I like F1, and you?
 

2005 Constructors Championship

Pos after Silverstone Grand Prix

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2005 Constructors Championship

Pos Constructor Points (after Silverstone Grand Prix)

1 Renault 102

2 McLaren-Mercedes 87

3 Ferrari 74

4 Toyota 54

5 Williams-BMW 47

6 Red Bull Racing 22

7 Sauber-Petronas 13

8 Jordan-Toyota 11

9 BAR-Honda 9

10 Minardi-Cosworth 7

2005 Drivers Championship

1 Fernando Alonso Spanish Renault 77

2 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish McLaren-Mercedes 51

3 Michael Schumacher German Ferrari 43

4 Rubens Barrichello Brazilian Ferrari 31

4= Jarno Trulli Italian Toyota 31

6 Juan Pablo Montoya Colombian McLaren-Mercedes 26

7 Giancarlo Fisichella Italian Renault 25

7= Nick Heidfeld German Williams-BMW 25

9 Ralf Schumacher German Toyota 23

10 Mark Webber Australian Williams-BMW 22

11 David Coulthard British Red Bull Racing 17

12 Jenson Button British BAR-Honda 9

13 Felipe Massa Brazilian Sauber-Petronas 7

14 Tiago Monteiro Portuguese Jordan-Toyota 6

14= Alexander Wurz Austrian McLaren-Mercedes 6

14= Jacques Villeneuve Canadian Sauber-Petronas 6

17 Narain Karthikeyan Indian Jordan-Toyota 5

18 Christijan Albers Dutch Minardi-Cosworth 4

18= Pedro de la Rosa Spanish McLaren-Mercedes 4

18= Christian Klien Austrian Red Bull Racing 4

21 Patrick Friesacher Austrian Minardi-Cosworth 3

22 Vitantonio Liuzzi Italian Red Bull Racing 1

What do you think is the better design:

Me:

1 - McLaren
2 - Toyota
3 - Renault, Sauber and Jordan.

I love F1, I was going to make a post about it myself I missed the French Grand Prix and the re-runs which I am gutted as the French GP is one of my favourite tracks, I was wondering if there were any VOD sites where I could get the highlights streamed to me for a small fee?

Btw for me the best designs are:

1 - McLaren
2 - BMW Williams
3 - Renault
4 - Toyota
5 - Red Bull
6 - Sauber

This year's F1 has been the best in ages, no longer can I call it the Michael Schumacher Show like the last few years were boring watching him win almost every race, this year it is a lot better (except of course USA Indianapolis which was a farce).

Finally this year the top racers look more evenly matched.

My favourite Driver is Juan Pablo Montoya he is a natural born racer who reminds me of the old drivers who pushed to the edge.

EDIT: Also this season I like Giancarlo Fisichella he is having a great season at Renault and racing extremely well.

He has to much bad lucky this season. :(

BTW, is Silverstone near your home?

Maybe you know Grand Prix 4 game.
Here you can find out last spanish GP4 mod, with tracks, pilots, teams, cars, etc. updated until 2005 season.
Audio is in spanish, sorry.
With this game you can learn tracks as never you did imagine.

tell me about it, I feel sorry for him as he is having a great season.

I wish. :D No unfortunately not, it is quite far away from where I live I would love to go there one time though to watch a race live and soak up the atmosphere.

Yeah I have Grand Prix 4 and I love this game it is fantastic.

In fact I still have all Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix games, I even have the original first game on PC & my old Commodore Amiga A1200.

GP4 is fantastic and is a great improvement over GP3, i'm hoping they release a GP5 sometime in the future.

I love playing it online against friends although to be honest I haven't played it in nearly a year i've been too busy. :(

That mod sounds cool though.

Btw Pro who are your favourite drivers this year?

Fernando Alonso
Kimi Räikkönen
Jarno Trulli

hello,

I like formula 1, too.
2005 is a great year, but 2003 wasn't that bad, neither.
in fact, 2004 and 2002 are the worst years of formula 1 story (except if you're a schumacher fan), but the others are great.
my favourite gp is indianapolis :lol:
no, I like spa-francorchamps track.
and for gp3, I really love to push up my car on Imola, in Acque mineralli, from 6th to 2th in a few seconds. 8)

I like those drivers also especially Alonso what a season he is having at Renault, looks like he is on course to be World Champion. I hope he does it as he really deserves to after such a great season.

Hi Jason, I agree with you on most points except this year's Indianapolis as this year's race was a farce.

Gp3 is a great game also it is great to test those circuits and see how much you can push to get the best lap record.

I think it was a Jason's joke.

Too many things to say about F1, so I will try to expose them by points :lol:.
1-I've been a big fan never loosing a single TV broadcast since I was...7 years old. That goes back to...~1980.
2-Since 1991 I have lost more than 50% of joy that I used to have when I watched a GP.
Reasons for that? Max Mosley and Ca that like to run a show using "their" rules instead of the "drivers" rules.
Of course he was pushed by public oppinion due to Senna/Ratzenberg deaths, but actually that has almost killed F1 true spirit...
3-Never really liked Michael Shumacher "as a person".
4-Consider Michael Schumacher the best F1 driver of all times, period.
5-Always loved Brabham (due to N. Piquet) and especially Ferrari.
6-Number 27 is my lucky number :lol: and I really liked Gilles agressiveness on the tracks.
I will never forget him against Arnoux for those last 6 laps...
7-Indianapolis '05 was not a farse: F1 '91..'05 is a farse!
7b-Those that did not race, just didn't because they just felt like not doing it.
Nothing could have been done by the FIA to prevent this.
7c-Guilty part: Michelin&Teams&Drivers. Victims: spectators all around the world especially the Americans.
7d-I know, I know, it was all in the name of safety. But are you telling me that F1 is supposed to be a safe sport???
We want as safe as it can get but it must not interfere with the real purpose of F1.
Safety would have been achieved by running the Michelin cars slower than usual on the big banking.
7d.1-Let's not forget that both Ferraris have gone much slower than usual on several '05 GPs just because tyres didn't allow it.
This way they did finish some races grabbed some points and even scared the hell out of Mr. Alonso for several occasions.
7d.2-Rules also apply to Michelin runners.
But rules seem to fade away when you're talking about 14 cars.
Watching the tables I can't see any loss of points on those teams/drivers that did not run in USA GP.
Why?...
We know that FIA will meet again to discuss this matter but it will be in September.
By then they have lost the momentum to punish anyone.
Who am I cheering this year?
For sure not Mr. Alonso.
This year I chose to support Tiago@Jordan.
Small note: this weekend I saw 5 finger on Alonso's hands.
Curious because I have never ever seen seven fingers on Schumacher's hands :roll:.
Medium note: there are only two active F1 world championship winners (well driving an F1) in activity, Schummy and Jacques.
Very big note: the above sentences should not be seen as an offense to noone. I have nothing against Spain or the Spanish people! Actually, on the contrary ;-)
I just don't like Alonso's attitude - or JPM's attitude for what it's worth.
I can't forget (last years' ?) Monaco GP episode under safety car :x
Two little things for everybody to think: how many "real" overtaking have we seen last weekend? :? and how many "real" overtaking will we see next weekend? :? Zip, rien, niente, nada!
Do you want to see some real racing? Then watch GP2!
I mean this is crazy...F1 is not delivering it's purpose and we can see lower categories that can...
My rules package for next year's F1 season:
- increase the wings/downforce by 30%. Cars are easier to drive and safer when they have downforce.
- reinstate 1500cc turbo engines with a 1.0bar pop-off valve furnished by FIA as an alternative to regular engines.
- reinstate slick tyres much safer than grooved tyres.
- remove automatic gearboxes and launch control mechanisms.
- remove traction control; I want to see cars slidding again -> then we'll see who is more...gifted :D
- actually remove all electronic parts except the engine electronics.
- oblige all teams to broadcast on TV all their car<->box communications.
- permit as many tyres per weekend/race as needed! that shall be much safer then what we have now.
And it eliminates any doubts if the driver is allowed or not to change a tyre without being penalised. Look at Raikonen...
- oblige any car to stop no more than twice per GP to refuel. This shall make the cars much heavier/slower and possibly safer.
- FIA could think of creating a rear wing that would allow overtaking easier.
Back on subject.
Best good looking car? Ferrari -> honestly ...
Best car this year? McLaren or Ferrari -> not quite sure because they don't run on the same tyres but I could almost swear it's still Ferrari.
Best package? Alonso/Renault/Michelin.

And Jean Alesi .... ? :lol:
F1 is not a safe sport but everything is done to keep it at the safest. And running with potentialy problematic tyres is not the safest. You can't force a pilot to run a car in these conditions. Or you are a potentially murdurer.

It's easy to tell Michelin is guilty because nobody died this day. But who would have took the guilty part in case of race and final death(es) ?

Are you a Michelin engineer ?
Do you think they adviced the teams to not run the race because they were too lazy to implement a safety procedure ?
The tyre exploded with no reason. If 'too fast speed' has been the reason, then the solution would have be easy to find and use.

Note: and I'm not sure you consider how much money each team spent uselessly that week-end. You can be sure that they didn't decide to drop the race just to please Michelin.

They didn't gain any point either (of course, as they did not race). Does the FIA rules say that they should also loose some previously gained points ? I mean, are you forced to race even if you don't want to ?

You BET he is on my top 10 favorite drivers :D.
Perhaps he is/was the best driver of all times under wet conditions 8).
Besides Jean drove the 27 for many years.
Maybe one of the most exciting drivers for the last 15 years.
He always made me remember Gilles, pushing and pushing and pushing.
Thumbs up for Jean :P

Under which conditions, Phil?
We knew that the tyres had problems.
From the FIA statements, and from Charlie Whitings statements we are forced to believe that it would be ok to use those tyres.
Right now I can't find the links but I shall send them to you.
You don't think that Max would want any of the boys injured, do you?

No, it's not easy to come to such a conclusion.
As a matter of fact I know too many people that think quite the opposite, that is, that the FIA is the guilty party of such an incident.
They even share the same idea that the FIA should have forgotten about the rulings and that should have let the Michelin teams use tyres that had just arrived on Sunday.
What can I say? Tyres that weren't even tested at that time.....
Guilty for death(s)? I can't remember anyone claiming blame for any driver death. Not even in Senna's case - simply using this one to express myself, I don't want to talk about that episode.

No I'm not. I'm using the FIA press releases to take a position over this matter as I already said.
Contraditions between what the FIA stated and what Michelin (didn't) say but that almost everybody wants to believe.
Are you a Michelin engineer? What makes you so sure that they didn't screw-up on the factory and that they knew it all the time?
But one thing I know: Michelin wanted to have a chicane just before the begining of the banking. If that's not assuming that the problem was speed then I don't know anything else :twisted:.

Noone ever wants to please anybody on F1.
They didn't race because they had a press release from Michelin saying that it was unsafe.
Pick it from there and tell me that you would force any driver to race if you were a team manager -> I'm not refering to teams, I'm refering to drivers.

Go read the (forum) rules again Phil :lol:.
You f*** up the show, you pay it.
Usually the teams are sanctioned with a fee and loss of points.
Please note that I wasn't refering to drivers loosing points.
I was refering to teams loosing points.
But that's my fault because I used the expression "14 drivers" when I should have written 6 teams.
Shall I name a few? McLaren, Renault, Williams, etc...
Too many too big names here to do something like removing some points, right?
And yes, the rules say that you have to race otherwise you suffer the consequences.
Otherwise they wouldn't have started the race for the opening lap.
The rules are the rules wether they apply for 1 driver, one team or 6 teams or even only 3 teams.
But beyhond that, the worst thing is that I can hear everybody blaming the FIA or Ferrari/Jordan/Minardi for something they can't be blamed.
They don't build tyres...
But spectators don't have to watch a race between 6 cars instead of 20.
Spectators buy tickets to see 20 cars starting the race.
Otherwise close down FIA F1 championship.
I don't care too much, I hate watching 1,5h with 2 or 3 real overtakes and usually half of them are due when the lights turn green...

I have to agree with Dialhot on that .
I was really angry against michelin, but I thought a little about it, and I realized that they were very brave to do that.
F1 is not a sport, it's a business, the teams have partners, sponsor, there reputation, and they just can't afford to stop the race.
but they did it, and if they did it, believe they had very good reasons.
f1 is not a safe sport, but there's a difference between driving at 300 mph and telling your drivers their tyres may gonna explodes after 10 run...
And the drivers all wanted to drive.
some of them even wanted to drive without gaining any points.
The FIA is not placed to say "rules are rules, and that's all".
Max Mosley (he wasn't on the track, did he think it wasn't so important ?) lives in Monaco because he doesn't want to have problems with Europeans laws.
In 1994, a chicane was added on the track of Spa, why not at Indy ?
In 1993, when Williams-Renault made that terrible mistake ( they just forgot to register for the championship), the rules forced them to require the universal assent of the others teams.
what do you think Mosley did ? "forget about the rules, you're registered, and that all. don't do it again."
and what about 1999, with the deflectors case ?
what about schumacher on the yellow line at Monaco 2005 ?
he wasn't punished, did he ?
the solution of the FIA : "drive slowly", was just stupid and dangerous : 6 cars driving at 250 mph and 14 driving at less than 100 mph ?
well.

Jason buddy, too many things that I haven't understand in your post.
Anyway here goes:
You got me on this one. I honestly can't remember it.
Can you elaborate a bit more on what happened?
Maybe that way I can remember.
I promisse I will investigate.
What deflectors case? The FIA clearly exposed why they did nothing to stop those deflectors. These were not mentioned in the rules, therefore the teams could and should use them in case they were more performant.
One thing is when the rules clearly state something and teams just don't abide by these rules.
Another thing is when rules don't mention one possibility.
In that case teams should check if that possibility would enable them to be faster then without it.
Let's not get confused with these issues.
Just what yellow line? I can't remember anything yellow on that track...
Exiting the pits you mean? Could you be a little more specific?
From Monaco all I can remember is 1 or 2 years ago Michael was in 1st place with the safety car ahead and JPM behind.
Suddenly he was out of the race having been pushed out by JPM under yellow. Racing incident? what? kidding me? isn't yellow supposed to maintain cars slowly on track?
Punishment for JPM? Never seen one being applied because of that event.
You can say that Michael was champion in his 1st year by having pushed Damon. But that was probably a race incident as it was not under yellow and they were fighting for a position.
It is my honest oppinion that Damon was right and that Michael pushed him out of the track when he saw that he would loose the championship.
Appart from that let me remind you that Michael was champion in that year with a Benetton-Ford against Damon in a Williams-Renault.
The power difference was measured in more than 80 horse power for the Williams-Renault. That means that Damon should have easily won the championship with let's say 5 races to go.
So before blaming Michael he can go blaming himself for not being half the driver that his father was...
Can't exactly recall that chicane was the one I'm thinking or not.
I remember one year they put a chicane to slow down every car not only one or two or 14 cars.
That was in the safety interest of all drivers.
And that was after a GPDA meeting before the race when all drivers agreed that they wouldn't run if such chicane would be built.
And it wasn't built overnight.
They asked for that on thursday when they arrived and they had free practice and qualifying to see if it would work.
Bottom line it was in the best interest of all drivers and not just 14 out of 20!
Anyway from Spa all I can remember is David Coulthard almost stoping on the track and Michael running into him.
Telemetry clearly stated that David hadn't braked but telemetry also stated that David was pushing and that suddenly he took his foot of the gas pedal for no apparent reason slowing the car in more the 80KPM.
Now, why would he do that if had no malfunction in the car?
Anybody loosing points here? Nobody except Michael :lol:.
You gotta be kidding.So we go back to the begining. Who is to take blame for what happened at Indy? FIA? Ferrari? Or simply put Michelin?
No matter what we may say or write here there is simply one guilty party for the incidents at Indy and that is Michelin.
The victims were the spectators that saw a, what was it? Farse? Yes a farse going on just because when you tell the drivers that after 10 laps they may die out of a crash they just don't race and I can't blame them for that.
So for me it's hard not easy to point Michelin but I have to be honest and say that if someone was guilty then that someone was Michelin.
Should FIA allow them to run with tyres that had arrived on Sunday morning and that noone could say if they were better or worse than the original?
No! that would be opening up precedent and the Bridgestone teams would have asked for the same one or 2 races after if they saw that the chosen tyre package was not performant.
Bottom line: F1 will always be a dangerous sport.
The parties involved in such sport have the responsability of making it as safe as possible for all and even for spectators.
But let's just not kill the spirit of the sport that is to try and make the fastest among all out there.
What we have seen is that no matter what measures will be used by FIA to make the cars slower that will only work for half a season.
So make them suffer more to make the cars faster.
More downforce to make them more reliable in the corners without traction control but at the same time heavier so that they are not as fast as they are now in the straights due to heavy fuel load.
More downforce means more control behind the next car too so more overtaking.
At the same time let's try to make it so F1 remains the most interesting speed championship because otherwise people will move on to GP2, Champcar or anything else.

Reactions taken at the press-room from the top 3 drivers at the end of the Silverstone GP today.
See what I mean?...
What the hell is FIA waiting for?
Waiting that millions of spectators loose interest in the sport?
A sport can only be a great sport if it's seen by many.
All of you, please bear in mind that we've been hearing drivers' quotes with these exact same words ever since
those tragic moments in Italy some years ago.
Drivers always said that the sport needed more safety measures but that it didn't need less downforce to achieve that.
Otherwise we'd be better watching 50cc karting races :?
Cheers

I agree with all those points. :D

Here I don't agree sure Michelin and the Teams and the FIA with all their BS politics are to blame. Michelin held their hands up and admitted they made a mistake, they refunded eveyone who bought tickets which ran into millions of dollors/

You can NOT blame the drivers, I don't know how your races are broadcasted where you live but here in the U.K every single Michelin Driver wanted to race and thought it was totally ridiculous that they were not allowed to do their job. Like you say ultimately the poor fans both at the stadium and worldwide TV viewers suffered. :(

Yeah it is not suppose to be a safe sport but there must be some degree of safety as we can't have drivers dying left, right and centre.

Yeah but you can't expect the majority of racers to run slow as it is not in their nature to do so it goes against every fibre in their being and would have been just as boring for us to watch.

I agree here.

Hmm, I think you are being rather harsh on Alonso. He is a great racer. Sure I know he has a great car beneath him but he deserves to be where he is this year. He has a very old head on such young shoulders and has showed a maturity in his smoothness and driving abilities as a driver many years his senior, I for one hope he wins it and becomes the youngest to do so.

For me this season Alonso and Juan Pablo Montoya are true racers just like the old style racers. I mean look at the British GP last wekend. Alonso fancied his chances of catching Montoya now that is what I call racers.

Also Montoya's leap from the grid was awesome, I felt sorry for him in the French GP with his car's failure as he would have got a podium place.

Kimi Räikkönen, Giancarlo Fisichella & Jenson Button are also great racers and not forgetting Mr Schumacher. I feel sorry for Fisichella he has had such bad luck and stalled his car in two consecutive races in the pit-stop even though the cars are suppose to have an anti-stall device especially when he was twice in contention for a good position even a podium place.

Also I think this is unfair also, as a F1 fan you should know the problems faced with overtaking especially with high speed tracks, the turbulence caused by the downforce these cars produce make it next to impossible most times to get close enough to pass a rival. The hot fast air procduced make the car behind handle very difficultly. What is need is for downforce to be produced beneath the car so to allow cars to get closer.

I agree with these rules we need to get to basics of driver skills and not just pointing the car in the right direction.

I also want full slicks brought back I hate these new tyres.

Btw I was pleased Montoya won his first race this season he has had such a bad time of it this year what with his injury and various car problems lets hope his season is on the up from now on.

Alesi was one of my favourite drivers, I loved his partnership at Ferrari with Gehard Berger good times.

I still love the likes of Mansell, Senna and even the Professor Mr Alain Prost. While Prost may not have been an out and out on the edge racer like Mansel and Senna he was a very intelligent driver calculating eveything and a great tactician hence his name 'The Professor'. :D

Yeah some good points, Max Mosely and the FIA to me are killing the sport.

For me now sadly its more of a business than a Sport with to many egos getting in the way of the thing people want to see races. :)

Out of interest I read this on the official F1 site about aerodynamics changes.

http://www.formula1.com/news/3309.html

I've read that in a french site, here's the link.
It's the third paragraph above the yellow Benetton.
it's the whole text from "au début de l'année 1993..." to "bien que, comme il fut avéré, on en ait en réalité mal rapporté ses propos."
I give you the systran translation, I hope it accurates.
at the race of sepang 99, the both ferraris won. then, 2 hours later, the technical delegate announce the disqualification of Schumacher and Irvine over the wing deflectors of the ferrari.
they were only 10 mm bigger than the regs allowed, and I honestly don't think the cars gained any advantage, but this was the rule.
so, ferrari, irvine and schuey should have lost there points for this race.
but Ferrari appealed the disqualification and the FIA, surprisingly, upheld the appeal. one week later, Ferrari had their points back.
you know what happened next...
all I want to say is that sometimes, the FIA is more tolerant with some teams...
yes.
raikko had a drive thru for that, last year (canada, if I'm not wrong), and others drivers, sometimes just because they didn't see their back wheel crossing that line just a little.
but not schumacher.

sorry for my english.

I tell you what rule really infuriates me this year, it's the 10 place penalty the driver has to endure if his engine fails. :evil: :angryfire:

I think not only is this anti-competitive it is wholly unfair on the driver and has robbed us the public of some good scraps.

Look at the British GP Kimi Räikkönen demoted 10 in the grid.

I think the FIA should just fine the team say $100,000 and make the team or the engine supplier pay for the engine failing not the driver. There could have been a good scap with Kimi and Juan at Silverstone but we were robbed of that. This rule just plain SUCKS! :roll:

Also I think it's about time the FIA did something about Ferrari'a policy of let Michael Schumacher always win in our team, this is also anti-competitve and I fee sorry for poor Rubens Barrichello he always has to play second fiddle to Michael.

There have been a few times when Rubens could have pushed for the race win but was ordered to stay behind Michael and hold position. He is a better man than me I don't think I could do the same if I were in his position.

Go to http://www.formula1.com/ there is a poll vote about should boost buttons be introduced to promote overtaking? I voted a hefty YES! :D

EDIT: On another note, I just got round to watching the French Grand Prix at Magny Cours (got to be one of the most smoothest tracks in the World :D) and I was saddened by the fact that this was the first French GP in over 40 years that did not have a French Driver.

Olivier Panis being the last French Driver to race an F1 car. I think this is sad news surely there are promising up and coming young French drivers out there? Where are they? :lol:

Michael, I also don't know how the races are broadcasted back there at the U.K..
All I know is that before the race started there was a lot of people that were guessing that 6 Teams would give up after a couple of laps or even after the opening lap.
So, I don't know how you know that all drivers wanted to race.
You're not talking about *after* the race was over are you?
Because at that point everybody *can say* anything they want.
All my posts were based on press releases by the FIA/Michelin/Teams *before* and after the race.
From those press releases we knew that Michelin had a problem.
After the race started we knew that only 3 teams were out there putting up a show for one of the best audiences in the world: F1 fans.
Again I remind you that a lot of other drivers have driven *a lot slower* because their tyre package just wouldn't let them.
You mean that a guy that is 7 times world champion can take it but that other guys can't?
He doesn't deserve anything, although I agree that he is a great racer.
1st he has to proove something, for instance that he is the best, and then he can show us as many fingers in his hands as he wants.
Smooth? Are you serious Michael?
I haven't seen anyone caring so less for the car as I have seen Alonso.
Man, look at the chicane before the big straight at France this year and tell me who has been driving smoothly :lol:.
I for one hope that if he wins - which by know it's already obvious - that only wins for less than 6 points.
Then we will not only see a lot of fingers in his hands as we will also see him pissing his pants.
Obviously Kimi is a whole lot better driver than he is.
You just need to see them racing and you don't need to be an F1 expert to make such an assumption.
I can't make much from these sentenses.
Sorry, English is not my native language...
But I can tell you that even if we saw a couple of overtaking manouvres at the UK it was down to people that had to start from 12 because of rulings...
You don't forget Schummy but you quote him at the very bottom of your list.
That says it all.
I've said it more than once: I don't like his "way" but he is the best driver of all times wether we like it or not.
Masters like Senna or Prost and many others prooved to be good but he prooved to be better than them all by many reasons.
He is still the reigning champion but for everyone he is dead.
I've seen this movie a lot of times.
I still remember Piquet wanted to abandon F1 in '84 / '85 while he was still young.
But I can recall seeing him winning a 3rd title in '87 and leaving F1 in the end of '91 at the age of ~40.
During that period a lot of people had to "swallow a lot of frogs" because of the things they said about him being "dead for F1" and all.
People are starting to say that Schummy is "dead" while he still can finish some races in the podium using a much worser package than others and looking much more relaxed than the 1st and 2nd placed.
He still "has it" and he can still come to show us that next year - given that he has a fast and reliable package something that he hasn't had this year.
I know, he dominated F1 scene for too long and you guys want somebody else to win it at least from times to times right?
So do I!
But let me tell you, when you're the "best by far" such as he is the odds are that he will "be there" again as soon as he is given proper conditions.
For me it's more like "let them all have good packages and let them do the best they can".
In the end we'll know who's the best and I know who's still the best.
Do you know what you're talking about, Michael :roll: ?
Downforce is downforce.
It is usually produced by a fast moving object.
But it can also be produced by a standing-still object that faces the wind, like in a wind tunnel.
Downforce is not produced on the top of the object or on the bottom of the object.
It is simply produced and it has nothing to do with hot air.
That's simply a word for explaining that for instance when an F1 is running - due to it's aerodinamics - the air surrounding it creates forces that push the car against the track as opposed to what happens with an airplane.
What you probably mean is that due to the drag tunnel of the F1 in front, an F1 behind can can go faster than if it wasn't under those conditions.
And that the air inside the drag tube is more rare in oxigen.
I'm using the word drag because it is what is used in Portugal although I'm affraid it might be a "false friend" and by such not applyable to these circumstances when speaking in English.
AND usually, or at least sometimes, such a drag is not a perfect one meaning that aerodinamically speaking it is not smooth producing what you can call turbulence inside the drag tube.
This evil effect is due to the aerodinamics of the F1 in front of you.
What you need to do is to make the F1 in front of you produce a smooth drag.
Now what's the F1's part that is capable of producing more downforce and thus drag?
Yep, the rear wing. And that's why in CART they had a single rear wing produced equally for all teams.
Easy, ain't it?
So was I but the fight was over by the 2nd corner of the 1st lap...

Yep, now I clearly understand you.
But IMHO F1 shouldn't have been deprived from having the Williams participating in the '93 season.
There are not many cars out on the track and if you take 2 down you get to have less than few.
The way it was handled, I agree with you, was disgusting.

Hmm go check the rulings again.
The aerodinamic part had to be X milimeters but also had an error margin of Y milimeters.
Using the error margin both Ferrari's ran inside the regulations.
Bad grey rules...

Okay, I haven't seen it on TV (we do have commercials during the GP broadcast) but I will assume that's true.
Then I can't agree more with you: Michael and everybody that crosses the line exiting the pits should go drink a coffee with Charlie during the race :lol:.
BTW it has happened several times with Michael in the past ;-)

Can't agree more with you.
The engine can be simply bad.
Remember when Ilmor came to the F1 before it was called Mercedes?
How many engines did they blow?
The driver simply doesn't build the engine thus he is not responsible.
So it shouldn't be the driver to suffer from a penalty applied to the team.
Can't agree more with you.
Now I don't agree.
$100.000 is like peanuts for some teams and like billions of $'s for some teams.
I say, let the engine supplier get the fine but not the team.
Now I can't agree again.
You saw what happened when they exited the pits.
It was as close as milimeters from crash.
Of course Ferrari asked them both to "bring the cars home safely" on the radio.
Further let me tell you that Rubens simply can't beat Schummy.
Michael is 1 second faster "in his bare hands" than anybody out there.
Rubens have never shown us that "he can" beat Michael in similar conditions.
Rubens sistematically looses >30 seconds for Michael on a GP.
If I were Jean Todt or Ross Brown of course I would tell them to slow down and bring it home, you bet I would.
As a side note I can say that we heard the Ferrari pits on the US GP but we haven't heard the McLaren's Pits on the Canada GP when they called Kimi before they called JPM.
I sure would have loved hearing JPM's words about that during the race...
I can hardly remember such occasions.
How many? 2? 3?
Come on, let's get real, who would you put the money on?
Michael or Rubens?
On the sports side of things of course I would let them go out and do their best untill the chequered flag.
But this sport runs millions of $'s and you can't afford loosing 1st/2nd to DNF/DNF.
I don't like boosting buttons but hell I voted YES as well :lol:.
That's bad but I can't see any good talents emerging from France.

Yes I do remember Mercedes when they used to call their engines Ilmor, and boy yes there were REALLY unreliable blowing engines up practically every race. :D


To be fair I agree with you on this point actually it should be the Engine supplier that is penalised and not the driver/teams. The Team is resonsible for the chassis and the Driver for well. . .Driving :D so it should be the Engine supplier that is given a hefty fine, this would make them pull their socks up and make more reliable engines.


You are right here of course Rubens is no where near as fast as Schummy as he is the best driver out there bar none (when he's not cheating by ramming his car into his nearest rival to deprive them of the World Championship like he did to Damen Hill & Jacques Villeneurve but it didn't work on Villeneurve ;)) but it must be sould destroying for a driver who's not given a level playing field and told just to sit behind your team mate if I were him I would lack motivation also.

There was a race I can't remember which now maybe Indianapolis where Rubens was pushing hard but to be honest even if he could catch Schummy I doubt he would ever overtake him.

Me to I would have loved to of heard JPM choice of words I bet he wasn't a happy man. :)

True if I were a betting man my money would always be on Michael to get the results. :D

That is true also but sod the DNF/DNF I want the old days like the Senna/Prost battles now those guys had a real pasion for the sport those were the good old days.

Yeah to honest I am not in favour of them either but something has got to be done, I think the best bet is having the downforce beneath the cars rather than from the sides and top.


Yes and this is very sad indeed, let's hope in the near future this will be rectified.

I had already mentioned one of those incidents here.
At the same time I emphasized that Damon had a much much stronger package than Michael that was running on a Ford DFZ engine while Damon was on a Renault engine with a difference in power near the 80 horse power.
To me, while Damon should have been the World Champion he really didn't deserve it as much as Michael who had been strugling with a much worse package.
But having said that, I always count 6 World titles on Michael's behalf instead of 7.
Michael, have you even read my last post about downforce?
Man, downforce is everywhere around the object.
Plus what you are most probably talking about is that you would like to have a clear and smooth drag-less tube for the car running behind.
That way overtaking would be a whole lot easier on high speed corners.
And that is not downforce.
BTW, even if you take the front and back wings off of an F1 car it will still produce downforce but in a much lesser way.
Or maybe you're talking about the early 80s solo-effect where the car's bottom would also work as another wing.
But you can't have that again because if one of those cars looses one of the aerodinamic plates that used to be
placed on the sides of the car they can't turn and they end up like Senna.

I agree he was the better driver is a far inferior car but he still cheated his way to that Championship. This was the point at which I lost most of my respect for Michael as before that he was absolutely brilliant and drove that nervous car like no other could and to go and blatently crash into your opponant as you he knew he made a bad mistake and knew he blew it for me is unforgivable.

To do almost the same thing again to rob Jacques of his World Championship is even more unforgivable, it amazes me how he gets away with it. Any other driver in that situation would have been penalised but Michael again and again seems to get away with blue murder.

Yes I agree Rui, it is a very hard call to make. We the fans want closer nail biting racing but how to achieve that is the problem and at the moment with all that wind turbulence it is hard to the other car's to get near each other.

Im sure they will work it out.

This is why I don't like his way as a person.
But technically speaking, as a driver, he is the best the world as ever seen.
I would bet that it is yet to be born the guy that will ever take his place as the best of all time.
I'm sorry to say that I'm not as sure as you are :?
But obviously that's what I hope.

I don't fully agree with this. You can't really say that he is the best in the World ever because you can't compare the cars of today to the cars of the '50's '60's or even the '70's & 80's.

Take the Argentine Fangio he was in a class of his own of his generation and in a car that probably handled like a bucket of sh#t compared to the modern cars today that practically drive themselves the driver simply only needing to point them in the right direction.

Then you have Piquet, Senna in his day, Sterling Moss. Like I say each generation had their great drivers in cars which handled so differently from the next.

In fact Nicky Lauder, Stirling Moss & Fangio for me get my vote as those cars had no automation like today's car they had to change their own gears, no traction control or launch control in fact none of the modern tech equipment that makes the modern car much more easier to drive, these were real drivers as half of the skill was keeping the car on the track.

I would say Michael is the best of the current generation bar none there is no technical driver out there today as good as him but I don't like his attitude problem which really puts me off him.


We can all dream can't we? :D I to hope some day this will happen but I won't hold my breath that this will take place any time soon.

I don't take a word from my above sentence.
I truly believe in what I said although there is not much evidence that I could use to back me up.
You see it's probably impossible to compare Schumy or any other driver from his generation with some driver from the '50s, '60s or '70s.
But it's not that hard to compare a driver from the mid '80s or from the '90s with nowadays drivers.
Plus it is my personal believe that the drivers from the '50s/'60s were technically less gifted because the cars wouldn't allow them to grow better drivers.
But you can't say the same from the cars from the '80s/'90s.
Damn look at Villeneuve Sr.! Was that a gifted driver or what?
He didn't take much care for the "hardware" but he was plenty of gifted no doubt about it.
Does Villeneuve Jr. stand a chance comparing him against his father?
No way I can believe that although I know Jr is a hell of a racer.
He suffers from a rare syndrome called "when will they stop comparing me with my father".
But we can't be blamed for doing that! His father was a hurricane and we always thought we would come to see the same movie with Jr. :)
I have many VHS tapes with short movies of races from many decades and I do believe in what I say although I may be wrong.
For instance it is also my personal believe that Senna was not that gifted as many may think.
I'm not flaming here, I'm just exposing my oppinion :).
If you look carefully, he only prooved faster with a cheap car when he was at Toleman because after that his path seems too much like the path from Fangio, that is, always with the best car in the pack.
Other than that he hardly would be much ahead of his team mate.
I'm not saying that Schumy hasn't had the best car many times.
But he sure didn't at the times when he was at Benetton or in the 1st and 2nd championship won with Ferrari.
And he has always consistently "given" 30 seconds - when not more than 30 - per race to his team mate.
All in all, I know it doesn't sound fair comparing people from different decades in any sports, but you have to look carefull and maybe you'll see that - for instance in soccer - Ronaldo wouldn't stand a chance against Pele challenging for the best soccer player ;-).
And remember, the ball has seen a lot of development too as well as the average player is nowadays much more skilled that the '50s average player ;-).

Considerations after German GP:
1-Ferrari should fire Rubens latter on today due to his lack of driving skills. I haven't seen the times sheet but he was obviously more than 30secs aways from MS at the end of the race. That is simply unacceptable.
2-Kimi clearly deserved the 1st place and JPM did a wonderful race too and he deserved to be 2nd.
3-If Alonso ever comes to Portugal I will gladly tell him where he can put all the fingers he's been showing. He is simply the most arrogant person I have ever seen.
4-Jarno Trully has once again shown us his lack of respect for everybody else on track. He didn't deserve a stop-and-go. He deserved to be desclassified for this race and the next one.
Not to mention that he is usually a moving obstacle for everybody, +/- the same that Michael Schumacher did today.
5-Very bad race for MS. He showed us how poor those Bridgestone tyres are when compared with the Michelins.
Nevertheless he showed that he is not dead and that should he have a competitive package he could have challenged Kimi and JPM.

Overall, racing is competition +/- the same as any other sport.
We can't expect that our idols can always win.
But this sport is rotten with so many cases such as the one with Fisichela in the last race being called to pit when he still had fuel for 5 laps plus the safety margin.
When Ferrari does the same everybody bombs the newspapers trying to move the public oppinion.
When it's somebody else..., well you don't even get to really know about it, do you?
And even if you do, there's no big problem about that, now is there?
At least I haven't heard anyone here complaining!
Someone please call Max and tell him to crown Alonso immediatly.
Preferably still today.
Also call the Guiness book of records to take Alonso's Picture as he is the youngest driver ever to be crowned.
Don't anybody race the next 5 or 6 races!
Do work on the rules/plans for the next year championship.
I am considering to abadon watching F1 and may I tell you that it is the love of my life.
Either they come up with some way of ending with all these "cases" or there's no point in watching it.
Cheers

2 - What you are saying is subjective.
For me, JPM deserved first place much more than Kimi. Im thinking that Kimi driving is guilty of his broken engines. Why JPM don't burn his one?
And don't say me it is bad luck.
There is not proves, but to me Kimi is gulty in some way, that his car say "game over".
3 - I think you don't understand Alonso neither spanish way. It that moment, when he show his fingers, he have a lot of happyness and want to share it with his family, friends and partners. Didn't you see same behaviour in some Renault mechanic across prices ceremony? Just to enjoy the firs position.
I can see much tv previous grand prixes when FA explain all with a great humility.
I think really you don't know FA.

I see.
All is subjective Luis ;-).
Let me tell you that as you have been able to see for yourself that I am not FA's best friend.
But that is not extensible to the Spanish Hermanos, on the contrary as I have expressed before.
For me, it is a question of education, attitude and of character of the person.
Look at Alain Prost, Ayrton Sena, Nelson Piquet and latelly Michael Schumacher.
All of them are multi-World Champions and we have never ever seen them counting their victories in front of the crowd.
And I mean never!
When someone deliberatly shows everybody the amount of victories they have achieved, for me and for my culture, that is very unpolite.
When it happens once, I can excuse.
When it happens twice I can always say "nah, he won't do that again".
But when it happens six times in a row, that is called lack of education at home with his parents.
Again, not flaming the Spanish people.
If it was Tiago Monteiro showing the fingers I would be here saying the exact same thing.
Arrogance is men's worst enemy.
As for Kimi not taking care of his hardware and for JPM deserving the victory more than Kimi, please look at the time sheets.
Clearly, JPM was pushing the car as much as Kimi or even more than Kimi when he was not behind MS and JB.
As you say, all is always a bit subjective but then we could say that it is so much subjective that I could say that the guy who deserved to win the championship is Tiago Monteiro.
And I could say that taking into consideration the hardware in his hands compared with all the other guys is so bad that he should be the champion.
Nah, I don't buy it :!: ;-)
The guy who is clearly (in overall) fastest and more consistent is Kimi even though I am a 500% Ferrari fan.
If engines would blow on Kimi's hands because of Kimi's driving Ron would have shown him "the door out" already.
This championship is clearly going to fall in the wrong hands but there is nothing I can say against Alonso besides that as a person he shows NO character.
And if that was not enough, people go on excusing him because he is very young and because of this and because of that.
For me it's all bulls**t.
We have seen MS wining 7 world championships and never we have seen him showing us 7 fingers.
Do you know why?
He can laugh, he can jump, he can scream, he can party, he can try to sing the Italian anthem with the crowd, and he can even presume that he is the best of all times when he is at home with his family, but he was brought up by a decent family with high standards in terms of education.
They would never allow him to do that, for sure.
Perhaps Alonso hasn't had such luck.
In the sports field I wanna know why noone blames Renault for choosing which of their drivers will win when everybody blames Ferrari when they tell Rubens to stay put or to let Michael go by.
Every team out there does the exact same thing and I see noone blaming other teams.
That's something I can't understand.
Is it because it's Ferrari, because it's such a traditional team that they aren't allowed to do that but then Mercedes and Renault can?
But this is all very subjective and it could be me "thinking things" or "seeing things" that nobody else can see.
Maybe it's my behaviour that is unbalanced and not FA's...
Cheers

I think any of MS, KR, JPM, FA and many others would be champions with the better car. But despite McLaren is showing as the fastest, they are not the more regular ones. And F1 is so, not only a pilot, but a team.

It is without doubt objetivament the fastest, across a limited number of laps.
Renault is doing things far better that McLaren.
I want FA be the champion.

I think it is something subtle, nonevident.

If it would be so, FA don't have any culp of bad education receipt.

GFis said that it is not the behaviour in Renault team.
You could see, some GPs ago, when GFis was through race first than FA, Renault manager didn't say GFis go down and let FA overtake you. Neither I se GFis lowering others pilots, helping in this way FA (I would do that).
Didn't see you that?

No, that's not my oppinion.
All with the better car I would bet all my money for MS and for sure I wouldn't loose.

Luis, again I ask you to look at the time sheets lap-by-lap of all the races so far.
Now tell me who is consistently the fastest guy on track.
And it's not his fault that a Mercedes engine can't last a whole race or a whole weekend.
He is being paid to be the fastest out there and he is delivering ;-)
And he has won already 3 races and never I have seen him counting it by his fingers...
For sure they are, I never said anything different.
What I have said is that McLaren is a way better package in terms of pure speed an I even compared it with Ferrari.
I am sure you want and it very obvious that you can start to open the Moet Chandon bottles.
What exactly is supposed to be subtle or nonevident?
That Kimi blow his engines because he doesn't want to win races or because he wants to start from the back of the grid?
I'm sorry but I don't think I can buy that.
Of course he does, or (analogy) do you mean that every murderer's son is a murderer?
It's always a question of "your" choice and a question of education.
You can't separate both.
I'm sorry Luis but I don't quite understand this paragraph.
But have you ever heard Jean Todt or Ross Brown ask Barrichelo to let MS go by?
You haven't.
You can say that we hear many teams radio-comms but also that we almost never hear Renault/McLaren/Ferrari radio-comms.
And that could be the reason why we never heard JT or RB asking Rubens to let MS go by him.
And that's something that p**ses me off too.
But then I want to hear all the other teams too because I am quite sure that they do exactly the same.
Why did Ron pull JPM to the pits one lap after yellow flags in Canada?
To give Kimi the chance of winning it.
Am I seeing too much Spielberg movies here?
And maybe you were probably mentioning that you haven't seen GF slowing down other drivers during the race to let FA go and win it, if I understood it clearly.
But there's no need to do that. Other drivers have been doing that instead of GF.
Look at Trully that usually qualifies almost on Pole and then in the race he slows down everybody letting the guy in front go away.
Or look at MS this weekend slowing down Button and JPM.
And if I recall it correctly GF has only won 1 race this year and it was one of the 1st races of the season.
There is no point in asking somebody to slow down and let by someone else in the 1st race, is there?
And of course I would love to see a Spaniard or a Portuguese winning the championship but not FA after what he has shown me so far.
Cheers

I would like to post some captures of F1 stuff, but I don't know if there is any legal problem, not only race segments but specially one video clip witha a song writen for Fernando Alonso.
Does somebody know if there is any problem?

Hi Luis,

If they are TV captures, from aired live races, I don't see any problems posting them :)
However, if they are from commercial DVDs, then that is a problem.
Just make sure the footage you are posting doesn't clearly say "Copyright bla bla bla, 200x" ;)

-kwag

Thanks.

Well, I know that it is not a quality video, but it is very nice.
Enjoy it.
Is a video clip in spanish language.

Magic Alonso

Thanks Luis, I shall check it out.

Yeah I just watched Monza on Sunday and yet again this stupid rule of 10 places back if an engine is changed has robbed us the fans of a possible exciting wheel to wheel race.

I wish I knew which Moron thought of that retarded rule he has for me practically killed the sport and we have been robbed of so many potential battles this year.

I know you don't like Alonso Rui, but I think he is a very mature driver for his age. The way he held up Kimi enough to ruin hinder his chances of beating him and the professional manner in which he let him pass as he knew it was inevitable that Kimi would pass him having the faster car.

I was very happy that JPM won the race he deserved it after such an up and down season and the same goes to Fisichella, I am glad he got his podium place he also deserved it after a great drive. :)

I look forward to next weeks race at Spa Francorchamps this weekend it is one of my favourite on the calender and it a really smooth circuit.

Michael...I was gonna say a lot of bull.
But right before I post it I thought: what will I gain from posting this crap?
It won't do anything good for the sport.
So I'll use your own words: "I wish I knew which Moron thought of that retarded rule".
You see, if that moron had not thought of such a rule, Kimi would have started from pole and would evidently won the race and Alonso would have finished 3rd (I have a wonderful crystal ball :D).
And there wouldn't have been any battle between Alonso and Kimi ;-).
Now just think that appart from the mechanic failures on the McLaren Kimi has seen this "10 place on the grid" rule for 3 ocasions this season...
But what most amazes me is the bad luck Alonso had this race.
I mean, JPM's rear left tyre was supposed to have blown in the last couple of laps and Alonso should have won the race, right?
Can you imagine such a bad luck from Alonso :mrgreen: :?:
Why bother having the last 4 races if we can crown this guy right away :? :?:

It seems that all forget that rules are the same for all teams.
The rule is for give more oportunities to that teams that have not enough money to change engine when they wants.
McLaren is faster but bad.
Renault is slower but good.
Alonso does his job, put his car in the better position that his car can be,as McLaren are quickers, he said it in many opportunities, and put pressure over McLaren drivers. This time it was wrong, he doesn't put enough pressure on JPM, if he would do that, Im sure he would win the race.