Quantcast Trying to Backup my New PAL Version DVD - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
06-10-2003, 01:56 PM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Hi everybody...

I'm currently trying to backup my new PAL version DVD of "Event Horizon", and have come across a few problems. I noticed that on the final encode some scenes just seem to be "Artifact Infected". There are suddenly ugly blocks and strange artifacts. I looked at the movie with Virtual Dub, and found something VERY interesting, for 2 reasons...

The following screenshot is not filtered by any kind, and part of this DVD !!!


Ok, what we see is a VERY ugly blocky, greenish picture with INTERLACE LINES... Now I only own PAL movies, so I really haven't come across an interlaced source yet.
Now here comes the frame, that is right before the one you just saw:



How do I deal with that? Not only that the picture looks a lot better (far from a clean DVD I know), but also the Interlace Lines are gone...
Can anyone help please?
[/IMG]
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  #2  
06-10-2003, 02:10 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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That definitely looks like only one field is displayed

Edit: I assume this is in Vdub via a clean .avs (unfiltered) reading a .d2v
If that's the case, could you open the VOB directly with Virtualdub-MPEG-2 and see if that frame looks the same

-kwag
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  #3  
06-10-2003, 02:36 PM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
That definitely looks like only one field is displayed

Edit: I assume this is in Vdub via a clean .avs (unfiltered) reading a .d2v
If that's the case, could you open the VOB directly with Virtualdub-MPEG-2 and see if that frame looks the same

-kwag
You're right, those screenshots were taken with VDub opening a clean AVS.
Don't get me wrong, it's not only that one little frame, but every other frame seems to be interlaced, although, those bad artifacts are not visible. It even seems to me that only some parts of several frames seem to be interlaced, while others are not...

Ok, I checked the same frame with VDub MPEG2, and yes, it looks the same! Blocky, ugly, interlaced.
And there are other frames that look like that one too...
Any ideas?
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06-10-2003, 03:14 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Maybe Telecide() would do some good?
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06-10-2003, 03:15 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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hy friend,

don't know if my monitor is showing the exact image
problem that i see but i try to explain.

it don't seems interlaced problems, seems color problems...
in pal systems, the red change between 180 to -180 degree.
one line with 180 and another invert from -180 to 180 again,
seems that one of this lines is lost...
(for this reason is called "pal"..phase alternating line..or some like this)
dah.

i see that every line loss one of the two phases of red colors.
see that the image don't have "broken lines",
the red color is too green and the blue color seems purple.
every color loose some red in the recombination.
you can see that the color is strange, not the image(luminance)



use tweak in the script, remove the saturation and
open in vdub...if the black&white (without color) image is correct,
the problem can be in the phases or in dvd, if don't is interlaced.

did you understand my horrible english Jellygoose
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06-10-2003, 03:24 PM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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@Boulder:
I already tried Telecide(), and the results were strange. Some frames seemed to be just fine, while others looked very soft.

@jorel:
Very interesting. Can you post the commands for Tweak? I'd like to check it out!
However, I'm sure that the porblem is within the DVD.

BtW: I understood everything, you meant to say Jorel, no need to apologize for anything!
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06-10-2003, 03:34 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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tweak is built in the avisynth252


from tweak read me:

Tweak Syntax
Tweak uses named parameters. That means you do not have to worry about the ordering of parameters and can simply refer to them by name and put them in any order in the list of parameters. If you omit a parameter it takes its default value. For example, if you want to increase the saturation of a clip and reduce its brightness, you might simply say:
Tweak(sat=2.0,bright=-20)

Any combination and order of named parameters is allowed. Specifying Tweak() with no parameters is a null operation and is thus senseless.

Following is the syntax for Tweak (replace parameter_list with your comma-separated list of named parameters):

Tweak(parameter_list)

hue (-180.0 to +180.0, default 0.0) is used to adjust the color hue of the image. Positive values shift the image towards red. Negative values shift it towards green.

sat (0.0 to 10.0, default 1.0) is used to adjust the color saturation of the image. Values above 1.0 increase the saturation. Values below 1.0 reduce the saturation. Use sat=0 to convert to grayscale.

bright (-255.0 to 255.0, default 0.0) is used to change the brightness of the image. Positive values increase the brightness. Negative values decrease it.

cont (0.0 to 10.0, default 1.0) is used to change the contrast of the image. Values above 1.0 increase the contrast. Values below 1.0 decrease the contrast.



ps:
yes,seems that the problem is in dvd !
(when trancodification from ntsc to pal was made)
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  #8  
06-10-2003, 03:50 PM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Ok thanks again Jorel...

I tried it out, but the vertical lines were also visible in greyscale...
I guess it's really an Interlacing Problem...
Is it some kind of Hybrid source? (part interlaced/part progressive)
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06-10-2003, 04:01 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi Jellygoose,

If it's a hybrid source, try this:

Telecide()
Decimate(mode=1,threshold=50)


-kwag
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  #10  
06-10-2003, 06:03 PM
sh0dan sh0dan is offline
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Looks like "broken chroma upsampling".

Use ConverttoYUY2(interlaced=true), to have the chroma converted as it should. Search for "chroma upsampling" at doom9 if you need more info.
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06-10-2003, 06:55 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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Hi Jellybelly..

I just did a quick rip of some chptrs.. as it turns out, chapter 5 had that
scene you were describing.

I verified the above scene and found no Interlace. I used my NTSC DVD
disk version. I counldn't find any artifacts.

However, this Movie is similar to "Red Planet"'s quaity in those dark scenes..
poor, poor blocky. Should I say, Hatchy. Anyways.. These type movies
have to handled w/ gentle care when archiving them to CDR. The encoding
of such can be trechereous!! But, these movies are not recommended for
script debugging, because of the poor quality. They will only confuse you
more. Anyways..

Are you sure that the movie is Interlaced every other frame, cause this
makes me wonder about the chroma that Sh0dan mentioned. That
would mean that they F** this movie really bad So, have you gone
through more than just Chapter 5 ?? Like, some of the more easier
less action scenes ??

The opening theme music is awsome though!! Should have ben used in
"Planet of the Ape's" ..don't you think ? And, I also prefer to watch that
movie during daylight cause I scare easy watching those at
night .. .. bri.bri.bri.bri zzzzzzz. But, it's a great Movie !! They should do
a sequel soon. And, I'll be it's in the writing. Hope Fishborn doesn't turn it
down.

-vhelp
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  #12  
06-11-2003, 12:39 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhelp
I verified the above scene and found no Interlace. I used my NTSC DVD
disk version. I counldn't find any artifacts.
Another case of a real bad NTSC->PAL transfer then

Hakko's IVTC tutorial could be useful in such cases:

http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

It's just that sometimes you don't get good results no matter what you do, hence "the good, the bad and the ugly" mentioned in the guide.
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06-11-2003, 02:52 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Thanks for all your help with this...
Here's another screenie, it seems like this only occurs during High Action scenes.



@kwag: I tried your approach, but the whole image seems to be VERY soft now... and it takes a long time to do this...

@shOdan:
sounds pretty interesting. But when I use ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true), wouldn't that mess up all the frames that look ok?
And would I put that line at the very beginning, because I figure the filters won't work in YUY2...
As I mentioned before, this only happens during high action scenes.
I can see clearly that around people there are artifacts due to ghosting in the source. It seems that for example when an object is moving to the right rapidly, there are thin horizontal lines still left of the object...

@vhelp:
it is a great movie, but it really gets me that the PAL version is that BAD! On slow scenes, everything looks just fine, but whenever there's action (not only in that scene), every other frame looks like that...

@Boulder:
thanks for the link... I read the guide, but I'm not sure whether this movie belongs to "the ugly", because most of the frames in the movie are ok... so hard to deal with this...
And yes, it seems to be a real bad transfer unfortunately...
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06-11-2003, 03:37 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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This might also be of some interest:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38351

And regarding conversion to YUY2, most filters do work with both YV12 and YUY2 so give it a shot.
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  #15  
06-11-2003, 06:26 AM
sh0dan sh0dan is offline
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The frames you are posting are clearly interlaced, with horizontal lines.

Therefore they will have bad chroma upsampling, when you PREVIEW it in vdub.
This is however NOT caused by Avisynth - and the video is actually CORRECT. This might sound strange, but the error occurs, when vdub must display YV12 in the preview window.

Vdub (or actually the codec decompressing the frames) assumes that the YV12 is non-interlaced - therefore chroma is upsampled wrongly, when the video is converted for preview.

Bad chroma upsampling happends, when YV12 is converted to another colorspace, and "interlaced" is not set properly.

So INSIDE AviSynth the YV12 material is ok - the preview is wrong. ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true) will make vdub display interlaced frames correctly.

Rules:
  • When converting to/from YV12 you MUST be sure the interlaced flag is set correctly, if your material is interlaced.
  • Interlaced YV12 is not displayed correctly in vdub. ConverttoYUY2 (or RGB) for proper _preview_).
  • Non-Interlaced material however isn't hurt as much by interlaced=true as vice versa. However correct setting still gives best quality.
  • Deinterlaced material should _not_ be treated as interlaced material.
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06-11-2003, 09:31 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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@Boulder: Thanks a lot for THAT link! added it to my bookmarks as a reference... very interesting!!

@shodan: I'm afraid, it doesn't work... I tried it on a clean AVS, and the horizontal lines are still present when I add this line right after the MPEG2Source line... Strange I know...
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  #17  
06-11-2003, 05:34 PM
vhelp vhelp is offline
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@ Jellygoose..

I was wondering..
Could you possibly send us (U/L) a 2 second .AVI of that clip ??
Use winRAR to compress to smallest size. And, don't do anything to the
source. Leave as is. This way, we all can sample it. I'm only trying ta
help you out. But, maybe others can sooner (w/ your sample) ??

Is this at all possible ??
If you need help, let me know. I'll be there

Thanks jell.. be good.
-vhelp
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  #18  
06-12-2003, 03:30 AM
sh0dan sh0dan is offline
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@ Jellygoose: The interlacing lines will not go away - you need to either do IVTC (using telecide) or Fielddeinterlace. The only thing you get is proper color conversion.

You may need to tweak the telecide options.
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  #19  
06-12-2003, 04:55 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Thanks for your patience all of you!

@shodan: sure, I should have read more before I ask stupid questions like this! Thanks a lot. What I'm currently trying is this line:

Telecide(guide=2,post=true, blend=false)

This takes away the interlace lines pretty good. would you recommend converting into YUY2 with interlaced true before this Telecide line?

@vhelp: Ok, I'll definetely do that later today. So I produce this sample clip with VDub right? I've never done this before... Would I use HuffyYuv codec for this?
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  #20  
06-12-2003, 05:28 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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No need to convert to YUY2! The thing you're experiencing is VDub's problem, when you encode the movie, the colorspace doesn't need to be converted.

To make a sample clip, make a simple AVS script just to load the d2v file, load it in VDub, use HuffYUV compression and save a small, totally unprocessed AVI.
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