Quantcast KVCD Converts to KDVD Audio Issues? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
02-16-2004, 04:24 PM
kenguard kenguard is offline
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I've got some encodes I did to make KVCDs but have decided to put all of the shows on a KDVD. Some of the sources are 25fps pal and some are 23.976. I am able to use the pulldown on the M1V files to make them M2V to burn to DVD but I'm running into audio problems. I've only tried the files that were PAL, but I assume it would be the same for the NTSC sources.

To keep the audio in sync, I've had to use BeSweet to convert the 25 fps wave file to 29fps MP2. When muxed, it's in sync but the audio has sped up to keep pace with the video and it's got the chipmunk sound. Muxing with a MP2 that was converted to 23.976 fps gives me a MPG with extremely out-of-sync audio.

On the KVCD side, I can convert the audio to 23.976 and mux it in sync without noticeable slowing because theres not much difference between 24 and 25 fps.

Is there a way around the audio problem going to 29.97 fps? Or should I just go with KVCD?
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  #2  
02-16-2004, 04:42 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenguard
I've only tried the files that were PAL, but I assume it would be the same for the NTSC sources.

To keep the audio in sync, I've had to use BeSweet to convert the 25 fps wave file to 29fps MP2.

You say you are doing the PAL kvcd you have : why the hell do you want to put them to 29.970??? That is a NTSC frame rate ! PAL is 25, nothing else.

Quote:
Muxing with a MP2 that was converted to 23.976 fps gives me a MPG with extremely out-of-sync audio.
A 23.976 that is converted to 29.970 by pulldown process DOES NOT CHANGE ITS LENGTH and so, the audio don't have to be speed up. YOu have nothing to do on the audio.

Your problem is that pulldown DOES NOT work on MPEG1 ! How did you manage to do that ? Pulldown is a mpeg2 feature !

Quote:
On the KVCD side, I can convert the audio to 23.976 and mux it in sync without noticeable slowing because theres not much difference between 24 and 25 fps.
There is exactly one tone.

Quote:
Or just reencode the sources for KVDVD and forget about trying to make the KVCD files work on KDVD?
Forget making MPEG1 that are 23.976 without reencoding them.
MPEG2 can be processed with no problem (nothing to do on the audio as said above).
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  #3  
02-16-2004, 05:05 PM
kenguard kenguard is offline
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Hello again Dialhot.

Quote:
You say you are doing the PAL kvcd you have : why the hell do you want to put them to 29.970??? That is a NTSC frame rate ! PAL is 25, nothing else.
I don't want PAL, I want NTSC. I encoded the M1V files for the KVCD project at 23.976 fps, now I'm considering going to KDVD to put them all on one DVD. The 29.97fps is for TMPGenc DVD Author.


Quote:
Your problem is that pulldown DOES NOT work on MPEG1 ! How did you manage to do that ? Pulldown is a mpeg2 feature !
I may need to clarify that I used pulldown on the M1V file (without audio) to achieve the 29.97 fps for DVD Author.

I've had no problem with using GUI_PULLDOWN.EXE for MPEG1 (M1V) files. I read it could be done in another topic and found that it can. I used BeSweet to create a separate MP2 file to mux with the pulleddown M2V. I chose the preset (PAL to NTSC 25 to 29.97) in BeSweet and created a 128kbps MP2. This is where the audio speeds up.


Quote:
Forget making MPEG1 that are 23.976 without reencoding them.
MPEG2 can be processed with no problem (nothing to do on the audio as said above).
It sounds like I'm going about this the wrong way. I was attempting to use the already usable KVCD files on KDVD without reencoding them by just using pulldown, and muxing with MP2 created from 48KHz wav file from source AVI. My whole process works, but the audio is not what I would like.
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02-16-2004, 05:59 PM
kenguard kenguard is offline
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Dialhot,

I have both 44.1KHz and 48KHz wav files to create my MP2 files in their original fps from the sources, and M1V files from KVCD encoding

Should I even be spinnig my wheeels trying to put these MPEG1 files that are 352x240 23.976fps on DVD? I was only trying to avoid reencoding and the additional drive space usage.
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02-16-2004, 08:01 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenguard
I've had no problem with using GUI_PULLDOWN.EXE for MPEG1 (M1V) files. I read it could be done in another topic and found that it can. I used BeSweet to create a separate MP2 file to mux with the pulleddown M2V.
Read yourself carefully : you pulldowned a m1v and... obtain a m2v.
So... ? Pulldown can't be achieve on m1v. That is a mpeg2 feature !

I never understand why pulldown.exe accept m1v as source but as you can see : that does not work. Because I repeat : a pulldowned movie does not change it's length so the audio musn't be changed !

If after pulldown you find that the length (in minutes) of the video is shorter (that means the video plays faster), then that means that the pulldown process screwed up.

Quote:
I chose the preset (PAL to NTSC 25 to 29.97) in BeSweet and created a 128kbps MP2. This is where the audio speeds up.
I understood that and the speed up is normal : you just asked to play a 30 frame per second something designed to be played in 25 fps.
The things are so speed up by 25/30 = 1/6 !

Quote:
It sounds like I'm going about this the wrong way. I was attempting to use the already usable KVCD files on KDVD without reencoding them by just using pulldown, and muxing with MP2 created from 48KHz wav file from source AVI. My whole process works, but the audio is not what I would like.
Not really important as I'm quite sure that your m1v "pulldowned to a m2v", even with no sound, won't be played on the standalone.
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  #6  
02-16-2004, 08:20 PM
kenguard kenguard is offline
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I get what you mean. I didn't quite get what you were saying in your first post.

It will play in my standalone player, a $35 Norcent DP-300 "golden oldie" running the blue dolphin software. It just has undesireable audio.

Thank you for your valuable insight, as always.
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  #7  
02-17-2004, 04:29 PM
Lagoon Lagoon is offline
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Hum I'm pretty sure I pulldowned some MPG1 files and successfully authored them in Maestro, I'll have to find those DVDs to check.

They also works in TMPEG DVD Author if I remember well.
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02-17-2004, 04:58 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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http://www.projectorpeople.com/tutorials/pulldown.asp

3:2 pulldown converts a progressive 23.976 stream (called movie mode) into an interlaced 29.970 one (aka video mode).

Mpeg1 can't be interlaced. Only MPEG2 supports both interlaced/progressive mode.

Now, let's explain to me how pulldown can be achieved correctly on mpeg1 without screwing every fields...
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  #9  
02-17-2004, 05:21 PM
Lagoon Lagoon is offline
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Alright, I didn't even know 23.976 interlaced does exist

Edit : just realised that I wrote complete nonsense forget this post
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  #10  
02-17-2004, 05:35 PM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Actually, some time ago, I applied pulldown.exe in some MPEG1 23.976 fps 352x240 files I had. Then I successfully imported then in DVDMaestro , burned, and I was able to play them with no issue I know it looks crazy, and I know MPEG1 doesn't have pulldown flag. But it worked, I can assure you.
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  #11  
02-17-2004, 05:47 PM
Lagoon Lagoon is offline
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Thanks, I'm not crazy then I could swear I did it and it worked
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02-17-2004, 07:18 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
I know it looks crazy, and I know MPEG1 doesn't have pulldown flag. But it worked, I can assure you.
For sure pulldown.exe allow you to do taht but YOU COMPLETLY SCREW UP THE FIELD ORDER !

It's like using the wrong field order when deinterlacing an interlaced MPEG2.

Take a AA'BB'CC' stream, pulldown you abtain a AA'ABB'CC'.

If that is a MPEG2 stream, you set the 3:2 pulldown flag and the standalone understands that when it reads AA'ABB'CC' it has to reproduce AA'BB'CC'.Everything is okay.

Now, as you gives it a MPEG1 that is not supposed to be interlaced the standalones reads AA'ABB'CC' and reproduces AA'ABB'CC'

It seems correct to your eyes, but your brain is fooled up.

pulldown.exe has a real problem in tolerating this !
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02-17-2004, 08:56 PM
Lagoon Lagoon is offline
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As long as it still looks right
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02-17-2004, 09:56 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon
As long as it still looks right
Bad eyes, change the eyes
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  #15  
02-17-2004, 10:00 PM
Lagoon Lagoon is offline
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Well what I did this way, I didn't even watch it since it wasnt for me so I really don't know what it looks like.

I rarely do NTSC as it's PAL here
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