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-   -   Bitrates: Cqmatic for smartphone encoding? (http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/encode/6965-bitrates-cqmatic-smartphone.html)

magnus 12-03-2003 02:20 AM

Cqmatic for smartphone encoding?
 
Kwag,
I was wondering if there was any way I could set up cqmatic to calculate the cq for certain size memory cards. Using the custom settings in calcumatic I can get the bitrates, but that is as far as I can get. I tried cqmatic for the hell of it but I get a "invalid resolution" error since I'm using 224x176. Any ideas how I can get this jewel to do the job?

Thanks
Magnus

kwag 12-03-2003 05:30 AM

Hi magnus,

Get me the smartphone available resolutions, and I'll modify CQMatic to include them :!:
Is 224x176 the only one used :?:

-kwag

magnus 12-03-2003 01:37 PM

Kwag,

You are the man! I have seen just a few resolutions listed: 224x176, 240x176, 176x136, & 220x176. There may be more but this is all I know of. Will I need to do anything differently in cqmatic from what I am used to with my other encodings? Thanks again for your help and thanks for all the great work you put into this site! Just think, I remember when you presented the idea of kvcd to the conversion community (vcdhelp etc.) and many said it was impossible. Hah!! Job well done!

Magnus

kwag 12-03-2003 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnus
Kwag,

You are the man! I have seen just a few resolutions listed: 224x176, 240x176, 176x136, & 220x176.

Thanks magnus :)
After a little research, I've found that the four standard resolutions used on smartphones, are:

160x120
176x220
208x240
240x320

Sadly, 176x220 can't be used with TMPEG, because 220 can't be evenly divided by 8. So TMPEG will bomb with an error if you try that resolution.
So I just included the three other resolutions, except 176x20.
Quote:

There may be more but this is all I know of. Will I need to do anything differently in cqmatic from what I am used to with my other encodings?
Yes. Download the new version 1.05 :mrgreen:
http://www.kvcd.net/CQMatic-1.2.05.exe
Quote:

Thanks again for your help and thanks for all the great work you put into this site! Just think, I remember when you presented the idea of kvcd to the conversion community (vcdhelp etc.) and many said it was impossible. Hah!! Job well done!
I'll never forget that. And as they say: "The last laugh is the best laugh" :mrgreen:

Let me know how the new version works. Remember, you are encoding at small resolutions, so you should use CQ_VBR instead of CQ :!:

-kwag

magnus 12-04-2003 12:20 AM

Kwag,

I hate to ask but could you please add 224x176. I have tried it and it works perfectly on my phone. Also, I plan on using your template you created a while back. Do you still feel it is the best settings, gop etc. for smartphone encoding?

Thanks again
Magnus

kwag 12-04-2003 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnus
Kwag,

I hate to ask but could you please add 224x176.

Grab it ;)
http://www.kvcd.net/CQMatic-1.2.06.exe

Edit: BTW Magnus, remember to set your MIN bitrate to 0 and your MAX to ~300Kbps.
You shouldn't need anything higher, for such a small screen.

-kwag

mistermickster 12-04-2003 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Remember, you are encoding at small resolutions, so you should use CQ_VBR instead of CQ :!: -kwag

Kwag,

What would you class as a small resolution, as I've always used CQ so far. If CQ_VBR would give better results as lower res, I'd like to give it a try :)

Encoder Master 12-04-2003 06:50 AM

So little resolutions CQ_VBR is much better than CQ . Use it with resolutions at 352x288 and all values under this.

@kwag

In TMPGEnc out of standart SVCD Template I can use 240x576 as resoltion. Is this resolution also integrate?

kwag 12-04-2003 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Kwag,

What would you class as a small resolution, as I've always used CQ so far. If CQ_VBR would give better results as lower res, I'd like to give it a try :)

Anything at 352x240(288) or below, use CQ_VBR.

-kwag

kwag 12-04-2003 08:47 AM

I should have read your post Encoder Master, before I posted :roll: :lol:

-kwag

kwag 12-04-2003 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encoder Master
In TMPGEnc out of standart SVCD Template I can use 240x576 as resoltion. Is this resolution also integrate?

No, it's not. And that resolution (576) is too high for any current smartphone.

-kwag

mistermickster 12-04-2003 09:15 AM

Excuse the dumb question :oops:

What's a Smartphone :?:

kwag 12-04-2003 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Excuse the dumb question :oops:

What's a Smartphone :?:

A smart Telephone :)
Which usually integrates a PDA type screen and now they also have a small camera that let's you take a picture and send it over to another smartphone while you are talking. Plus many more features, depending on the manufacturer.
Have you seen the Verizon commercial of: "Can you hear me now?" :?:
Well, you'll soon be seeing new commercials like: "Can you SEE me now?" :lol: :hihi:

-kwag

mistermickster 12-04-2003 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Excuse the dumb question :oops:

What's a Smartphone :?:

A smart Telephone :)
Which usually integrates a PDA type screen and now they also have a small camera that let's you take a picture and send it over to another smartphone while you are talking. Plus many more features, depending on the manufacturer.
Have you seen the Verizon commercial of: "Can you hear me now?" :?:
Well, you'll soon be seeing new commercials like: "Can you SEE me now?" :lol: :hihi:

-kwag

I'm not from your neck of the woods, but we do have them over here :roll: . Just not heard them called Smartphones before.

Sorry to go off topic but, why is CQ_VBR better than CQ at low res. :?

kwag 12-04-2003 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Sorry to go off topic but, why is CQ_VBR better than CQ at low res. :?

The answer is WAY deep in this thread: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2073 with screenshots and full explanations ;)

-kwag

Encoder Master 12-04-2003 10:46 AM

Quote:

Encoder Master wrote:
In TMPGEnc out of standart SVCD Template I can use 240x576 as resoltion. Is this resolution also integrate?

No, it's not. And that resolution (576) is too high for any current smartphone.

-kwag
No I mean if it's integrate to encode the Movie in 240x576:
Perhaps some Player doesn't exept 352x576 and perhaps the Movie doesn't fit in htis resolution on a CD-R. So I have this questions if this resolution is integrate because it's also as an non-standart template in TMPGEnc. I don't mean smartphone.

kwag 12-04-2003 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encoder Master
So I have this questions if this resolution is integrate because it's also as an non-standart template in TMPGEnc. I don't mean smartphone.

No, it's not integrated, because even though TMPEG has a template for it, I have yet to see a standalone that can play that resolution :!:
The smallest (widest) resolution that I have seen supported on standalone players is 320x, but not 240.
Most players will display this as a "squeezed" video on the screen.

-kwag

magnus 12-04-2003 01:31 PM

Kwag

Greatly appreciated! Last question, should I leave the gop and other settings the same in the old template. I'm not sure if you created this template before the new matrix and gop settings.

Thanks
Magnus

Encoder Master 12-04-2003 01:53 PM

Quote:

No, it's not integrated, because even though TMPEG has a template for it, I have yet to see a standalone that can play that resolution
The smallest (widest) resolution that I have seen supported on standalone players is 320x, but not 240.
Most players will display this as a "squeezed" video on the screen.

-kwag
OK kwag your're right. I've tested it and it'S realy squeezed. :cry:
But it was a try. :wink:

kwag 12-04-2003 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnus
Kwag

Greatly appreciated! Last question, should I leave the gop and other settings the same in the old template. I'm not sure if you created this template before the new matrix and gop settings.

Thanks
Magnus

Frankly, because you're looking at a very small screen, I would increase the GOP to a sky high number like 64 8O :lol:
You might even want to decrease the frame rate by half, and don't forget to encode your audio at 64Kbps. :idea:
That will now fit just about any 2+ hour movie in a 128MB flash card :hihi:

-kwag

Encoder Master 12-04-2003 03:10 PM

@kwag



For me "1-77-0-1-0" gives the best compression and also good results.

Some questions by encoding at a very low resolution like 240x160:

Recommended CQ_VBR? Right, or?
Is it OK that I use a min Bitrate of 0 or should I use 1 and enable padding not to be lower than minimum bitrate?

Kwag you say 300kbps at Max; also with this resolution (240x160)?

Is it ok that I don't use b-Frames in GOP also with normal KVCD?

The Values of CQ_VBR is over 50 CQs lower than CQ is its right or better say OK?

magnus 12-04-2003 03:32 PM

Kwag

OK I lied about that being my last question. In your template you have the gop set to 1-18-3-1-48. What changes would you make? Just bump the 48 to 64 or what? You would possibly drop the framerate to 12fps? You also have all the "special settings" checked including soften block noise. Should I leave these the same.

Thanks
Magnus

Encoder Master 12-04-2003 03:46 PM

Quote:

gop set to 1-18-3-1-48
8O I can't believe that this is in the Templates or it's a good quality gop.

kwag 12-04-2003 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encoder Master
@kwag



For me "1-77-0-1-0" gives the best compression and also good results.

Some questions by encoding at a very low resolution like 240x160:

Recommended CQ_VBR? Right, or?

CQ_VBR
Quote:

Is it OK that I use a min Bitrate of 0 or should I use 1 and enable padding not to be lower than minimum bitrate?
Use 0, because you'll be playing in a software player. So no need to use a higher MIN value.
Quote:


Kwag you say 300kbps at Max; also with this resolution (240x160)?
I think 300 is the MAX I would use. Just to cover high action scenes.
Quote:


Is it ok that I don't use b-Frames in GOP also with normal KVCD?
NO :!:
Without B frames, you'll get less compression.
Quote:


The Values of CQ_VBR is over 50 CQs lower than CQ is its right or better say OK?
The CQ_VBR scale is lower than CQ. So you'll get very low values.

-kwag

kwag 12-04-2003 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magnus
Kwag

OK I lied about that being my last question. In your template you have the gop set to 1-18-3-1-48.

Those values were in the very old templates, right :lol:
Quote:

What changes would you make?
1-5823-2-1-72 ;)
Quote:

Just bump the 48 to 64 or what? You would possibly drop the framerate to 12fps?
Try it :!:
In such a small screen, you might just tolerate the small jerkiness, at the cost of smaller final file size ;)
Quote:

You also have all the "special settings" checked including soften block noise. Should I leave these the same.
NO :!:
Clear that. Remove the "Soften Blocks". It will actually make your encode more blocky.

Also, don't use overscan blocks for that encode, because there is no overscan on those Smartphone screens. Just like in a computer monitor. Only TV's have overscan ;)

Just for kicks, here's a clip at 160x120 (QQVGA resolution).
http://www.kvcd.net/smartphone-160x120.mpg
It's 38 seconds long, and only 431KB :lol:
Please, use Vdub to play it, so that it displays in actual size. That was encoded at a CQ_VBR value of 18.59 at a frame rate of 12fps, which yields a final size of ~80MB (full video encode, without audio) :mrgreen:
You'll probably need glasses to watch it on a smartphone screen, but at that size, it looks pretty damn good :lol:
MIN was 0 and MAX was 300Kbps and GOP of 1-5823-2-1-72.

-kwag

magnus 12-04-2003 06:03 PM

Kwag

Thanks for all the help! I think that covers it. I'll be be watching quality (yet tiny) movies on those boring flights on who would have thought it.... my phone.

Thanks
Magnus

Encoder Master 12-05-2003 10:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Is it ok that I don't use b-Frames in GOP also with normal KVCD?
NO
Without B frames, you'll get less compression.
That's not right kwag. I've tested a lot and if you choose a GOP like "1-77-0-1-0" Than you have the best compression with KVCD Notch Matrix. Eith only one B-frame my testfile of 10minutes will be 200kb greater.

mistermickster 12-05-2003 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Just for kicks, here's a clip at 160x120 (QQVGA resolution).
http://www.kvcd.net/smartphone-160x120.mpg
It's 38 seconds long, and only 431KB :lol:

That clip's quite dark, I'd be interested in seeing one a bit brighter :D

Oh yeh, and how about some sound :lol:

kwag 12-05-2003 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encoder Master
I've tested a lot and if you choose a GOP like "1-77-0-1-0" Than you have the best compression with KVCD Notch Matrix. Eith only one B-frame my testfile of 10minutes will be 200kb greater.

You have three types of compression:
(1) I frames only ( worse compression )
(2) I and P ( better compression )
(3) I, B and P ( Best compression )

So the lower the bitrate, #3 will give best quality.
However, for studio broadcast quality, I frames only at a very high bitrate ( ~50,000 ) will give the best quality.

I can't see how you possibly got better quality without B frames. Unless you used a much higher bitrate with I and P than with I, B and P frames.

-kwag

Encoder Master 12-05-2003 12:33 PM

Later I will post you some results and you can see what I mean. :D

kwag 12-05-2003 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Just for kicks, here's a clip at 160x120 (QQVGA resolution).
http://www.kvcd.net/smartphone-160x120.mpg
It's 38 seconds long, and only 431KB :lol:

That clip's quite dark, I'd be interested in seeing one a bit brighter :D

How about this one :D (No audio!)
http://www.kvcd.net/bourne-small.mpg

Edit: 160x120. GOP = 96 8O, 23.976fps. 3 B frames. CQ_VBR=18.59, KVCD Notch matrix.

-kwag

mistermickster 12-08-2003 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag
Just for kicks, here's a clip at 160x120 (QQVGA resolution).
http://www.kvcd.net/smartphone-160x120.mpg
It's 38 seconds long, and only 431KB :lol:

That clip's quite dark, I'd be interested in seeing one a bit brighter :D

How about this one :D (No audio!)
http://www.kvcd.net/bourne-small.mpg

Edit: 160x120. GOP = 96 8O, 23.976fps. 3 B frames. CQ_VBR=18.59, KVCD Notch matrix.

-kwag

That looks fine Kwag. :)

I've got to get me a Smartphone :D

kwag 12-08-2003 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermickster

I've got to get me a Smartphone :D

Me too :lol:

-kwag


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