KVCD new beta template - user experiences, tweaks and hacks?
 

I posted this on another topic, but it should go here. Please write your experiences and comments regarding the new templates.

"The Matrix" done with the 704x480 beta template.
The complete 136 minute movie. The video stream size is 1,302,091KB + 224,000KB audio stream. So that muxes perfectly with room to spare in two 80 minute CD's. So the 704x480 should fit just about any 120 minute ( wide screen + IVTC ) in 2 CD.s Quality? well, you decide :lol:
Sample here: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-704x480.mpg ( soundless )

kwag

hmm
 

I did Cheech and Chong's Still Smokin' at the default 704-480 and it came in at about 1.03 gigs with sound...

BTW kwag thanks for refering me to headAC3HE... wicked sound

tks


Oh the movie was about 93 mins long

Proof of Life
 

I was encoding "Proof of Life", and had to stop the encode, because of low memory in the machine I was using. The movie had encoded 45% and the file size was 597,764KB ( video stream ) with the 704x480 template.
So I guess this will fit perfectly in 2 CD's. I'll start the encode again later.

kwag

As I mentioned in the other thread, DivX movies tend to become quite large with the new template (which is understandable, since blocks in the DivX source won't encode nicely). However, my question relates to how much you can alter the CQ value before getting huge quality dropoffs. With the old templates, for example, anything below about CQ 50 would have a VERY sharp quality dropoff. Since the CQ is so low already in the new templates, can they go down much to get better size? My thinking is that since DivX is a noisy/blocky source to begin with, cutting back on the CQ won't degrade quality _too_ much since the quality isn't there to begin with ;) But if there is a sharp dropoff point, I'd prefer to stay above it. (Focused mainly on the 353x480 templates).

Encoding guidelines for lower file size with new templates.
 

@Daagar and All:

The best way is to encode some small 15 second samples. Note the file size. Then just start lowering the quality value and encode small clips until you don't like the quality anymore. The new templates are optimized for the best possible quality while maintaining the lowest possible file size. But you can go way lower, without any quality difference, viewed in a regular TV. When I say regular, I mean not HDTV's. You could drop the quality value until your file size is about 25% to 35% smaller than with the default values, and even on a large 38" CRT television, you won't be able to tell the difference. On a HDTV, you will!

As an example, we have an old ( 4 years ) 60" rear screen projection TV, and the 704x480 look about the same as the 352x480. Because it's not high definition. Even the 352x240 looks great. So you can easily drop your quality to a file size around 30% smaller, and still enjoy an excelent picture.

Here are some numbers to be used as guidelines, so try them out. They should give you no visual difference in a regular TV than with the default values set in the new templates.

For the 704x480, change the quality value from 15 to 7.5. This will drop the total file size between 25% to 30%.
For the 352x480, change the quality value from 20 to 10. This will drop the total file size between 30% to 35%.
And for the 352x240, dont touch it!. It's not worth lowering the quality, because it should already fit almost every 120 minute movie as it is.

I hope these numbers work for you, as they have worked for me.

kwag

New Template tried in PAL 352x288
 

I've changed the framerate to 25fps and the size to 352x288 from the 352x240 NTSC template (352x288 has the best compatibility between me and some of my friends).

I also changed the Aspect ratio to 16:9 (I've always done that with the old templates too, because I want to use as many lines as possible to somewhat compensate for the small size).

I've tried two movies, and both of them had almost optimal sizes after 1 try:

American Pie ( 91'47 ) : 786 Mb
She's All That: ( 91'38 ) : 788 Mb
(I've always kept liking teen movies... 8))

I'd just done American Pie with the old template, and the quality of the new template was definitely a lot better.

I hope to try a more chalenging movie soon, to see what CQ-VBR rate I would need for longer or more active movies.

Hopefully some other PAL-viewers can do something with this info.

Hi KWag !!!! :)

Wonderful work on the new temp, the quality is pretty amazing, 8O

Just for make sure, check this out :

I´ve encoded rush hour with the new template( 352X240 )as it is.
98 mins of movie - filesize about 685 megs...

Is that correct, i mean, is acceptable the filesize-movie lenght aspects.

Just to have a notion, cos i have no much knowledge about the VBR CQ :oops:

Thanks :wink:

Pacodoni 8)

HI Pacodoni:

Yeah, that should be about right. Figure around 200MB average per every half hour on action movies for the 352x240 template. So you're in range. And that's a pretty active movie 8O so you got a great size.

Any macro blocks showing with the new Q. Matrix ?? 8)

kwag

New Templates
 

Kwag,

Just completed and old classics from original DVD rip, Dirty Harry, 103 Min, I lowered the 352x480 CQ_VRB to 10 just to see what it would look like, the file size was 517,022. Played back on my Panasonic E20, Pioneer DV 343, Panasonic LV55, GREAT!. Now I will up it to 15 to see how that plays out. Another great job Kwag. Will post later

Aloha
Bud

This posting was retracted by the author.

Question about muxing:

(1)---When muxing video and audio streams with bbmpeg, where is the option to set the range if it is to be put onto 2 CDs, or it should be muxed the streams in a whole and use Tmpeg to cut into 2 mpeg files?

When you run BBmpeg, go to the "Start encoding/Settings/General Settings", and you'll see at the bottom "Multiplexing/start/stop/size options:" There you enter Start seconds, End seconds and max size in MB.

kwag

Proof of Life
 

Here's the result. CD#1=793,579KB and CD#2=769,290KB with the beta 704x480 template. Audio encoded at 224Khz Dolby Surround :lol:
Movie running time is 135 minutes and 33 seconds.
kwag

I retract my earlier statement about the new templates causing heavy mosquito effect. I redid my clip with the orig. KVCD template, and saw the same artifacts - thus the source simply isn't as clean as it appears to be and it is hard to encode. In fact, because the quality of the new method is so much higher, it may be slightly exaggerating the faults.

Sidenote: Has anyone requested support for CQ_VBR mode in DVD2SVCD? It would pretty much automate the whole process for everyone.

Great, so i will try another movies using the beta...

About the macro, i get only a little bit on the start of the movie, but let´s see all the problems on this scene...

1) Night scene
2) Steam on the dock where the movie was made
3) Use 1+2 and put in an high action ( of course, if it is jackie chan :lol: ) scene.

But, i made a test with this an the old template, and the old got much more macros, so, thats the right way...

Thanks again Kwag :wink:

Pacodoni 8)

Kwag,
I'm going to be encoding the same movie today. Did you use FitCd on this one? I read in another post from you that said you just use DVD2AVI, then Tmpgenc the video only and remux with bbmpeg after using Headac3ech on the audio. Also can you explain the difference in quality on the HDTV. Is that why you are using 704x480?

Re: KVCD new beta template users experiences, tweaks and hac
 

kwag,
you say that you use IVTC in your encodes. I have been trying to do this for awhile but I cannot get it to work. I finally found that If I encode with MPEG-2 and a 23.976 fps source, check 3:2 pulldown when playback and encode. It works perfectly. For IVTC, does the source have to be 23 fps or 29? It wopuld be great if we could get a good guide to help us do this becuase some movies are a b*tch to encode. Thanks kwag. GREAT WORK!

A-Star

I did "the Mothman Prophecies" (119 min)- 911.433 mb
"a beautiful mind" (136 min) 1.224 gb <- both minus the sound

These templates are by far the best yet- I did not see any blocks or artifacts at all in either movie. With the kvcdx2-1cd temp I occasionally see blocks in dark scenes on my 27" tv.

Great job Kwag!

@Star, source must be 29.97fps FILM to inverse telecine (IVTC)

rendalunit!
I'm not getting any where close to those file sizes. did you use the 704x480 template or the 352x480.

@kwag
Tryed to encode "Proof of Life" at 704x480 and the video alone came to 1.6 gb. I'm just putting the .d2v file in and using the beta 704x480 template with cq15. Any ideas?

hi Yoda,

I used the 704x480 beta template. The file sizes are without sound-> mp2 added another 2-3 hundred mb. ARe your file sizes much larger or smaller than the 800mb-1.2gb ballpark?

@yoda,

I take it from the size of your "proof of life" video file that your encode file sizes are too big--that's widescreen too!!

I'm using avisynth- here's my avs for Mothman-

LoadPlugin("C:\ENCODING\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\ENCODING\Decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\DVD_VIDEO\VIDEO_TS\the_mothman_pro phecies.d2v")
Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5)
BilinearResize(704,352,0,0,720,480)
TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(0,64,0,64)

I'm IVTC'ing with avisynth just for the hell of it, also I'm not sure but I think that 'AddBorders' line cuts down the file size drastically-

Rendalunit,
how do you go about IVTC'ing with avisynth. Also, do you use fitcd to get your avs?

Thanks,
A-Star

hi A-Star,

first you need to download the decomb.dll plugin, you can download it from here:http://www.doom9.org/decomb.htm and read the guide there too. I use FitCD to write the basic avs script- but I usually have to modify it a little- like removing the '#' before TemporalSmoother.

Yes I used FitCD. Here's the .avs script:

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("K:\PROOF_OF_LIFE\VIDEO_TS\proof-dvd2avi-176.d2v")
BilinearResize(704,352,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(0,64,0,64)

The audio is encoded separately from AC3 to mp2 with headAC3he, to include dolby surround and far better audio quality than with the internal TMPEG audio encoder. Then the audio stream is muxed with the video stream with BBmpeg. I saw the movie last night, and it looks like the original DVD in my HDTV :lol:

-kwag

Re: KVCD new beta template users experiences, tweaks and hac
 

If your source is your DVD, and it's FILM ( shot at 24fps ), you don't have to do IVTC. Just turn on "Force FILM" when you create your DVD2AVI project file. I only do IVTC with my captures, which the source is usually FILM, so I use an AviSynth script to do the IVTC. Info here: http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtcsynth.shtml

kwag

Run it through AviSynth with the script posted. My total file size was 1,562,869KB with audio at 224Khz.

-kwag

Re: KVCD new beta template users experiences, tweaks and hac
 

Thank you sdo much kwag,
that is a good thing to know. Now i just dont have any idea why my movie isnt working. The only way I can get a (wll at least this certain one, american pie 2) movie to work is selct forced fim in dvd2avi, and then in tpmgenc I have to encode with mpeg-2 to have 3:2 pulldown when playback selected. This happened with both of the templates. Is there a solution to this problem so that I can encode with MPEG-1?

Thanks
A-Star

What's the reason why you removed the "#" before the temporal smoother? I've just started using FitCD, do I remove it or leave it there?

Use temporal smoother only if your source is not very clean. Even some DVD's are dirty. Specially older ones. So those little spots you see in your original movie, become visible macroblocks on your encodes.

-kwag

Then do you mean if you want to use the temporal smoother, delete the # before it? And if you don't want to use, leave the # alone?

That's right. Every line that starts with a # is a comment.

-kwag

Timberwolf,

Yes, to use temporal smoother, remove the # from the script. If you don't want to use it, just leave the the # in the script.

Okie dokie. Thanks people!

lol. So that's why I keep getting the same filesize whether I'm using with or without the avisynth script. :oops:

hy kwag,

i send you greetings from germany!!
very great forum and your new "beta"-template works very fine, and I think, it´s more better than the the "old" one!! :lol:
now it´s possible for me, to fit nearly 110 min on one CDR!!
(352 x 576, 128 kbit sound, pioneer 444)
I will post your you webpage on the german forum www.dvdboard.de !!!

have a nice day!!

greets from germany
crisou

Thanks crisou!
Let me know how the people at the dvdboard forum like the results too :D

-kwag

ok kwag,

now one very important result from the german PAL-KVCD-template-user:
I belive, there is a very import point between the PAL and the NTSC-template: PAL works with 25 fps and 352 x 576, NTSC with 352 x 480 at 24 fps! the result is, that PAL-template-user can fit 15 % less on one CDR. in best case 100 min! for many movies not enough!
so the best way is, to use more and more MPEG2 for encoding, because MPEG1 get "old" and many stand-alone-players in germany doesn´t work
with the KVCD-templates.
but last not least, I like the your templates, and my movies works very fine on pioneer 444 and DUAL 4500 MP.
That was a little feedback from germay, and you have many fans there!! :lol:

greets
chris

Size of final output (video stream only) and minimum bitrate
 

Kwag,
First of all, my "Shinsonic DVD-160" finally plays KVCD (704x480) at 23.97 without changing the setting of the NEW beta template except the minimum bitrate of video. I have to increase it from 300 to 500, otherwise, video is jerky (occasionally, through out the movie). Can you give me a rough idea as to how the final output size (video stream only) will be increased by increasing the minimum bitrate (say by each 100)?



I have deeply fallen in love with your NEW beta template. By the way, what motivates you to keep braking your own record? Thank you!!!!!!

Re: Size of final output (video stream only) and minimum bit
 

You're going to have to do some test clips to find out the effect in file size. I suggest you do many one minute clips of a low action scene, that's where the low MIN bitrate will have the highest impact, and measure the file sizes for each run. To answer your question "what motivates me to keep breaking my own record?" To make many people happy ( and piss a lot of other people :lol: ) No, really, I have met my goal. To create a video of an average of 70 minutes per 80 minute CD at 704x480 with a quality very close to a DVD. I think that's done now with the beta 704x480 template. This should fit just about any wide screen movie in two CD's. I myself, after seeing the results, dont think I'll go back to anything less. The quality of the 704x480 supercedes an SVCD in both quality and file size. An equivalent movie would take between 3 to 4 CD's in SVCD format, and even though the quality of an SVCD is very good, it leaves much to say besides the KVCD 704x480. Maybe I'll play some more with the 352x480, to try and optimize the file size/quality, and fit longer time with that template. But like you said that you've fallen in love with the new format, I'm rolling and tumbling on the floor :lol: with the 704x480's quality, and laughing at some of my friends that when they come home and see what we're watching, now they say " Oh, now you're not watching VCD's. Because that's a DVD, right" :lol: . I've done 3 movies in the last 4 days, and also my daughter, which has an eagles eye, now says " Oh that's a DVD right?". Before she would sneak behind me and say "I SEE BLOCKS", Damn, that pissed me off every time :lol: , because that meant that "It wasn't good enough". Not any more 8)

-kwag

Kwag,
in an earlier post, you said that it was possible to lower the qulity to 7.5 in the 704x480 template nd see no visual quality difference on a regular TV. I would like to say that on my 32 inch Toshiba television, I can tell the difference. I believe it is due to the fact that when you lower the qulity, there are more blocks and that I what I am seeing. But u know, your daughter is quite correct. These do look like origonal DVD's. It is amazing. Would it be possible to encode at 720x480? What would be the problem with that?

a_star62, the problem with 720x480 is compatibility playback in many DVD players, when playing MPEG-1. You can try it, but there will be no difference in quality. It's only 16 additional lines of resolution.

-kwag