Quantcast KVCD: Faster Encoding, Almost the Same Quality? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
02-17-2003, 07:34 AM
digitalize digitalize is offline
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Using the same Quantize Matrix settings used in Kwag's templates, I found the results you get with MainConcept Encoder are excellent and the compression gives you about the same file size, if not better. The main difference is the speed. On TMPGenc it takes about 3.5 hours to do a 1.5 hour movie. When using the MainConcept Encoder trial, I was able to finish the movie in a little less than 1.5 hours. The speed is amazing and the quality is just as good as TMPGenc, plus it only costs 150 compared to hundreds and thousands for the speed of CCE. For the advanced user it has 100's of settings and is easy to use for the novice. The only problem is you have to manually enter Kwags Quantize Matrix settings which takes a while. This is a product worth checking out.
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_encoder.shtml
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  #2  
02-17-2003, 09:53 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Well I'm always sceptical towards new encoders that beat TMPGEnc but I just recently learned at Doom9 that there are many people with their nose stuck up, that they sometimes only see what they want to see, so I'll check this encoder out tonight and let you know what I think.

How about changing the GOP and loading AVS Files to be able to use filters? do you know about that?
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  #3  
02-17-2003, 10:10 AM
digitalize digitalize is offline
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Crashes on loading of simple avs script. You are able to change the GOP settings though. You can create an avi out of a TMPGEnc project and use that, but it really kills the speed frameserving like that.
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  #4  
02-17-2003, 10:42 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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I installed it some weeks ago, and it lasted less than 30 miutes in my computer . It's no match for TMPEG. I did several tests without filters. Just encoder to encoder comparison. The results were good, but the quality produced by TMPEG is far superior. Not sure about MPEG-2. All tests I made were MPEG-1.

-kwag
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  #5  
03-11-2003, 02:13 PM
HansLuyten HansLuyten is offline
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Did any of you play with the latest version (1.3.1), I have to say that I really like the results. In http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....ht=mainconcept you can see that I converted the inter and intra matrix used in the KVCD template to MPEG Encoder, and I have to say that on my TV (a widescreen 100 Hz TV) I cannot see the differences in quality between TMPGEnc and MainConcept MPEG Encoder.
Would be great to have KVCD templates on MainConcept as well. However, inserting the GOP is something that I haven't managed to do yet
The Q-matrix did improve compression already ... 108 minutes = 977Mb.
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  #6  
03-11-2003, 02:52 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi HansLuyten,

I'm downloading the newest version right now. I'll give it a try again

-kwag
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  #7  
03-11-2003, 04:41 PM
Racer99 Racer99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HansLuyten
Would be great to have KVCD templates on MainConcept as well. However, inserting the GOP is something that I haven't managed to do yet
The Q-matrix did improve compression already ... 108 minutes = 977Mb.
In which mode did you encode? CQ or VBR?

I have been using it for MPEG-2 for storing 3 movies (regardless of length) / DVD. That means I am using approx 1.5 GB for each movies (roughly the same as a 2 CD backup).

I have experimented with both CQ and VBR. The quality with the CQ setting of 1 is excellent (probably the same as TMPGEnc settings of CQ=100. But file prediction is difficult. The quality doesn't really drop off for me until you get to a CQ value of 5 or greater (whole numbers only ).

I have been using VBR mainly because I am satisfied with the results (unfortunately it is only 1 pass). I am using Kwag's Q Matrix (more on this later). As for the GOP since I am transferring it to DVD I am constrained to a got no larger than 18 (NTSC).

I have to frameserve via VFAPI converter. By setting the picture size in the AVS Script / TMPGEnc project file and then converting I was able to encode at 528x480 with no issues.

Typically I get encoded time ratios of about 2:1. That is 2 hours per 1 hour of video when using scripts like below. (P4-2.53Ghz, 1024MB RAM:
Quote:
LegalClip()
LanczosResize(704,352,0,0,720,480)
mergechroma(blur(1.50))
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40,1,6,1,3,false)
AddBorders(8,64,8,64)
LegalClip()
Here are some of my settings for MPEGEncoder. (Search for the description to locate). It is best to save the project and then open the .mes file it creates in your text editor.NOTE: These are parameters only for DVD compliant MPEG-2 video
Quote:
iFramesInGOP=18
ipFrameDistance=3
mquantValue=1
maxBitrate=600000
avgBitrate=237500
minBitrate=60000
intraDCPrec=0
vbvBufferSize=112
KWAG's Notch Matrix - Copy and paste over the settings in your saved project file
user_iquant=1
intra_q[0]=8
intra_q[1]=9
intra_q[2]=12
intra_q[3]=22
intra_q[4]=26
intra_q[5]=27
intra_q[6]=29
intra_q[7]=34
intra_q[8]=9
intra_q[9]=10
intra_q[10]=14
intra_q[11]=26
intra_q[12]=27
intra_q[13]=29
intra_q[14]=34
intra_q[15]=37
intra_q[16]=12
intra_q[17]=14
intra_q[18]=18
intra_q[19]=27
intra_q[20]=29
intra_q[21]=34
intra_q[22]=37
intra_q[23]=38
intra_q[24]=22
intra_q[25]=26
intra_q[26]=27
intra_q[27]=31
intra_q[28]=36
intra_q[29]=37
intra_q[30]=38
intra_q[31]=40
intra_q[32]=26
intra_q[33]=27
intra_q[34]=29
intra_q[35]=36
intra_q[36]=39
intra_q[37]=38
intra_q[38]=40
intra_q[39]=48
intra_q[40]=27
intra_q[41]=29
intra_q[42]=34
intra_q[43]=37
intra_q[44]=38
intra_q[45]=40
intra_q[46]=48
intra_q[47]=58
intra_q[48]=29
intra_q[49]=34
intra_q[50]=37
intra_q[51]=38
intra_q[52]=40
intra_q[53]=48
intra_q[54]=58
intra_q[55]=69
intra_q[56]=34
intra_q[57]=37
intra_q[58]=38
intra_q[59]=40
intra_q[60]=48
intra_q[61]=58
intra_q[62]=69
intra_q[63]=79
user_niquant=1
inter_q[0]=16
inter_q[1]=18
inter_q[2]=20
inter_q[3]=22
inter_q[4]=24
inter_q[5]=26
inter_q[6]=28
inter_q[7]=30
inter_q[8]=18
inter_q[9]=20
inter_q[10]=22
inter_q[11]=24
inter_q[12]=26
inter_q[13]=28
inter_q[14]=30
inter_q[15]=32
inter_q[16]=20
inter_q[17]=22
inter_q[18]=24
inter_q[19]=26
inter_q[20]=28
inter_q[21]=30
inter_q[22]=32
inter_q[23]=34
inter_q[24]=22
inter_q[25]=24
inter_q[26]=26
inter_q[27]=30
inter_q[28]=32
inter_q[29]=32
inter_q[30]=34
inter_q[31]=36
inter_q[32]=24
inter_q[33]=26
inter_q[34]=28
inter_q[35]=32
inter_q[36]=34
inter_q[37]=34
inter_q[38]=36
inter_q[39]=38
inter_q[40]=26
inter_q[41]=28
inter_q[42]=30
inter_q[43]=32
inter_q[44]=34
inter_q[45]=36
inter_q[46]=38
inter_q[47]=40
inter_q[48]=28
inter_q[49]=30
inter_q[50]=32
inter_q[51]=34
inter_q[52]=36
inter_q[53]=38
inter_q[54]=42
inter_q[55]=42
inter_q[56]=30
inter_q[57]=32
inter_q[58]=34
inter_q[59]=36
inter_q[60]=38
inter_q[61]=40
inter_q[62]=42
inter_q[63]=44
Now once you have sucessfully got all you parameters configured you then can save your settings under the Options menu by "Save settings as a Profile". This will basically create a "Kwag" like template. Be advised that you basically only have to change a few things to make it MPEG-1 for non-standard VCD's. For this format the quality in my opinion is good, but not as good as all the work that has been done by everyone here for TMPGEnc. I also think that the quality is marginally better for MPEG-2, but the trade off in speed and ease of encoding makes it more worthwhile.

Do a sampler encode in both modes and see for yourself.
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  #8  
03-11-2003, 05:19 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi Racer99,

I'm currently trying it out, and I also had to do a VFAPIConvert from my .avs. It bombed every time I tried to load an .avs, even with the resampleaudio line added to the script
I wish it could read it directly, because reading the pseudo-avi file is way slower I'm testing in VBR mode with average bit rate value read from MovieStacker.
Just a 352x240 encode to see final quality and file size. I haven't patched the matrix yet.

-kwag
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  #9  
03-11-2003, 05:35 PM
Racer99 Racer99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Hi Racer99,

I'm currently trying it out, and I also had to do a VFAPIConvert from my .avs. It bombed every time I tried to load an .avs, even with the resampleaudio line added to the script
I wish it could read it directly, because reading the pseudo-avi file is way slower I'm testing in VBR mode with average bit rate value read from MovieStacker.
Just a 352x240 encode to see final quality and file size. I haven't patched the matrix yet.

-kwag
The pseudo avi file stinks I admit.

Most of my encodes are 720x480 or 704x480 (Full DVD D-1). I'm getting on average 3-4 hour encode times vs. 7-9 for Tmpgenc. I just wish they would work on SPEED!!!.

Racer99
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  #10  
03-11-2003, 05:38 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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We have to call Mr. Hori in Japan so he re-writes VFAPIConverter

Edit: Have you tried to open the .avs with Vdub, and frameserve to the encoder

-kwag
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  #11  
03-11-2003, 05:46 PM
Racer99 Racer99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
We have to call Mr. Hori in Japan so he re-writes VFAPIConverter

Edit: Have you tried to open the .avs with Vdub, and frameserve to the encoder

-kwag
Not successfully, but then I've never been very successful in doing in TMPGEnc either. I must be doing something wrong. I have read the suggestions and posts but still have been unable to get it to function properly. I'll try some more tonight when I get home from work in an hour.

Racer99
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  #12  
03-11-2003, 11:05 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Here's the veredict on MainConcept MPEG Encoder.
The quality produced at 352x240 is almost the same as TMPEG. Maybe just a little more flying artifacts around objects, but very hard to tell. Now at 528x480, it's a complete different story I started to encode the same movie I did at 352x240 ("S1M0NE") using the same average bit rate (891) as suggested by MovieStacket, but of course changing the MAX to 2,500 and MIN to 300. The result: Disaster
On low action scenes, it looks very good. Whenever there's some high speed action, it's just massive blocks everywhere So the bit rate just doesn't cover the bandwidth required for the demand. Just like TMPEG in MVBR mode and fixing an average bit rate on the "Force picture type" screen. So for 352x240, it's fine. Anything else, TMPEG just blows it away in CQ mode. Simple as that.
I forgot to mention that I tried with the default MainConcept Q. Matrix and also KVCD's "Notch" matrix. The results were basically the same.

My $0.02 cents
-kwag
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  #13  
03-13-2003, 04:54 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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I just finished doing a couple of tests, and this encoder in MPEG-2 apparently is something completely different than in MPEG-1 mode

I'm currently frameserving this script with VirtualDub:

Code:
#==============================================#
# -= AviSynth script by MovieStacker v1.1.1 =- #
#==============================================#

LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\MPEG2Dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\NoMoSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\Convolution3D.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\GripFit_preview.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\DustV5.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\LegalClip.dll")

Mpeg2Source("K:\S1M0NE_WS\VIDEO_TS\simone.d2v")
LegalClip()
GripCrop(528, 480, overscan=2)
GripSize(resizer="BilinearResize")
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40, 1, 6, 1, 3)
Convolution3D(preset="movieHQ")
GripBorders()
LegalClip()
And MediaConcept is processing it perfectly
I'll report here when the encode is done. Estimated time is ~5 hours.

-kwag
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03-14-2003, 09:59 AM
jamesp jamesp is offline
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Kwag,

How did it look?

Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
I just finished doing a couple of tests, and this encoder in MPEG-2 apparently is something completely different than in MPEG-1 mode

I'm currently frameserving this script with VirtualDub:

Code:
#==============================================#
# -= AviSynth script by MovieStacker v1.1.1 =- #
#==============================================#

LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\MPEG2Dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\NoMoSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\Convolution3D.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\GripFit_preview.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\DustV5.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\MovieStacker\MovieStacker\Filters\LegalClip.dll")

Mpeg2Source("K:\S1M0NE_WS\VIDEO_TS\simone.d2v")
LegalClip()
GripCrop(528, 480, overscan=2)
GripSize(resizer="BilinearResize")
SpaceDust()
NoMoSmooth(40, 1, 6, 1, 3)
Convolution3D(preset="movieHQ")
GripBorders()
LegalClip()
And MediaConcept is processing it perfectly
I'll report here when the encode is done. Estimated time is ~5 hours.

-kwag
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  #15  
03-14-2003, 10:51 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp
Kwag,

How did it look?

Jim
Hi Jim,

It looks very good, except on high motion
The final file size was almost on target. ~19MB smaller.
I guess that for high bit rates, for DVD targets, this encoder is priceless It IS better that Cinemacraft, in the limited tests I did yesterday. I encoded this: http://www.tecoltd.com/enctest/enctest.htm by downloading the ~80MB avi and the produced sample I encoded with MediaConcept encoder looks better than CCEs sample . Specially the scene when the girl is in the water. I also encoded the same clip with TMPEG, and the result on CCE looks slightly better than TMPEGs, I have to say that! But only on that scene where there are many small particles (water). But the MediaConcept encoder looks FAR better than both TMPEG or CCE. It's a shame that it doesn't work very good at low average bit rates The samples I encoded were using an average bit rate of ~5,000Kbps.
We must keep an eye on future versions of this encoder
Hopefully MediaConcept will read these posts and fine tune their encoder on the weak areas. The encoder also has a CQ mode like TMPEG, and it works when you set the MIN bit rate to 0. Then you can choose the quality value to encode in a similar way as we do with TMPEG. The only problem I see is that in TMPEG we have a range of 0 to 100, but in MediaConcept is only about 1 to 31 and no decimal values allowed, so the scaling wouldn't work very accurate with file prediction because of the large increment steps. We'll keep playing with it

And that's it
-kwag
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03-16-2003, 03:21 AM
Holomatrix Holomatrix is offline
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So for us that do not encode to DVD yet TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?
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03-16-2003, 07:07 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holomatrix
So for us that do not encode to DVD yet TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?
Yes it is, and it's called MPEG-1
Seriously, the difference is SO small in MPEG-2 between CCE, MCE and TMPEG, that TMPEG is still the winner because it provides many tools that no other encoder does. TMPEG is the "Swiss Army Knife" of the encoders
And for low bit rates and MPEG-1, TMPEG just wipes them all out

-kwag
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  #18  
03-16-2003, 08:13 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holomatrix
So for us that do not encode to DVD yet TMPEG is still the way to go? MPEG1 or MPEG2?
Yes it is, and it's called MPEG-1
Seriously, the difference is SO small in MPEG-2 between CCE, MCE and TMPEG, that TMPEG is still the winner because it provides many tools that no other encoder does. TMPEG is the "Swiss Army Knife" of the encoders
And for low bit rates and MPEG-1, TMPEG just wipes them all out

-kwag
i'm with you again Kwag,

i test all encoders many times to compare and TMPGenc is super because it provides many tools that no other encoder does.
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03-16-2003, 01:05 PM
Holomatrix Holomatrix is offline
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OK, but I thought mpeg 1 doesn't do chapters ? what does mpeg 2 have over mpeg 1? and when you say low bitrate do you mean under 2500? use mpeg 2 for 2500 and up?
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03-16-2003, 01:14 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holomatrix
OK, but I thought mpeg 1 doesn't do chapters ?
Sure it does . All my MPEG-1 KVCDs have chapters You use ChapterXtractor to retrieve the chapters from your .IFO, and pasted them on VCDEasy. The result: The original DVD chapters on your KVCDs
Quote:
what does mpeg 2 have over mpeg 1?
Basically interlaced video and scalability above ~2.5Mbps. Other than that, slightly less video quality and stability than MPEG-1 at ~0-2.5Mbps. More protocol overhead, so decoders have to work harder.
Quote:
and when you say low bitrate do you mean under 2500? use mpeg 2 for 2500 and up?
That is correct

-kwag
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