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  #21  
02-25-2004, 07:52 AM
Dano Dano is offline
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Haven't tried KDVD but all my KVCD's and SKVCD's played perfectly on my Cyberhome 300.
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  #22  
02-25-2004, 08:01 AM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Offtopic
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellus
Sorry to be so agressive...
"Sorry" is apology for something that we don't wanted to do, and not for intendet behaviour
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellus
... and I hope we are still friends
Stange way to get one, with this words

Back to the topic.
I think that posting some experiences is only resonable, when we get beter (differend) things. Everyone knows results produced with default setings (as your famous H.263 q-type, witch is set after instalation). I've maded some tests (and I think not only me) and there was no diference betwen MPEG q-type. This might be reason of no response. And youre constant bitrate idea was baned with regard for VBV incomplience.
If you want us to understand youre way, then try understand our ways of testing.
Regards.
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  #23  
02-25-2004, 09:06 AM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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I apologize again and I hope that everybody will be able to forgive me.
I am a choleric person and often I get into trouble because of that. My friends are used to it. I'm not a mean person and I never try to offend somebody on purpose but somehow I mange to do that and when I do it I feel sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus
think that posting some experiences is only resonable, when we get beter (differend) things. Everyone knows results produced with default setings (as your famous H.263 q-type, witch is set after instalation). I've maded some tests (and I think not only me) and there was no diference betwen MPEG q-type
Well, when I put a question I expect an answer. Kwag did respond but I think to another question. So I waited for another answer, to my question. How am I supose to know that you did some tests? (BTW, you are first person, beside kwag, that says something straight about it). Why didn't you post anything? Well, I felt really bad. All I could assume is that I was given "let this stupid new guy alone with his stupid questions" treatment, because kwag already spoken. And I further got the impression that when kwag says that something is red nobody tryies to see for himself. Perhaps is only my impression and I apologize for my missunderstanding.

It's not such a big issue anyway, I already forgot it (was a month ago) - to some extent is normal to misstrust the newcomeers. But poershr's findings and questions bring this issue up in my head and I spit it out. I'm sorry for my sharp tongue.

I promise I will not post in this thread again untill I have somethin usefull to say about 2-pass encoding.

Best regards and (I hope) no hard feelings!
marcellus
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  #24  
02-25-2004, 09:25 AM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcellus
All I could assume is that I was given "let this stupid new guy alone with his stupid questions" treatment...
I didn't realize that you could feelt this way. So now accept my apologize.
For now, as I know youre behaviour, I can filter contents from emotions

Keep testing.

I don't have hard feelings.




Ok, I must go hurry now, cause my astrophisic lecture begins in half hour Si ya.

PS: @ALL
Is there any way to change VBV after encoding. I mean like crack file
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  #25  
02-25-2004, 09:44 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus

PS: @ALL
Is there any way to change VBV after encoding. I mean like crack file
The only way I know, is processing the MPEG file with the very first BETA versions of TMPEG, which had a VBV option on the "tools" section.
That will re-process the MPEG file, and create a new one with the correct VBV size.
Right now, the low value of 14 produced by ffvfw, is extremely low and you can actually see blocks and strange artifacts, specially on scene changes, due to the small size.
It's really too small to keep a descent buffering scheme, not to mention compatibility issues. And I mean "standard" DVD compliance.

-kwag
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  #26  
02-25-2004, 09:50 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi everybody,
Let us all try maintining cool as we always do.
I don't take Marcellus or anybody else here personally, yet.
It's good we don't give up easily when we think about something and test to make sure.
One thing that I think I should apologise is for having stopped posting regularly my test results on the ffvfw thread.
But that's just because I was more commited with the Mencoder 4 windows thread since the begining...
I can say that I didn't test h.263 results because I was already more on the mencoder thread.
But I tried the slider for const bitrate since you posted your results Marcellus, and I must say that I always tended to agree with you more than with Karl, since the begining. I mean, in result of my testings...
But I cannot fight a bad vbv when one of my players crashes, and also one from my cousin, too.
Again, I'm sorry for not posting when I should have but I only didn't because I was already more commited to find my way over mencoder than with ffvfw.
Hell, I'm using ffvfw with mencoder through makeAVIS
Don't anybody get angry because it can't help anyone.
We just have to support more each other than we have lately.
But look: the forum doesn't stop. Newbies register everyday and everybody has to give them a hand with prooven tools we've used so far like tmpg.
That doesn't leave much room for testing two new beauties like ffvfw and mencoder.
That's just it.
So have some good testing everybody.
C ya
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  #27  
02-25-2004, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus

PS: @ALL
Is there any way to change VBV after encoding. I mean like crack file
The only way I know, is processing the MPEG file with the very first BETA versions of TMPEG, which had a VBV option on the "tools" section.
That will re-process the MPEG file, and create a new one with the correct VBV size.
Racer in the other ffvfw Thread gave me these links to that mentioned TmpgEnc Version which "should" have VBV options in its Tools-Section.

Till now I didn't test it as I never had these low VBV issues again.

TMPGEnc-0.11.20.97.zip (Main Program) http://www.pcphotovideo.com/Download...0.11.20.97.zip

tmpg_en0725.zip (Update to .12 and Japanese to English Translation) http://www.pcphotovideo.com/Downloads/tmpg_en0725.zip
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  #28  
02-25-2004, 10:22 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Inc & all,
I did test it but it seems it only supports vbv=40.
I didn't see support for 112 or 224.
Sorry for not having posted it before
Mencoder didn't give me a chance to do it...
Cheers
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  #29  
02-25-2004, 10:45 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rds_correia
I did test it but it seems it only supports vbv=40.
I didn't see support for 112 or 224.
You're right. I forgot about that
It's only good for VCDs. Not for DVDs.

-kwag
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  #30  
02-25-2004, 11:45 AM
poerschr poerschr is offline
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Quote:
Now, when I tried it at the store (not really a store, more like an Hi-Fi/Video section at the supermarket) I perfectly remember trying it on at least 8 different models and 2 of these failed to reproduce the clip.
rds_correia, what encoder did you use when testing for low VBV???
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  #31  
02-25-2004, 12:02 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hi Poerschr,
As far as I know it's the latest version from 2004.
I guess it is a build by Athos from the doom9.org.
I never tried with the not so buggy version that Hydeus mentioned already.
Say, if we can fix this problem with vbv I'll prefer using ffvfw instead of mencoder because it's far more friendly
Keep up with the good work.
I promise I'll try to assist you when possible.
Cheers
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  #32  
02-25-2004, 12:06 PM
poerschr poerschr is offline
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My thoughts about the encoding....

When comparing a SVCD created with TMPGenc (using kwag's notch matrix) and the newly encoded second pass stream created by ffvfw(704x480 - H.263 setting - NOT Kwag's matrix), I noticed that for high bite rate scenes ffvfw won hands down...it kicked ass!!

Oddly enough, both files were about he same size...~750MB, maybe even the ffvfw encoded files was smaller...however, the difference in resolution being the main factor...

The way that ffvfw created blocks was very different - I could definately see that ffvfw was much more intellegent than TMPGenc - it was able clearly define blocks around areas that were in the distance. The blocks also seemed solid - this might be due to the H.263 setting - I am not sure). From reading kwag's documentation about H.263, it seemed like this might make sense. (if you guys are positive you do not want to talk about H.263, I will not bring it up again - I just wanted to mention that becasue it was the settings that I already used)

As far as I am concerned, I did not like the precense of these blocks - that is just my personal taste.

I tried another test - this time wilth a lower resolution - 576 x 480. I noticed that the grip filter does not accept this - that is a same! It seemed to me that the encoder repoprduced eactly the same quality - that was funny - I expected these block to disappear (or at least lessen). This allows me to conclude that the way the encoder is currectly functioning is a product of settings - and that much more compression is possible or reproduction of perfect DVD quality at low bitrates is also possible....
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  #33  
02-25-2004, 01:42 PM
marcellus marcellus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poerschr
I tried another test - this time wilth a lower resolution - 576 x 480. I noticed that the grip filter does not accept this - that is a same! It seemed to me that the encoder repoprduced eactly the same quality - that was funny - I expected these block to disappear (or at least lessen).
As I written in another thread I blame for blockiness of ffvfw the minimum setting of 2 that it let you put as minimum quantizer. The nondetailed areas I think get sometime over-quantized. In my wish list of ffvfw improvements a minimum quantizer of 1 should have its place. But anyway I prefer this blockiness, that I'm not finding very annoying, to other artifacts of other encoders (at small bitrates, where I like to play).

marcellus

P.S. I'm happy and gratefull for the good tolerance for my lack of proper behaviour. I will try not to abuse it in the future again
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  #34  
02-25-2004, 03:01 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poerschr
I tried another test - this time wilth a lower resolution - 576 x 480. I noticed that the grip filter does not accept this - that is a same!
What is a shame ? To not accept a resolution THAT IS NOT A VALID RESOLUTION ? I don't think so

Sansgrip, the author of the gripfit filter, knew sooooo much more about video encoding than you that you should bite your tongue before arguing like this

Valid (PAL) resolution is 480*576, not the opposite.

Note: will you realize a day that your H.263 video won't play in lot (perhaps all) of standalones ? Did you try yours ? (I didn't see that in your post, but you probably already said it).
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  #35  
02-25-2004, 03:45 PM
poerschr poerschr is offline
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Dialhot, you are really an annoying guy....I have tried for such a long time to keep everything professional, despite some bitter comments...

Do you think that I do not know that it is not a valid resolution??? It's called testing...I did not want to go as low as half DVD....

Man, you guys get on my back for not testing, and then you come back and ask me a question like did you try playing your video??? If you tested the H.263, if you followed your own advise, maybe you would already know the answer to your question...

oh, and I was never arguing anything...just reporting my findings...It's a shame that Sansgrip never allowed for invalid resolutions, for testing purposes...Does this mean that I don't like Sansgrip's filters?? Does this mean that I think Sansgrip knows more about video than I do?? Does this means that I don't like Sansgrip?? NO NO NO I think that when I say, it's a same - it is becasue I like all of the work that Sansgrip does and very gratefull for this great plugin, I wish that I could use it in my experiment...

I wish we would stop wasting time on these personal attacks....it does not seem to get us anywhere...We are all on the same side....I was trying to convery my findings, but you blew right past the most important information and went right to some comment about Sangrip's grip plugin that is not really that important.....It does not make any sense to me....

Does this post help us??? nope, not one frecking bit!!
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  #36  
02-25-2004, 03:54 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Notice how Phil is in a good mood today
Also notice that he never holds to him what he needs to say from his experiencing/testing/knowledge
You see, we don't discriminate newbies in the forum even because they may be very much experienced guys but have just found the forum.
We just like to feel that if someone tries something a bit out of specs, many testing is performed by everybody before saying that it's a major breakthrough or start using such a method by default.
For instance we all know that the majority of players support GOP size superior to 15/18 for (K)DVD.
But from much testing around we agreed to maintain the templates at 15/18 because we noticed from some reports how several standalones didn't like that.
But above all this, everybody tries to help everybody
Even if opinions on some subject don't match.
Cheers
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  #37  
02-25-2004, 04:07 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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Cool down Phil
And for future for you: when anybody mention again H.263 with FFVFW, it means "H.263 quantization type" not H.263 stream. Ok

In fact H.263 stream have no purpose, because of ... goto offtopic

Offtopic:
Now we have (still in beta produce) H264 format, which from my opinion (for now of course) isn't acceptable at all. But it is still only constant bitrate encoding, so no wonder

I've downloaded this TMPEG VBV version. I'll proceed to tests.
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  #38  
02-25-2004, 04:11 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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@Poerschr,
Hey, when I wrote my last post you still hadn't post your latest one.
I have to let you in on story about me and Phil.
We also started on the wrong foot when I started posting here.
The subject was about correct YV12 codec, which is obviously something that doesn't exist I needed a codec that I could use with tmpg and that would allow me to use avs 2.5x that uses YV12.
And even though I would swear that ffdshow was able to do the trick Phil always told me to install Nic's XviD codec.
In the end, as usual, Phil was right
Although I could tell you that ffdshow should be able to do the trick, but obviously not as efficiently as Nic's XviD.
In the process I read some sharp posts by Phil, but I completely understand it.
The man was right, he knew he was right, and there I was at his thread posting bull that I wasn't completly sure to be true in every case.
So everybody relax. Do some more testing.
Acknowledge that some of us don't hold things back when they have something to say.
Just don't nobody be rude.
Be cool
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  #39  
02-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Hydeus Hydeus is offline
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This TMPEG sets very strange 36 (72) VBV value, no mater what option is preffer But for VCD it should be enought. Sad that only for VCD.
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  #40  
02-25-2004, 05:25 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydeus
This TMPEG sets very strange 36 (72) VBV value, no mater what option is preffer But for VCD it should be enought. Sad that only for VCD.
Hi Hydeus,
Just to be sure: what value did BV report before using tmpg for fix? Did you have 7?
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