Quantcast FFmpeg: my Really Good Experience and Settings with FFvfw - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
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02-08-2004, 08:31 AM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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Hi everybody!

This is my first post in this forum but I am an old and happy "annonymous visitor" and I can say that this one and doom9 is what I ever needed to learn making great video cd's. I succesfully used notch matrix for many quality encodings.

This passion with mpeg started last summer when I received as a gift a dvd/vcd/svcd player and after that I bought a tv tuner card. So my old dream to have a VCR finally and unexpectedly came true. (For those that wonder I'm in an former communist east european country where money don't pour out of the sky).

So my interest is basically making VCD's with tv captures. I don't have a dvd writer so resolution of 352x288 (PAL) is enough for me right now. I used tmpgenc and notch matrix a lot until I discovered ffvfw in this forum a week ago. (Many thanks Kwag - I had installed ffvfw months ago but I always thought is all about mpeg4). I also tried CCE with notch matrix and I cannot say it's better than tmpgenc at that resolution and bitrate - I make usually 140 min KVCD's (sitcoms) or 180 min (animaton).

I am really amazed by this FFVFW encoder and I think that if you understand how it works it can do miracles especially at low bitrates. It looks that it uses some advanced mpeg4-xvid techniques for mpeg2 encoding. I am sorry to see that other people ceassed to use it because I think it has a lot of potential and in the mpeg4 world that comes a real better mpeg2 encoder will never be developped. And for people that can't afford the last divx hardware player or an expensive dvd writer a good quality KVCD is a reasonable solution. (I preffer to watch a good 352x288 KVCD on my tv than a full resolution divx on my pc monitor).

I really hope that this tool will be further developed but for that to happen it needs more developers (because the project is huge) and this will never be without enthusiast users. Also us, the users, we cold really use a more detailed and explained help. I am by no means a programer and all I can do is sit and wait but I hope that my opinions are reaching somewhere.

This could be in mpeg2 encoding what is LAME for mp3 (if it isn't right now).

Finally, I want to thank Milan and others for their great job with ffmpeg, ffvfw, ffdshow. And PLEASE, programers and movie encoding freaks, keep it going!

Stay tuned, I'll post in few minutes the settings I use that make me happy.
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02-08-2004, 08:42 AM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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For those interested and not bored enough by my previous post I expose here the steps I personally take for making a good VCD with ffvfw and tv captures

1.Capture the show in mpeg2 format (I use WinDVR that came with my tv tuner) ? resolution 352x288, 4000 kbps. -as I don't have enough space for huffyuv.

2. Process the mpeg2 file with dvd2avi-dg (it demuxes the audio track and it shows the delay)

3. Make an avisynth script. This is what I use, it's enough for me (I have a fairly good tv signal and I never really understood the adaptive scripts Kwag uses- but it's me, I don't have a programer brain)

Code:
loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\pluginz\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll")
loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\pluginz\peachsmoother.dll")
loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\pluginz\fluxsmooth.dll")
loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\pluginz\mpasource.dll")

v1=mpeg2source("G:\Capture\test.d2v",cpu=0,idct=6)
a1=mpasource("G:\Capture\test MPA T01 DELAY 68ms.mpa",normalize=true).bufferaudio().delayaudio(0.068)

d1=audiodub(v1,a1)

processed=d1.fluxsmooth().converttoyuy2().peachsmoother().crop(16,16,320,256).addborders(16,16,16,16)

return processed
4. I open Graphedit and select Avi/wav filesource:




I select as avi/wav source the previously created avs script and make the folowing connections of output pins with dump at the end.



This will result in the end in 3 files: one fake avi file, one mpeg2 video track and a wav file. The wav have to be further encoded to mp2 with toolame.

5.Let's get back to the video branch and see what settings I use for making good vcd's with ffvfw. Open ffvfw properties:


I choose 720 Kbps one pass constant bitrate as I wish to squeeze in 140 mins on one 80 min CD with 64K mono audio track and that value is obtained from Moviestacker.

I had good results with 4 B frames - the average quantizer stays lower. I'm in PAL world so the NTSC things could be different, I don't know.

6.


I enable chroma all over the place. I think ?rate distoration? gives better results at same bitrate and encoding speed than ?fewest bits?. I don't know what exactly does ?Last predictor count? but if I set it over 1 with Adaptive size 3 the graph crashes. Also I set ME pre-pass to ?always?, it doesn't slow down too much the encoding.

7.


I use quantization type H.263. I don't know what H.263 is but the result is far better than with mpeg , even with notch matrix. With H.263 the file plays fine on my standalone and Restream says that it has Standard Q Matrix.

Observe that I let it have 31 max quantizer. If I put 2 or 3 as max quantizer the encoder respect that setting but it is unable to respect the file size requirement as it cannot raise the quantizer when it needs. So, for the people that complain that they have too high bitrate peaks, let free up to 31 the max quantizer setting (don't be afraid, it will not come that much high).

To make that clearer: if you put a small max quantizer value and a small enough bitrate the encoder will try to raise the quantizer (because of small bitrate) but cannot pass your max q setting and it will remain there resulting in a straight line in bitrate viewer, but will raise up to the sky the bitrate, if the complexity of the movie asks for it. So, choose what it makes you happy but be warned, the final filesize will not be known in that case, will be another flavour of one pass quantizer setting.

The I and B multiplier setting means that the I frames will have generally a 80% of average quantization and B frames - 125%. The offset means that (for this example) the quantization of B frames will be the average quantization x125% + 1.25. I let those settings alone as I couldnt come up with better settings so far.

8.

I choose here the real mpeg2 file that the graph will output. I choose ?RAW frames? as it ouputs a non-multiplexed stream, so will be no need to demux.

9.

I make those settings to have visual feedback during encoding.

10. This is the version of ffvfw I use:


11. I play the graph

At the beginning the encoder does not respect your setting regarding the bitrate, using a very large quantizer value. But as the encoding goes on it self adjusts to a more apropriate value (by lowering the quantizer) and in the end you will have a right sized file. As a result, the quality at the beginning of the movie is poorer for a few minutes (it has a lower bitrate than needed) and here I think the encoder has to be improved (if that is possible, because also it might be a side effect of the really cool CBR method that ffvfw uses - in fact VBR). Of course, a way of getting rid of this issue is to encode in two steps with the dissadvantage of almost doubling the encoding time and I don't think it pays off. (Almost doubling because I noticed that usually the 2nd pass takes less time than 1st pass)

BTW, did you know that you can use StatsReader from Xvid to modify the obtained 1st pass stats file and then encode with 2nd pass ext?

12.

In the end, when the encoding is finished you have to open the m2v obtained file (no demux needed) with Restream to corect the aspect to 4:3 and the bitrate from 104857200 to 2560000 (for (s)vcd's). I think that hillarious huge bitrate is the flaw making bbmpeg to explode (and bitrate viewer too).

13. Finally, all you have to do is: encode the obtained wav audio track with toolame, multiplex all with bbmpeg (as a VCD), author with VCDWizard and burn it.

I hope that all this stuff was usefull to somebody and I really think that everyhing can be improved. I'm waiting for a real help file originated from the authors of the program (or anybody that really knows) because it's a real pain in the ass to figure out by testing every feature and wondering what it does. We are losing precious time learning and not making and testing. And as I can see some of us are loosing faith. BTW, because I don't know what every setting is doing my way of making VCD's could be completely wrong or could be much better.

Although my post is about VCD's I think that many aspects could apply to DVD's too. I don't know since I don't have a dvd writer. It's up to you to test and post results.

Anyway ffvfw is GREAT. Many thanks Kwag, because your settings I used to begin playing with ffvfw and because you are enthusiast about this encoder. And your enthusiasm passed to us too and opened our eyes. And many thanks to all that ever posted here because we all learned from your experience.

Sorry for being too long, it's a flaw of mine.

Waiting for opinions/insults/corections/improvements.

Marcellus
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02-08-2004, 11:18 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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That sounds interesting, could you point correctly to your pics?
Because they only can be seen if typing the url directly to a separate browser window, ... seems to be a safe/prohiviton of your provider to not share just pics on other URLs ??

Greets

Inc
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02-08-2004, 11:58 AM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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This is amazing Marcellus.
I have no time yet to test it, but it sounds delicious I've used graphedit to create direct filters/codecs flow for OGG6ch encoding, cause I found that this way gives better results (whole 6ch 44kHz file at only ~140kbps and less, while for instance oagMachine produces only 48kHz files with bitrate no less than ~250kbps, both the same quality). I'm in process of precise reading, and second I finich (and understand ) encode begins
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02-08-2004, 12:15 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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@marcellus,

Welcome to KVCD.
I saved your .gifs locally, and pointed them here in your post, because they don't display on the link you posted.
Hope that's ok with you
If not, please let me know

-kwag
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02-08-2004, 12:23 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi marcellus,

The Bitrate(Kbps) fiels doesn't control the bitrate at all
Please check our findings on the other ffvfw threads.
That field controls the VBV buffer size, and doesn't have any relationship with average bitrate.

-kwag
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02-08-2004, 12:27 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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...only one jig, that i don't have ffvfw in GE list (ffdshow - no problem) It egzist on VD codec list. Any idea what's going one. Reinstal helps nothing.

EDIT: one thing from small manual:
"Motion estimation"
...
"Warning: chroma doesn't work with b frames currently"
...
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02-08-2004, 12:28 PM
Encoder Master Encoder Master is offline
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Hey kwag

I've problems with the average bitrate. In ONE-PASS CBR Mode I set the value to 650kbps and the result was a 1550kbps file. What did I wrong?
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02-08-2004, 12:43 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encoder Master
Hey kwag

I've problems with the average bitrate. In ONE-PASS CBR Mode I set the value to 650kbps and the result was a 1550kbps file. What did I wrong?
You haven't been following the ffvfw threads very closely
I clearly specified that the Bitrate(Kbps) maintains the VBV buffer size. NOT the bitrate.

-kwag
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02-08-2004, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encoder Master
Hey kwag

I've problems with the average bitrate. In ONE-PASS CBR Mode I set the value to 650kbps and the result was a 1550kbps file. What did I wrong?
You just didn't read what Kwag wrote a few posst above
There is no way to fix avg bitrate with this codec.
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02-08-2004, 12:58 PM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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Quote:
Kwag wrote:
Hi marcellus,

The Bitrate(Kbps) fiels doesn't control the bitrate at all
Please check our findings on the other ffvfw threads.
That field controls the VBV buffer size, and doesn't have any relationship with average bitrate.
I have to disagree with that. I don't know about vbv buffer size and it's importance for playing the resulted file (I never had problems with that) but when you set a specific bitrate and you let the max quantizers alone (at 31) the encoder tries (and so far for me did a pretty good job) to come up with a final file at that average bitrate. Of course, if you put a low max quantizer the encoder respects that and disregards the bitrate, resulting a file with a higher bitrate but with a lower quantizer.
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02-08-2004, 01:02 PM
Encoder Master Encoder Master is offline
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Quote:
You just didn't read what Kwag wrote a few posst above
There is no way to fix avg bitrate with this codec.
Then I can also choose one-pass Quality, or?
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02-08-2004, 01:15 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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In my case, when I set max quantizer to a very high value (like 31) quality of the picture is "fluctuating" from good to very bad (alot of quanizers) and it's periodical (with max GOP period). I preffer to keep max and min quantizer values near.
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02-08-2004, 01:20 PM
incredible incredible is offline
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EM! Please "read" the ffvfw thread and use as shown in here above "one pass constante Bitrate". Avalon postet totally different values, but these values in here are proofed to work with a correct VBV output and Quantisation, ... and now we have to see how handling that quantisation according to linear Q curves and less blocks as possible.
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02-08-2004, 01:45 PM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus
In my case, when I set max quantizer to a very high value (like 31) quality of the picture is "fluctuating" from good to very bad (alot of quanizers) and it's periodical (with max GOP period). I preffer to keep max and min quantizer values near.
Yes, that could happen. You can shorten the GOP but that will raise the average quantizer. And I think that it is a lot to play for all of us with all those obscure settings (for me anyway) in Rate control tab and with I/B multipliers and offsets.
Nothing of this blind search had happen if we had a real help or manual. Is anybody in touch with the author because we sure need some expert advice.
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02-08-2004, 01:50 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Kwag and I have sended mails fo Milan, but no reply yet to me (Kwag didn't boast of reply neither)
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02-08-2004, 02:15 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Alarm: Newbie question here!:
Why use GraphEdit?. Is it faster than VirtualDub?. Is it possible to employ raw output mode in VirtualDub also, and avoid having to demux?.
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02-08-2004, 02:19 PM
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Yes, you can avoid demux. Choose RAW instead of MPEG1 stream.
GraphEdit is only DS filter "combiner", sometimes is faster, and for sure it does not imply encoding aplication errors. In this case I can't use it, while i still have no ffvfw in GE filter list

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Alarm: Newbie question here!
No, no and one more time no I'm the bigest newbie around
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02-08-2004, 02:54 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellus
Quote:
Kwag wrote:
Hi marcellus,

The Bitrate(Kbps) fiels doesn't control the bitrate at all
Please check our findings on the other ffvfw threads.
That field controls the VBV buffer size, and doesn't have any relationship with average bitrate.
I have to disagree with that. I don't know about vbv buffer size and it's importance for playing the resulted file (I never had problems with that) but when you set a specific bitrate and you let the max quantizers alone (at 31) the encoder tries (and so far for me did a pretty good job) to come up with a final file at that average bitrate. Of course, if you put a low max quantizer the encoder respects that and disregards the bitrate, resulting a file with a higher bitrate but with a lower quantizer.
Hi marcellus,

Please read my first post here, and all that follow it: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....=asc&start=272

It is a fact that the bitrate value setting in this CODEC doesn't have anything to do with average bitrate.
As a matter of fact, if you drag the mpegs you have created with such a low value in that field, over to Bitrate Viewer, you are going to see a VBV size of less that ~20, which is a very small value for a VBV buffer for any decoder (player).
When you set the value to 6426, that sets the VBV value to the DVD standard size.
For making a VCD, you must set the size to 1147
I found out about this behavior with this CODEC, and other here confirmed it too.

-kwag
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02-08-2004, 05:41 PM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellus
Quote:
Kwag wrote:
Hi marcellus,

The Bitrate(Kbps) fiels doesn't control the bitrate at all
Please check our findings on the other ffvfw threads.
That field controls the VBV buffer size, and doesn't have any relationship with average bitrate.
I have to disagree with that. I don't know about vbv buffer size and it's importance for playing the resulted file (I never had problems with that) but when you set a specific bitrate and you let the max quantizers alone (at 31) the encoder tries (and so far for me did a pretty good job) to come up with a final file at that average bitrate. Of course, if you put a low max quantizer the encoder respects that and disregards the bitrate, resulting a file with a higher bitrate but with a lower quantizer.
Hi marcellus,

Please read my first post here, and all that follow it: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....=asc&start=272

It is a fact that the bitrate value setting in this CODEC doesn't have anything to do with average bitrate.
As a matter of fact, if you drag the mpegs you have created with such a low value in that field, over to Bitrate Viewer, you are going to see a VBV size of less that ~20, which is a very small value for a VBV buffer for any decoder (player).
When you set the value to 6426, that sets the VBV value to the DVD standard size.
For making a VCD, you must set the size to 1147
I found out about this behavior with this CODEC, and other here confirmed it too.

-kwag
Hi Kwag! I really apreciate the research that you and others are making and I sincerelly want that all this effort to pay off, because all of us here are looking for better quality/lower bitrate/higher encoding speed.

With all the respect that I owe you (I tried very hard and weeks in a row and I couldn't come up with a better Q matrix than your "notch" matrix), don't mistake me for a quick poster. I did my homework and I was aware of the previous threads before first posting here. In fact anxiously reading them and encoding was all my activity in spare time last week - I even neglected a bit some other things, my wife could say something here.

Perhaps we are talking about different things. My post is about my experience with VCD encodings, not DVD's, since I don't have the proper equipment. Encoding VCD's at 352x288 I never encountered any VBV buffer problem. All that I encoded played beautyfully on my sony dvd player. I had at some point problems muxing ( bbmpeg exploded, bitrate viewer also) but not anymore since I corect the file in Restream. One little problem remains: when I open the encoded file (even after Restream) in Media Player Classic it has wrong timesize and consequently I can't search in file. But after multiplex all it's OK.

On the other hand I don't say that the vbv buffer size problem does not exist, I can believe that the encoder does really have some problems that occurs at higher resolution and bitrates than the ones I use but your method avoiding them is a workaround and not the proper use of this codec (not the way it was designed), leading to a deadend. In fact a couple of people here declared that they quit using this codec and I think it's a shame because it has far more advanced algorithms than tmpegenc or cce. That quiting made me in fact posting because the things IMHO got in the wrong way. The right way is that the author of the software make some corrections, not to establish a wrong way of encoding. (BTW, can anybody corner Milan and show him the fist? -joking of course, Milan deserves all my respect)

How come you are so sure that the bitrate setting has no link with the bitrate obtained since I obtain proper sized files with my method on a regular basis?

Taking the chance to be too long (and making abstraction of VBV buffer problem since I don't have/understand it) I have to make some things clearer (the way I see them)

-My basic interest is TV captures encoding and putting them on a regular 80' CD. I usually record everyday at least 2 episodes of a sitcom I love (In my country a station reschedulled Seinfeld late in the night), so I don't want to spend hours and hours of encodings, predictions and so on, EVERY DAY, just to have 6 episodes of this sitcom on one CD every third day. I am happy with the result viewed on my tv since I don't watch it on the pc monitor with a magnifyer glass in my hand.

-FFVFW seems to be the most pleasant encoder whatched "moving" on my tv. I think that static shots taken from tmpgenc might look better than FFVFW but IMHO all that matters is how the pictures look in movement. FFVFW has fewer artifacts on that side, because probably his advanced ME.

-My "CBR" method (in fact the Milan's since I'm not adding anything to it, just I questionably play with some settings) is far from being perfect but right now it's a good trade betwen quality/filesize prediction/encoding time. My results that way are better than with "tmpgenc mpeg1 -notch matrix- CQ filesize prediction", regarding my exposed purpose.

-If you want a better quality (and you will not have much more) at the same filesize you have to spend more time and do a two pass encoding.

-If you want the best quality this encoder can come up with disregarding the file size you have to stop at first step with the two pass encoding since it encodes first step at a quantizer less than 2. (One flaw in the encoder is that you can't set anywere else a quantizer less than 2 - in quantizer mode setting it to 1 hasn't the expected result).

-If you limit the quantizer value to 2, 3 or so you will naturally have a good constant quality (meaning the much praised straight line in bitrate viewer) but you can kiss your file size prediction good bye or you could try again and again the old methods that you, Kwag, already dumped along with the developement of CQ (if I understood well). As I said before, a side effect limiting the max q value is "unlimiting" the bitrate value, problem that some people here encountered.

I hope I made myself understood trying to put this codec in the right place since it has too much quality and brains inside and I really think that it not deserves to be dumped due to improper use.

Anyway all I said before could have no relevance in making a DVD and if so I apologize in advance for any inconvenience. I have no way to verify that on a DVD writer.

With all the friendship and still waiting everybody to corect me!

Marcellus

P.S. And please, all of you, excuse my english.
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