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  #1  
12-17-2003, 07:24 AM
mistermickster mistermickster is offline
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Hi Guys,

Although I don't profess to be an expert, I have done a few encodes now, and thought myself capable of producing a comprehensive guide for my friends.

But just recently I have been reading some posts that have gone against the methods I use. So therefore I'd like to clear a few things up before I go too far with the guide and have to totally rewrite it.

I usually use SmartRipper to rip the video stream and 1 english audio stream. Dialhot in this thread suggests DVD Decrypter is better than SmartRipper, Ok, but can it rip selected streams?

Dialhot also suggests in this thread, not to produce a .WAV in DVD2AVI, but demux to a .AC3 file. This again is Ok, as I can go from AC3 -> MP2 in HeadAC3he.

This is all very well, but I could demux the AC3 file when ripping the DVD in SmartRipper, removing the need for DVD2AVI having to do it. Can I do the same in DVD Decrypter?

It has also been suggested, but I can't find where, that a GOP structure of 15 should be used to be able to get exact entry points for chapters same as on the DVD. Would this cut down the compression and reduce CQ by much? I'd like to get the chapters bang on, as they're always slightly off, but not at the expense of picture quality. If the difference is too large, I'll live with the chapters the way they are.

Interlaced video is an interesting one. Some people say find the correct field order, others say de-interlace and treat as progressive. But which gives the best results for DVD sources?

Aspect ratio has always been one to puzzle me. Having a widescreen TV, and wanting to encode a widescreen movie so that it can be viewed on both fullscreen and widescreen TV's without distortion, has been hard for me to grasp Hopefully Dialhot has put me right in this thread, (thanks Phil). I'll let you all know

Finally, I'd like to thank everybody who has helped in the past, (and hopefully in the future too). I have learnt a lot over the last 5 months, which I couldn't have done without Kwag & co
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  #2  
12-17-2003, 07:47 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermickster
I usually use SmartRipper to rip the video stream and 1 english audio stream. Dialhot in this thread suggests DVD Decrypter is better than SmartRipper, Ok, but can it rip selected streams?
Yes, it can.

Quote:
Dialhot also suggests in this thread, not to produce a .WAV in DVD2AVI, but demux to a .AC3 file. This again is Ok, as I can go from AC3 -> MP2 in HeadAC3he.

This is all very well, but I could demux the AC3 file when ripping the DVD in SmartRipper, removing the need for DVD2AVI having to do it. Can I do the same in DVD Decrypter?
You can, but is there any reason why you don't want to use DVD2AVI to demux the audio? If you use Donald Graft's DVD2AVI, you shouldn't use any other program to get the audio out as the delay values may be off.

Quote:
It has also been suggested, but I can't find where, that a GOP structure of 15 should be used to be able to get exact entry points for chapters same as on the DVD. Would this cut down the compression and reduce CQ by much? I'd like to get the chapters bang on, as they're always slightly off, but not at the expense of picture quality. If the difference is too large, I'll live with the chapters the way they are.
The hassle is not worth it. Compression is much lower with 15-frame GOPs than with the 24-frame ones.

Quote:
Interlaced video is an interesting one. Some people say find the correct field order, others say de-interlace and treat as progressive. But which gives the best results for DVD sources?
It depends. If you do KDVDs and have the bits to spare, encode as interlaced. If you do KVCDs (MPEG-1), you must deinterlace. MPEG-1 doesn't support interlaced encoding.

Make sure you really got an interlaced source. No program can tell you whether it is or isn't, only your eyes can tell. If you can see the combing in DVD2AVI (look in several different spots in the clip), then you have an interlaced clip. If you don't see the combs, treat it like it's progressive.

If you encode as interlaced, you must use the correct filtering procedure or you'll get nasty artifacts and very low quality video. Search the forum, there are some threads regarding handling interlaced material.
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  #3  
12-17-2003, 07:54 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Aspect ratio has always been one to puzzle me. Having a widescreen TV, and wanting to encode a widescreen movie so that it can be viewed on both fullscreen and widescreen TV's without distortion, has been hard for me to grasp Hopefully Dialhot has put me right in this thread, (thanks Phil). I'll let you all know
Watch the thread you mentioned again and you will see a added explanation, also look here
www.incredible.de.tf/aspectratios.html
Quote:
Interlaced video is an interesting one. Some people say find the correct field order, others say de-interlace and treat as progressive. But which gives the best results for DVD sources?
Most Blockbuster DVDs aren't interlaced (even if DVD2AVI reports that!).
The're just encoded at 23.976 with a pulldown flag added, so this is why they JUST APPEAR as a 29.976 interlaced stream!

Quote:
It has also been suggested, but I can't find where, that a GOP structure of 15 should be used to be able to get exact entry points for chapters same as on the DVD. Would this cut down the compression and reduce CQ by much? I'd like to get the chapters bang on, as they're always slightly off, but not at the expense of picture quality. If the difference is too large, I'll live with the chapters the way they are.
By just encoding your source again to a 15 GOP (PAL) or 18 GOP (NTSC) this isn't the way to keep the exact positions of intra frames of the source!!!

Because 99% of all high quality DVD mpeg2 streams are encoded with scene change based I frame insertions!! So the only way to get an exact same architecture of the source is to use IFOEdits TmpgEncTemplate generator which gives an original GOP structure of the source in a txt file you can load into TmpgEncs Forced Picture Type settings!! And so YOU CANT use CCE for example to reproduce an exact GOP architecture as the source gots! Thats only possible using TmpgEnc or ReMpeg!

But by doing this the KVCD compression will suffer as its recommended to use 24 / 25
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  #4  
12-17-2003, 08:02 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
And so YOU CANT use CCE for example to reproduce an exact GOP architecture as the source gots! Thats only possible using TmpgEnc or ReMpeg!
If you use CCE, you can try the chapter list. It's supposed to place an I frame at the spot you wish so you can place a chapter point when you author. I've never tried this myself so I don't know if it works or not.
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  #5  
12-17-2003, 08:06 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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ok, but i was refering to an "exact" same architecture of the whole Gops in the source (as for example needed for remuxing in IfoEdit). For just a same I frame insertion your recommendation could work.
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  #6  
12-17-2003, 08:12 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Yes, I forgot to mention that the structure won't be the same, only the forced I-frames will be in the right place.
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  #7  
12-17-2003, 09:18 AM
mistermickster mistermickster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermickster
I usually use SmartRipper to rip the video stream and 1 english audio stream. Dialhot in this thread suggests DVD Decrypter is better than SmartRipper, Ok, but can it rip selected streams?
Yes, it can.
I'll give it a try then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Dialhot also suggests in this thread, not to produce a .WAV in DVD2AVI, but demux to a .AC3 file. This again is Ok, as I can go from AC3 -> MP2 in HeadAC3he.

This is all very well, but I could demux the AC3 file when ripping the DVD in SmartRipper, removing the need for DVD2AVI having to do it. Can I do the same in DVD Decrypter?
You can, but is there any reason why you don't want to use DVD2AVI to demux the audio? If you use Donald Graft's DVD2AVI, you shouldn't use any other program to get the audio out as the delay values may be off.
Just thought it might be quicker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
It has also been suggested, but I can't find where, that a GOP structure of 15 should be used to be able to get exact entry points for chapters same as on the DVD. Would this cut down the compression and reduce CQ by much? I'd like to get the chapters bang on, as they're always slightly off, but not at the expense of picture quality. If the difference is too large, I'll live with the chapters the way they are.
The hassle is not worth it. Compression is much lower with 15-frame GOPs than with the 24-frame ones.
I'll live with it as it is then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Interlaced video is an interesting one. Some people say find the correct field order, others say de-interlace and treat as progressive. But which gives the best results for DVD sources?
It depends. If you do KDVDs and have the bits to spare, encode as interlaced. If you do KVCDs (MPEG-1), you must deinterlace. MPEG-1 doesn't support interlaced encoding.

Make sure you really got an interlaced source. No program can tell you whether it is or isn't, only your eyes can tell. If you can see the combing in DVD2AVI (look in several different spots in the clip), then you have an interlaced clip. If you don't see the combs, treat it like it's progressive.

If you encode as interlaced, you must use the correct filtering procedure or you'll get nasty artifacts and very low quality video. Search the forum, there are some threads regarding handling interlaced material.
I don't do KDVD's, but I do KVCD's as both MPEG-1 & MPEG-2. Are you saying I should deinterlace for both of these What would happen if I encoded an interlaced source as progressive

Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Aspect ratio has always been one to puzzle me. Having a widescreen TV, and wanting to encode a widescreen movie so that it can be viewed on both fullscreen and widescreen TV's without distortion, has been hard for me to grasp Hopefully Dialhot has put me right in this thread, (thanks Phil). I'll let you all know
Watch the thread you mentioned again and you will see a added explanation, also look here
www.incredible.de.tf/aspectratios.html
I'll give it a try at 4:3 625 line PAL, Center and see how I go

Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Interlaced video is an interesting one. Some people say find the correct field order, others say de-interlace and treat as progressive. But which gives the best results for DVD sources?
Most Blockbuster DVDs aren't interlaced (even if DVD2AVI reports that!).
The're just encoded at 23.976 with a pulldown flag added, so this is why they JUST APPEAR as a 29.976 interlaced stream!
Does DVD2AVI not display the Frame Type correctly Does this apply to PAL sources
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  #8  
12-17-2003, 09:24 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Quote:
Most Blockbuster DVDs aren't interlaced (even if DVD2AVI reports that!).
The're just encoded at 23.976 with a pulldown flag added, so this is why they JUST APPEAR as a 29.976 interlaced stream!
Given this, is there any reason to encode a DVD source interlaced when using KDVD to compress a file for burning on to a DVD? I use decomb to check for interlacing, pattern and threshold. If this shows that my DVD is interlaced (also shown as 29.97 film in DVD2AVI), will encoding interlaced rather than Telecide/Decimate make a better DVD? Assuming, of course, that CQ is the same in both cases.
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  #9  
12-17-2003, 09:32 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Use your eyes to decide whether the clip is interlaced, as I said, DVD2AVI doesn't have a clue. I don't think that Decomb can tell you if the clip is interlaced or not - but feel free to enlighten me if you know some trick that I don't

MPEG-2 doesn't necessarily need to be deinterlaced (DVDs use MPEG-2). Like I said, if you've got the bitrate to spare, encode as interlaced. You'll get a sharper picture on your TV and smoother movement but the filesize will be somewhat larger with the same CQ than a progressive stream would produce.

I suspect that if you encode an interlaced stream as progressive, you would end up with jerky motion and odd artifacts. I don't know what would happen if you encoded a progressive stream as interlaced
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  #10  
12-17-2003, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
What would happen if I encoded an interlaced source as progressive
Try it and you will see...
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  #11  
12-17-2003, 09:44 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Use your eyes to decide whether the clip is interlaced, as I said, DVD2AVI doesn't have a clue. I don't think that Decomb can tell you if the clip is interlaced or not - but feel free to enlighten me if you know some trick that I don't

MPEG-2 doesn't necessarily need to be deinterlaced (DVDs use MPEG-2). Like I said, if you've got the bitrate to spare, encode as interlaced. You'll get a sharper picture on your TV and smoother movement but the filesize will be somewhat larger with the same CQ than a progressive stream would produce.

I suspect that if you encode an interlaced stream as progressive, you would end up with jerky motion and odd artifacts. I don't know what would happen if you encoded a progressive stream as interlaced

I use decomb500 with the tutorial (I think you recommended it to me). I use the parameters to get the information before encoding.

For example:

Telecide(order=1,guide=1,post=3,vthresh=25,show=tr ue)

Shows interlaced and progressive frames.
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  #12  
12-17-2003, 10:38 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
I use decomb500 with the tutorial (I think you recommended it to me). I use the parameters to get the information before encoding.

For example:

Telecide(order=1,guide=1,post=3,vthresh=25,show=tr ue)

Shows interlaced and progressive frames.
That depends on the vthresh value! So it doesn't necessarily mean that the clip is really interlaced..you're still better off using your eyes to decide.
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  #13  
12-17-2003, 10:39 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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NickSteel, why doing that complicate pre-avisynthing just for inspecting if its interlaced or not?
Just open your VOBs in DVD2AVI and move to a fast motion scene if you see combs interlaced ... Thats it.
I dont give any on what DVD2AVI "says" in the right window, .. I don't trust this.

(EDIT: Boulder just answered this too )


Quote:
Given this, is there any reason to encode a DVD source interlaced when using KDVD to compress a file for burning on to a DVD? I use decomb to check for interlacing, pattern and threshold. If this shows that my DVD is interlaced (also shown as 29.97 film in DVD2AVI), will encoding interlaced rather than Telecide/Decimate make a better DVD? Assuming, of course, that CQ is the same in both cases.
Thats the point !!
"29,976 FILM NTSC" you see the word "Film" in there! That already means it can't be interlaced. But don't trust DVD2AVI.
If you would apply a Telecide() decimate () to such a source ... well ... very bad encodings would come out.

The principal thing is that there's NO need to encode a KVCD at 29,976!!

1. 29,976 comes with toooo much movieinformation and therefore much more bits are needed in comparison to 23.976.

2. Encoding mpeg2 already needs some extra bits, but even interlaced will feed by much more bitrate! If you want to preserve the advantages of an interlaced encoding so this is only a full quality point in case of KDVD and thats why I reallocated the Matrix Values to a KVCD interlaced matrix version.

Even at sources 29,976 VIDEO (not FILM!) which do base on real 29.976 (not telecined) FPS, ... you can convert this to 23,976 FPS with nice motion preserved! Watch the KVCD interlaced Matrix Thread, there I postet a function, written by sharfis_brain which does exactly such a conversion!

Quote:
Are you saying I should deinterlace for both of these What would happen if I encoded an interlaced source as progressive
In case of KVCD you should deinterlace! No matter if mpeg1 is choosen or mpeg2 mpeg1 no interlaced support, mpeg2 too much bitrate needed and in case of KVCD we exactly want to avoid this.

The interlaced state comes with the Field/Frame structure of the source, so if you just encode this one as "progressive" a ZigZag Matrix scan order will be used on an interlaced stream, ... well that's not a big pain, but its not senseful. Also a "Progressive-only" flag would be set and this could give problems to your standalone.

BUT! I suggest you should "try" ... just do some crazy thing and by this you also get some experiences ... and thats where most developings are based on try and error. So as Abond said, just try it.
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  #14  
12-17-2003, 11:03 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
I use decomb500 with the tutorial (I think you recommended it to me). I use the parameters to get the information before encoding.

For example:

Telecide(order=1,guide=1,post=3,vthresh=25,show=tr ue)

Shows interlaced and progressive frames.
That depends on the vthresh value! So it doesn't necessarily mean that the clip is really interlaced..you're still better off using your eyes to decide.
Boulder, I'm confused (as usual, I'm afraid).

Given the above Telecide line, and with many frames (above the vthresh value) showing combing in VirtualDub-MPEG2, can the clip still be noninterlaced? In other words, can a progressive clip contain this combing?
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  #15  
12-17-2003, 11:22 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulder
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
I use decomb500 with the tutorial (I think you recommended it to me). I use the parameters to get the information before encoding.

For example:

Telecide(order=1,guide=1,post=3,vthresh=25,show=tr ue)

Shows interlaced and progressive frames.
That depends on the vthresh value! So it doesn't necessarily mean that the clip is really interlaced..you're still better off using your eyes to decide.
Boulder, I'm confused (as usual, I'm afraid).

Given the above Telecide line, and with many frames (above the vthresh value) showing combing in VirtualDub-MPEG2, can the clip still be noninterlaced? In other words, can a progressive clip contain this combing?
If you see combing even in just one frame, you've got an interlaced clip. I suppose that all captures should be treated as interlaced if you capture at a vertical resolution of 480/576 (NTSC/PAL) as you'll capture both fields.

I do a lot of TV captures and most NTSC-origin material don't show much combing. Still it can be found, people's mouths are a good place to look for combing A Star Trek TOS episode capture may have approximately 10 combed frames out of 75000!

When you test if the clip is interlaced or not, don't do any filtering at all. Either check the clip in DVD2AVI as Incredible said or load it in VirtualDub via Avisynth with AVISource("path\clip.avi") as the only line in the script.
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  #16  
12-17-2003, 11:28 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Quote:
When you test if the clip is interlaced or not, don't do any filtering at all. Either check the clip in DVD2AVI as Incredible said or load it in VirtualDub via Avisynth with AVISource("path\clip.avi") as the only line in the script.
Will do. It's also a whole lot simplier!

Thanks Guys!
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  #17  
12-17-2003, 11:35 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Nick, in case of DVD as source, open your VOBs in DVD2AVI or in the case:

Move in the window to a fast motion scene.

Now what do you see??

That?:


Or that?:

Images (c) from inmatrix.com

In the first case its "really" interlaced and thats what counts, so your NTSC source also will be 29.976! And in case of a Hollywood-Movie you can be shure that its originally shot on FILM! That means in regulary it has been TELECINED and in such a case you perform your telecide(), decimate() commands.

In the case below ... its in a progressive state and therefore encoded at 23.976 with a pulldownflag added. And thats why DVD2AVI recognises EVEN THIS as a 29.976 interlaced stream.

Here's a nice article:
http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtc.shtml

Also a must in case of valuable information:
http://www.100fps.com/
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  #18  
12-18-2003, 04:07 AM
mistermickster mistermickster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermickster
Aspect ratio has always been one to puzzle me. Having a widescreen TV, and wanting to encode a widescreen movie so that it can be viewed on both fullscreen and widescreen TV's without distortion, has been hard for me to grasp Hopefully Dialhot has put me right in this thread, (thanks Phil). I'll let you all know
Looks great Thanks Phil, again.
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  #19  
12-18-2003, 06:22 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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