter_q[35]=32
inter_q[36]=34
inter_q[37]=34
inter_q[38]=36
inter_q[39]=38
inter_q[40]=26
inter_q[41]=28
inter_q[42]=30
inter_q[43]=32
inter_q[44]=34
inter_q[45]=36
inter_q[46]=38
inter_q[47]=40
inter_q[48]=28
inter_q[49]=30
inter_q[50]=32
inter_q[51]=34
inter_q[52]=36
inter_q[53]=38
inter_q[54]=42
inter_q[55]=42
inter_q[56]=30
inter_q[57]=32
inter_q[58]=34
inter_q[59]=36
inter_q[60]=38
inter_q[61]=40
inter_q[62]=42
inter_q[63]=44


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