Quantcast Combing Effect Converting DV Video to DVD? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
05-22-2004, 02:45 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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Hi,

I have a KDVD template with audio part and those without audio as well for TMPGenc but there's a problem every time I try to make a KDVD from my home videos. I use PAL standard since I am from Europe. I use Pinnacle studio 9 for making and cutting a movie and leaving it in original DV format(full size and uncompressed). Then I use TMPGenc to make a PAL KDVD but I always get the combed video. Like interlaced video problems or whatever it is. Whenever there is movement in the video, there is the "combing" effect. On the cut and finished DV file or on the very original DV, there is no such problem. So something happens during conversion to KDVD that makes the video interlaced or deinterlaced or whatever it is that makes it annoyingly combed.

Otherwise the quality, sound and size would be great but the darn combing is ruining my day.

No mater which of "interlace" or "non interlaced" in the TMPGenc I use.

Any clues as to how to make KDVD that will not have this problem?
Anyone successfuly turning DV from digital camcorder into KDVDs using TMPGenc?

I read some older posts but nothing that would realy answer my question as to how to do this in practise was found.

I would really appreciate some help.
Thanks!
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  #2  
05-22-2004, 07:51 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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[quote="Bleeder"
No mater which of "interlace" or "non interlaced" in the TMPGenc I use.[quote]
1/ never use internal deinterlacer of tmpgenc. If you need one, use an avisynth script

2/ did you try to encode in mpeg2 interlaced ?
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  #3  
05-22-2004, 08:19 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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Hi,

basically I have the uncompressed DV video(mainconcept 2.04 codec) with PCM sound and several KDVD templates I got from P2P programs and this site.

For instance I have a template called KDVD Full D1 PAL that it says creates a MPEG2file and this template also has sound included. Video bitrate is set at 5000max, at 25fps, (720*576), 37.8 Mb MAX/min and sound at 48.000hz ,192 kbps, 2ch. I like the fact that this template has sound taken care. Otherwise the same problem happens with a template without sound-the usual full D1 KDVD template so it is not this template that's causing the problem.

When I import the DV (Mainconcept 2.04 codec) video after selecting this template, I have in the TMPGenc the following options as default:

-interlaced
-bottom field first(field B)
-4:3 625 PAL (704*576)

If I use this I get the combed video. If I put it on TV via TV out it's not completely horrible but visible in fast movements and annoying.

I also tried changing the
-interlaced
to
-non interlace

but I get the same result

I have MPEGenc version 2.58.44.152

Is there a simple way within the TMPGenc settings to take care of this? Or a special template?

Avisynth? I don't know how to use this yet since I just download the templates from the net and I'm a noob. Is it likely that I could fix this using Avisynth?

Otherwise I also get the same problems making SKVCD-obviously MPEG2 is problematic for me.

If I create MPEG1 there's no problem with combing but I guess combing is not a problem with MPEG1 anyway?

So in short. How can I-a noob with these things make MPEG2 that will not have this problem? I'm sure there are plenty guys out there trying to put their home DVs into KDVD and it would really be helpful if this issue was solved or a template made for it...

I appreciate the time you're taking to help everyone and me.
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  #4  
05-22-2004, 09:38 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeder
For instance I have a template called KDVD Full D1 PAL that it says creates a MPEG2file and this template also has sound included.
I don't now where you found it but there is NO official tempalte that include it. So this is a modifed one and no one can tell what else was modified

Quote:
Otherwise the same problem happens with a template without sound-the usual full D1 KDVD template so it is not this template that's causing the problem.
None of the template encode in interlaced. FYI.

Quote:
I also tried changing the
-interlaced
to
-non interlace
Where ? In the source or the destination ???

Quote:
but I get the same result
Do you resieze your video whle encodign or does the source the same res than the destination ?

Quote:
Is there a simple way within the TMPGenc settings to take care of this?
NO ! You will need a script !

Quote:
Is it likely that I could fix this using Avisynth?
It will be far easier / better / convenient.

Quote:
If I create MPEG1 there's no problem with combing but I guess combing is not a problem with MPEG1 anyway?
That is strange because because mpeg1 is progressive only.

Quote:
So in short. How can I-a noob with these things make MPEG2 that will not have this problem? I'm sure there are plenty guys out there trying to put their home DVs into KDVD and it would really be helpful if this issue was solved or a template made for it...
They use scripts...
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  #5  
05-22-2004, 09:58 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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-I found it on DC++

-I use te template downloaded from this site and it's the same.
I set the interlace or non interlace in the source.

Can it be set in the destination? This would probably fix it if it was possible to set for the destination.

-resolution stays the same. It says at the source 704*576

I will also take a look at how avisynth works. Is there a speciddic thing you know of in sdvance I should do with avisynth specifficaly for this problem?

I now remembered that I also set once to non interlace in the expert settings-for MPEG which I assume is for destination?

I will also try that again.
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  #6  
05-22-2004, 01:14 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeder
-I found it on DC++
That is a p2p software and there is nothing good to take on such underground place. As you can see, even the sligtest KVCD template is (a little) crappy.

Quote:
-I use te template downloaded from this site and it's the same.
I set the interlace or non interlace in the source.
You have to put interlaced in BOTH source AND target.

Quote:
Can it be set in the destination? This would probably fix it if it was possible to set for the destination.
Yes it is, in the first tab of tmpeng settings, while you can change it for source in the second tab.

Quote:
-resolution stays the same. It says at the source 704*576
Okay. Because resizing in interlaced mode need special work that tmpgenc can't do by itlsef !

Quote:
I will also take a look at how avisynth works. Is there a speciddic thing you know of in sdvance I should do with avisynth specifficaly for this problem?
First learn how to use a script, then ask for help from Incredible

Quote:
I now remembered that I also set once to non interlace in the expert settings-for MPEG which I assume is for destination?
I will also try that again.
If in the first tab, Yes it is.
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  #7  
05-23-2004, 01:32 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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:P

Hey. For some strange reason, the roblem stopped after a while and running some other apps like watching a divx movie,,,. and I also uograded to latest version of TMPGenc...

Anyway it just started working OK. And sometimes you just need to reboot the machine to get it to it's senses-yes even XPs,..

And now it works flawlessly! KDVDs, SKVCDs,.. with sound in one single move with that template. Sound is of good quality too. So it's realy a good template.

I can send them to you if you want to have a llook at them and maybe post them here as well. It's realy great for noobs like me and many people are just that.

The quality is great. About 40 minutes of highest quality video with sound took 1.3 Gigabytes. So basically it's about 2 hours of top quality with sound on one DVD. Even half D1 is still great.

Anyways, anyone interested in these templates can mail me at:

kmecka@primorska.com

Thanks again for all your tips and the time.
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  #8  
05-23-2004, 01:37 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeder
So basically it's about 2 hours of top quality with sound on one DVD. Even half D1 is still great.
Sorry Bleeder, but that's WAY below our standards
We usually put ~10 hours on one DVD at half D-1, and about ~6+ hours at 704x480 on one DVD.
So 2 hours on one DVD is really very low, and that's NOT KDVD

-kwag
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  #9  
05-23-2004, 01:47 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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Whoa! Most guys I know are thrilled with prospects of 2 hours.

Where exactly can I download the appropriate template from this site?

I mean for noobs. Like the kind you just throw into TMPGenc? Or is such user friendlyness dispised ammong you pros?
Do you guys have those on this site? It would help "slow" folks like me a lot.


Which template would be best for DV? 6 hours of full D1 sounds very nice

At the same time-to cut things short:
Obciously your templates would require separate sound editing.
I take the Wav out with Virtualdub and do what with it?
Which program and to which format do I put it in?

Do I attach it to video in TMPGenc during conversion to KDVD or afterwards in the end?

OK I tried again your templates on a 217 Mb uncompressed sample (1 munite approx). If I use your KDVD template it is 34.1 Mb large(I only had to shange settings in TMPG to 4:3 display because in default it was 16:9).

If I use the template with sound it makes 4:3 by default(and in general other video settings including bitrate are same as your template) and I get 36.9Mb but with sound.

Anyway:
this is the template

object TMPEGConfigFile
MPEG.Text = ''
MPEG.WizardCategoryName = ''
MPEG.WizardSubFormatName = ''
MPEG.WizardCaption = ''
MPEG.WizardDescription = ''
MPEG.WizardTargetMedia = MPEGConfig_TargetMediaType_Unknown
MPEG.WizardAutoCalcVideoBitRate = False
MPEG.WizardAutoChooseList.EnableVideoSize = False
MPEG.WizardAutoChooseList.VideoSize = <>
MPEG.WizardAutoChooseList.EnableVideoGOP = False
MPEG.WizardAutoChooseList.VideoGOP = <>
MPEG.OutputStreamType = MPEG_OutputStreamType_System_VideoAudio
MPEG.OutputStreamType_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.StreamType = MPEGVideoEncoder_StreamType_MPEG2
MPEG.Video.StreamType_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.Width = 720
MPEG.Video.Width_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.Height = 576
MPEG.Video.Height_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.YUVFormat = 1
MPEG.Video.YUVFormat_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.DC_prec = 2
MPEG.Video.DC_prec_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.VideoEncodeMode = MPEGVideoEncoder_VideoEncodeMode_Interlace
MPEG.Video.VideoEncodeMode_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.FrameRate = 3
MPEG.Video.FrameRate_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.AspectRatio = 2
MPEG.Video.AspectRatio_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.RateControlMode = MPEGVideoEncoder_RateControlMode_CQ
MPEG.Video.RateControlMode_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.MaxBitRate = 0
MPEG.Video.MaxBitRate_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.MinBitRate = 0
MPEG.Video.MinBitRate_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.MinAvgBitRate = 0
MPEG.Video.MinAvgBitRate_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.CBR_BitRate = 7000000
MPEG.Video.VBR_MultipassVBRAlgorithm = MPEGVideoEncoder_MultipassVBRAlgorithm_MultipassCQ
MPEG.Video.VBR_AvgBitRate = 7000000
MPEG.Video.VBR_MaxBitRate = 8000000
MPEG.Video.VBR_MinBitRate = 2000000
MPEG.Video.VBR_MaxPassCount = 2
MPEG.Video.VBR_Quality_P = 0
MPEG.Video.VBR_Quality_B = 20
MPEG.Video.VBR_EnablePadding = False
MPEG.Video.MVBR_MaxBitRate = 8000000
MPEG.Video.MVBR_MinBitRate = 2000000
MPEG.Video.MVBR_Quality_P = 0
MPEG.Video.MVBR_Quality_B = 20
MPEG.Video.MVBR_EnablePadding = False
MPEG.Video.AVBR_Quality = 50
MPEG.Video.AVBR_MaxBitRate = 8000000
MPEG.Video.AVBR_MinBitRate = 2000000
MPEG.Video.AVBR_EnablePadding = False
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality = 70
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality_P = 0
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality_B = 20
MPEG.Video.CQ_MaxBitRate = 5000000
MPEG.Video.CQ_MinBitRate = 300000
MPEG.Video.CQ_EnablePadding = True
MPEG.Video.VBVBufferSize = 229376
MPEG.Video.VBVBufferSize_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_SeqHeaderInterval = 1
MPEG.Video.GOP_SeqHeaderInterval_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_I_FrameCount = 1
MPEG.Video.GOP_I_FrameCount_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_P_FrameCount = 5823
MPEG.Video.GOP_P_FrameCount_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_B_FrameCount = 3
MPEG.Video.GOP_B_FrameCount_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_BitStreamForEdit = True
MPEG.Video.GOP_BitStreamForEdit_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.GOP_MaxFrameCount = 15
MPEG.Video.GOP_MaxFrameCount_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMatrix_Intra_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMatrix_NonIntra_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.Profile = 4
MPEG.Video.Profile_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.Level = 8
MPEG.Video.Level_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.VideoFormat = 1
MPEG.Video.VideoFormat_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.DisplayWidth = 0
MPEG.Video.DisplayWidth_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.DisplayHeight = 0
MPEG.Video.DisplayHeight_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Video.MotionSearchSpeed = MPEGVideoEncoder_MotionSearchSpeed_Normal
MPEG.Video.MotionSearch_AlwaysHalfPel = True
MPEG.Video.UseFloatDCT = True
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMode = True
MPEG.Video.QuantizeModeVal_Intra = 0
MPEG.Video.QuantizeModeVal_NonIntra = 0
MPEG.Video.YUVBasicYCbCr = True
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMatrix_Intra = {
081013161A1B1D221013161A1B1D222513161A1B1D22252616 1A1B1F24252628
1A1B1D24272628301B1D22252628303A1D22252628303A4522 252628303A454F}
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMatrix_NonIntra = {
10121416181A1C1E121416181A1C1E201416181A1C1E202216 181A1E20202224
181A1C20222224261A1C1E20222426281C1E202224262A2A1E 20222426282A2C}
MPEG.Audio.StreamType = MPEGAudioEncoder_StreamType_MPEG1_Layer2
MPEG.Audio.StreamType_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.SamplingFrequency = 48000
MPEG.Audio.SamplingFrequency_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.ChannelMode = 0
MPEG.Audio.ChannelMode_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.CantUseMono = False
MPEG.Audio.BitRate = 192000
MPEG.Audio.BitRate_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.CalcCRC = False
MPEG.Audio.CalcCRC_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.OriginalFlag = False
MPEG.Audio.OriginalFlag_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.CopyrightFlag = False
MPEG.Audio.CopyrightFlag_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.PrivateFlag = False
MPEG.Audio.PrivateFlag_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.Audio.EmphasisType = 0
MPEG.Audio.EmphasisType_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.System.StreamType = MPEGSystemEncoder_StreamType_MPEG2_Program
MPEG.System.StreamType_ReadOnly = False
MPEG.System.EnableCommentText = False
MPEG.System.CommentText = ''
end
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  #10  
05-23-2004, 02:40 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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By the way, I can also paste the NTSC templates with sound and also for KVCD and SKVCD if you like.

Pleaso comment this template and if this one can be improved to get more video on.

Anyway, what's the best thing to do
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  #11  
05-23-2004, 08:47 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
So 2 hours on one DVD is really very low, and that's NOT
In fact, that is nothing more than standard DVD.
Read on your DVD-R box : 4.7GB or 120 min.
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  #12  
05-23-2004, 09:00 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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I only "overflew" this Thread and a suggestion is:

DV Home Videos are always "Bottom Filed first" and interlaced.
So in TmpgEnc you have to choose "interlaced" and bottom filed first" and encoding at mpeg2 as its the only one which supports interlaced encoding.

And ... You wont get good results if encoding interlaced sources in an interlaced mode when using very low avg bitartes are used, even in case of kDVD Templates. As interlaced encodings generally need MUCH MORE Bitrate.. cause of fieldbased encoding. If you dont respect that ... fast moving parts/Scenes will end up block very fast!

My recommandeation: Use avisynth on your source and choose a good deinterlacer like DgBob() etc. and set it to fieldorder Bottomfield first when it performs the deinterlacing job!
Then you can encode at lower bitrates and gain from kVCD templates.
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  #13  
05-23-2004, 09:15 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeder
Where exactly can I download the appropriate template from this site?
http://www.kvcd.net/dvd-models.html

Note : to reach our limits you will need to use a script. Without that the limit is more 6 hours in 1/2 DVD and 4 hours in full-frame.

Quote:
Obciously your templates would require separate sound editing.
That's not the templates, and that's not a requirement. That is OUR choice to claim for a separate audio process in order to obtain the best quality.
Audio processing is possible with tmpgenc but the quality is way below. But if you want to activate it, you can load the template and simply chose "ES(audio+video)" insteed of "ES(video)" in the main window of tmpgenc. And of course you have to provide an audio source.

Quote:
I take the Wav out with Virtualdub and do what with it?
Which program and to which format do I put it in?
besweet or headac3che.
Go there : http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2553

Quote:
Do I attach it to video in TMPGenc during conversion to KDVD or afterwards in the end?
DVD need to be authored. Authoring tools handle better the audio and the video appart. So you don't have to mux them. Just keep your video file (m2v) and audio file (mp2 or ac3) and feed the authoring program with that.

Wich tool do you use to author your DVD ?

Quote:
If I use the template with sound it makes 4:3 by default(and in general other video settings including bitrate are same as your template) and I get 36.9Mb but with sound.
Size is irrelevant. Compare QUALITY.

Quote:
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality = 70
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality_P = 0
MPEG.Video.CQ_Quality_B = 20
This template use a B-spoilage of 20. I used to do that a long time ago because it seems to give smaller files. But in fact the quality in the movement suffer a lot from that and I didn't see this in the first place.

Quote:
MPEG.Video.GOP_B_FrameCount = 3
THREE B-frame ? Plus a B-spoilage.... Whaow... I have to see that once in my life.

Quote:
MPEG.Video.MotionSearchSpeed = MPEGVideoEncoder_MotionSearchSpeed_Normal
MPEGVideoEncoder_MotionSearchSpeed_Slow is a lot better in quality, and MPEGVideoEncoder_MotionSearchSpeed_Motion_Estimate is a lot faster for the same quality than "normal".

Quote:
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMode = True
MPEG.Video.QuantizeModeVal_Intra = 0
MPEG.Video.QuantizeModeVal_NonIntra = 0
The guy that modifies this template really knew NOTHING to what he was doing. He activates the "soften block noise feature" (that is REALLY bad) but... let the parameters to 0 ! That means that you are losing time doing something that do... nothing.

Quote:
MPEG.Video.YUVBasicYCbCr = True
Here again, that is a complete NONSENSE
Outputting in real YCbCr leads to nothing but a bigger file with no gain at all.

Quote:
MPEG.Video.QuantizeMatrix_Intra = {
081013161A1B1D221013161A1B1D222513161A1B1D22252616 1A1B1F24252628
1A1B1D24272628301B1D22252628303A1D22252628303A4522 252628303A454F}
This is perhaps the old KVCD matrix but not the last KVCD-Notch.

are you sure this is not a MVCD template ?

Quote:
MPEG.Audio.BitRate = 192000
Audio is done at 192 where external tool will give you excellent quality with 128. You are loosing space.

Do you know the name of the guy that pretend that THIS is KDVD template ?
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  #14  
05-23-2004, 09:28 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
are you sure this is not a MVCD template ?
To be answered by a person who knows that: NO


Well in the state MVCD Templates are now! : ... slow at M.estim. is choosen and NO soften Blocknoise!
Related to the used Matrix above ... I cant give a statement as it is shown as HEX Values.

So that one above "could" be the first MVCD Template (which I dont know), but I shurely assume that this is a "selfmade" stunt Template from someone else.

A gain from Rocs and my templates is for example that they only need standard Gops to archive same good quality (1-4-2 PAL , 1-5-2 NTSC), that was one purpose for archiving max. compatibility with sensible "totally in love with standard" Standalone Players.
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  #15  
05-23-2004, 09:33 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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Thanks for your detailed answer.

I don't have a clue about who the author is nor how old it is. And since I'm a noob I didn't have a clue about this being a usual DVD..

It's a good thing that I asked you guys to help. Maybe this even is a MVCD since the Rar file I downloaded also had some MVCD stuff in it,..

Do you think you could edit a template on your site also for DVs? Or recommend to me what to do?

Also for Avisynth. What would be the recommendations for home DV?
For the best quality/size ratio? Or has someone already made a good script for this?

About authoring. What's the best program for this?
I will compress video and sound separately and feed ithe authoring video and sound separately.
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  #16  
05-23-2004, 09:40 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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You may want to check out the optimal script for DVD sources in the 'Optimal scripts' forum. Also see SansGrip's Avisynth basics guide.

For deinterlacing, I suggest KernelDeint(order=0,threshold=5,sharp=true) as the source is probably pure interlaced video. Place this line right after the line which loads your source.

You'll find all the plugins you need at http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises . You'll also need Avisynth 2.5x, which can be found at http://www.avisynth.org .
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  #17  
05-23-2004, 10:36 AM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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How is this script ? http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....4081d4ed1bb00b


And what exactly do I need to do?
Di I put that entire text into a text file and rename it's ending to avs?
Fo I open it with TMPGenc?

I', kinda confused but I think I will understand this soon.
I downloaded all the filters and extracted them to plugin folder of avisynth 2.08.

I'm kinda stuck now not knowihng how to realy proceed.
Can someone tell me what exactly to paste (for instance from the script in the link above) into a text file?

Also is that even for PAL? If not, what needs to be changed and where..
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  #18  
05-23-2004, 10:52 AM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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I suggest you check some of the guides on the forum. They'll walk you through the process and you'll probably learn a lot better that way.

The most important thing is to ditch AVS2.08 and download 2.5x (2.54 is the latest official version). Remove all the 2.0x plugins from your plugins folder and download the 2.5-compatible ones.
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  #19  
05-23-2004, 12:07 PM
Bleeder Bleeder is offline
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OK thanks.


By the way, in the meantime I am trying KWAGs template for KDVDs from this site and I added the audio part from the template I had but changed the bitrate to 128from 192 to see what happens and will compare then.


I have now created the following script -

# Gener
Sourcefile="D:\New Folder\Untitled.avi"

avisource(Sourcefile)

SmoothDeinterlace(tff=false, doublerate=true, blend=false)

converttoyv12()

Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max =3,variance=0.1,seed=1)
Convolution3D(1, 6, 12, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)

GripCrop(544, 480, overscan=2, source_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="LanczosResize")
Undot()
TemporalSoften(2,7,7,3,2)
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)

What do I do in Virtualdub with this script? Or anywhere for that matter?
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05-23-2004, 12:38 PM
Boulder Boulder is offline
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That's Dialhot's optimal AVI script v4, or at least a part of it.

Search this board for the download link for GripFit (includes GripCrop,GripSize and GripBorders) ..sorry, can't be more specific as I don't remember where it is. I suppose incredible's got it on his webspace.

BlindPP is included in MPEG2DEC3.dll.

I suggest you replace the SmoothDeinterlacer line with the KernelDeint line I gave earlier. It's faster and should give a sharper picture as well, it's also recommended as the best one of pure interlaced video content.
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