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  #21  
03-24-2003, 07:32 PM
rendalunit rendalunit is offline
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hi Jorel,

Discussions about the war are encouraged here:
http://nonviolence.org/comment/viewf...94de1d2fdb87bc

I'll post links to any other discussion groups when i find them too.

ren
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  #22  
03-25-2003, 08:47 AM
Bytecode Bytecode is offline
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I think before I post my view I must sort out some of our assumptions. We either A. Believe the world (us/uk included) must help one another and try our best to make this world a better place or B. screw anyone who can't help themselves. If they aren't willing to make the sacrafice of generations to liberate themselves then they deserve what they get.

In a way, I think we all agree with B to some degree. Let the iraqi people have their own country and deal with their own problems. Let the UN deal with UN problems and the iraqi's deal with thier own civil problems. If they won't mount a defense for their wives and children, then we shouldn't be doing it for them.

I'm not trying to insult or offend anyone, but what more must a person do to prove he is wrong. What more must a people suffer to warrent their protection. Saddam and his regime are evil men by nature. They are not peaceful men, they have no love for their country, and therfore will never submit to the world of peaceful men through peaceful means. There comes a point when you quit negotiating, you quit batering deals, and you quit believing that ignoring a situation will make it go away. I think people compare this to world war II, not because sadam is anywhere near as powerful as hitler, or because he has comitted as many crimes. We compare it because he has the POTENTIAL to do MORE. Do you honestly believe that if sadam had the power, he would hesitate to destroy isreal, the us, great britian, the curds, or anyone else he could not force to bow down? Do you understand that sadam does not mistreat his prisoners, he tortures them and their families. Do you not see sadam hiding his troops in civialan homes, hospitals, and schools? Have you not seen what happens when iraqis speak out against their "leader"? Are these the actions of a man capable of peace?

I think the world feels that americans want everyone to be american, but this is so far from the truth. We do get over arrogant, in assuming we are the greatest nation on the earth, therefore have the greatest ideas. This is not allways the case, but the bottom line is, we will not tollerate being terrorized. And that nation has been terrorizing people for half a century.

/end rants and raves

-BC
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  #23  
03-25-2003, 10:58 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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hi friendelunit , hi bytecode!

once again, i'm not offended by anyone's opinion and i don't want to offend anyone's country, or culture or anyone. I regard everybody in this forum as a friend, and I know this doesn't belong here, but I think it's okay to exchange one's opinion and maybe learn from them.

I think we all agree that saddam is a very dangerous dictator, and that he is a criminal. and i'm sure the world WILL be better off without such a man, and you're right, he is not peaceful at all.
but what I'm saying is, when America is now starting a war against iraq, without a United Nations permission, with the reason that Saddam is a threat to the rest of the world, why can't India for example start a war against Pakistan for the same reason? Doesn't it all lie in the eye of the beholder? I know that many americans will shout now, and again, this is no offense to anyone!
The fact that is so disappointing to me is just, that America, as the role model of morality and democracy just doesn't seem to care about international laws, that they themselves passed. I think in the 21st century, it is the duty of mankind, to prevent every war that is not totally necessary. i was on america's side, when it came to the afghanistan war, just like my country (germany), who were one of the first countries to help the US in this war. but this now is totally different. it's just not like President Bush says, that there is evidence of mass destruction weapons in Iraq, and a connection to the terrorist networks. i know it's presented in such ways in america, but in other countries there are doubts.
I really love america, and I've been in Dallas, TX at september 11, when the bombings happened. I've seen their energy and how united the american people are, when it comes to crisises.
but when we now start wars against dictatorships, why don't we start with let's say north korea? this country has every mass destruction weapon, (including nuclear missiles), that america is still looking for in Iraq. the threat here is far more important to the world.

this is my statement, and again i don't want to offend anyone.

@rendalunit: I didn't know that the majority of the american people are against the war. Here in the news it's said that there are more supporters.
waiting for your reply!
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  #24  
03-25-2003, 11:32 AM
bman bman is offline
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@ ByteCode !
U are so right man and I've to agree with u totally!!!
I didn't wanted to post my oppinion on this WAR but when I see NEWS , when I see those trups that are going to fight for what is right ( and I'm sure it's right ) I just can't stand a side and do not nothing ( THIS is a minimum a can do ) .
What is happening with our world ? He hes got BLIND ??? Or nobody sees the great denger that our leaders see ???? Or Just NOBODY cares ???
Ya , I know some of u will laugh and some others will say that I'm talking noncense . Maybe , but recall plase World War II .
Than happened very same thing : EVERYone UK,France,US knew what are planes of HITTLER and what he can do but they did nothing to prevent that war and sacrificed 50 million lifes for nothing ?!!!
This is not happening today : Bush KNOWS what is in Saddam 's arsenal and He is afread that all of those Chemical and more dengerous Biological weapon will find a way to get to US or UK or any other country erond the world and rest I just Leave to your immegination .
Very skary thought , VERY !!!
So Let's wish that war will come to end sune as possible and Saddam or AnyOne else who is rulling in Iraq now will save lifes of hes own ppl and many OTHERS from another side who are just doing their jobs .
I hope and prey for all soldiers that they will go back to their homes and families live and in best health and Iraqian's ( too ) will find peace and prosperity .
Sorry to be sentimental but I know what war is , I know What is when troups are going to fight and I already have seen many of them dead too .
It's traggedy and I'm so sorry that THE END of it is still far away .
bman
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  #25  
03-25-2003, 04:07 PM
PyRoMaNiA PyRoMaNiA is offline
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Quote:
in doom9 a new rule:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49457

but i save all pages about war before they close the thread and ever post:
"don't close this, just post your opinion without attack other member"....
was hard... ,many americans members ask doom9 and to the moderators
all the time:
"why you don't close this?"

closed thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49276

in cdrbase more 2 threads that i open was closed too!
was closed too faster, and i don't have the links!
but i got many pms from there!
In most of the forums I've seen it seems most people can't wait to start flame wars, then get kicked out by the mods...but not here!
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  #26  
03-26-2003, 08:27 AM
Bchteam Bchteam is offline
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Some people must be very dumb to believe,that there are any WoMD (Weapons of Mass destruction)In Iraq.This alleged Threat was made up by the US Government (Cheaney,Rumsfeld,Wolfowitz) to legitmate a war,which has other Reasons that we all should know(Oil,Israel).After 9/11,especially Wolfowitz,pleaded for war an immediate war.The US Government just made up the suspicion,that Iraq has Links with Al Queda.But all informed people know, that there's still no evidence for that and there will be no evidence at all, because it's just a Lie to legitimate this war.All the people,who watch those NBC,Fox TV Networks cannot be informed properly, because those Networks are controlled by the Army,Government and the Industry, which will be the big winner of this war.Those networks are influencing the people with this fictious Threat.

The claim,that there are any WoMD in Iraq is very unlikely,if not totally wrong.And even if there would be those weapons,tey are still no Threat,because Iraq has no carrier systems to reach Europe or America.And people,who believe that there are any Nuclear Weapons in Iraq must be informed very badly.Cause,to have serious Nuclear Weapons,tests have to be made and those tests cannot be hide, like Bush is always lying.The chief of the International Nuclear authority,El Baradei,said that there had been no activities related with Nuclear Things,since 1990 by Iraq.To me it's unlikely that there are any Biological and chemical Weapons,as well.Hans Blix,Chief UN-Inspector,said that "big steps of Cooperation" have been made by the Iraq,and as we all know,No weapons of Mass destruction had been found in Iraq.Und also the doubtful Al Samoud Rockets have been destroyed in the limit of the prescribed time.The remaining rockets could not be destroyed, because Bush already gave his OK for the (Oil)war.

The US TV reporters have been dismissed, because they were not reporting objective.Reporters from other countries were allowed to stay in Baghdad, because they are not used as tools of Propaganda, which the US Government is pursueing more than Iraq.

I noticed, that a lot of people use the Argument, that saddam killed his own people with poison gas.That may be true,but when was did that happen?2001,2002,2003?
No,it happened 1995,that's almost 10 Years from now.And after that Attack,the United Nations immediately sent Inspectors to totally disarm the Iraq,unfortunately they have been dismissed from iraq,because the US Government used them for espionage,as can be proved.

So,for me there's no Legitimation for this war,and as we can see in Nadjaf the people don't welcome their self styled Liberators.
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  #27  
03-26-2003, 11:22 AM
digitalize digitalize is offline
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Well said Bytecode!!! Look what happened when they did not stop Hitler when they had the chance. He went on to terrorize millions.
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  #28  
03-26-2003, 11:36 AM
jamesp jamesp is offline
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When did they have the chance to stop Hitler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalize
Well said Bytecode!!! Look what happened when they did not stop Hitler when they had the chance. He went on to terrorize millions.
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  #29  
03-26-2003, 11:47 AM
Bchteam Bchteam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalize
Well said Bytecode!!! Look what happened when they did not stop Hitler when they had the chance. He went on to terrorize millions.
You are always talking about how good the US and the UK were, because they fought against the Nazi's.But while they fought the Nazi's they teamed up with one, who was probably more evil than Hitler.

Yes,I'm talking about Stalin. The US and UK were Cooperating with a Devil, who terrorized Millions,as well.

And by the way, neither the US nor the UK defeated Hitler.It was Stalin,who won the decisive battle in Stalingrad.That defeat broke Hitler's neck.
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  #30  
03-26-2003, 12:42 PM
jamesp jamesp is offline
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I always thought that America (please note i am not anti american) has always been a little to quick to say that their entry into the war was the decisive moment that eventually won the war. The Russian winter was a killer for the germans, and killed a huge amount of soldiers. They never really recovered from these losses. Also, the resistance put up by britain during the battle of britain changed the course of the war. If we hadn't done that, the war would have been over before america could have entered.

But, i agree that Stalin was the biggest monster he has ever walked this earth. If i remember rightly, he is accountable for more deaths than any other ruler in history. What a great man to have as your allie.

Jim


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bchteam
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalize
Well said Bytecode!!! Look what happened when they did not stop Hitler when they had the chance. He went on to terrorize millions.
You are always talking about how good the US and the UK were, because they fought against the Nazi's.But while they fought the Nazi's they teamed up with one, who was probably more evil than Hitler.

Yes,I'm talking about Stalin. The US and UK were Cooperating with a Devil, who terrorized Millions,as well.

And by the way, neither the US nor the UK defeated Hitler.It was Stalin,who won the decisive battle in Stalingrad.That defeat broke Hitler's neck.
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  #31  
03-27-2003, 08:11 AM
digitalize digitalize is offline
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I did not mean the US when I said we, I just meant the world in general.
Here is what I was talking about when I said we did not stop him when we had the chance.
http://www.ellonacademy.org.uk/histo...rhrineland.htm
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  #32  
03-27-2003, 09:02 AM
jamesp jamesp is offline
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digitalize,

Thanks for those notes, very interesting. However, I don't agree with them on the point about stopping Hitler. Surely opposing him militarily in 1936 (?) most probably would have brought the war forward. Germany didn't become a huge power overnight.

Jim

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Originally Posted by digitalize
I did not mean the US when I said we, I just meant the world in general.
Here is what I was talking about when I said we did not stop him when we had the chance.
http://www.ellonacademy.org.uk/histo...rhrineland.htm
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  #33  
03-28-2003, 03:43 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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strange old "news":

http://www.awolbush.com/wherewasbush.asp

http://www.awolbush.com/

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  #34  
03-29-2003, 08:46 AM
Canman Canman is offline
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@jamesp, I don't wanna comment on the current war at all. But you should read up on your history lesson. Germany was _not_ a superpower at all before Hitler took over Germany. Infact, Germany was inflicted with sanctions since WWI. There was a big depression in all of Europe last in the 20ies and the beginning of the 30ies and really didn't have any army in particular. Then Hitler took over and he didn't give a hoot about the sanctions and he actually succeeded in overcomming the depression in Germany. He built a very stable infrastructure manufactured many needed things like the Beetle and lots of new roads. Unfortunatly he was a megalomaniac and also built a big army. Within a few years, Germany had one of the biggest armies in the world. In the history books it's often mentioned that if the countries that sanctioned Germany had stepped in and stoppped Hitler when he started breaking the sanctions inflicted upon Germany, we might have avoided WWII.

I just wanted to correct you on this matter and I hope I haven't offended you or anybody here. I just need to have the facts straight.
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  #35  
03-29-2003, 10:10 AM
jamesp jamesp is offline
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Canman,

I totally agree with you, Germany became a huge power after Hitler took over. However, he actually came to power in 1933. The document indicated that opposing him militarily in 1936-37 could have averted the war. By 1936 Hitlers germany was fast becoming that huge miliary power. I don't think that by opposing in 36 would have stopped a war, just brought it forward.

In fact, one of the things which contributed to Germany's hatred of the rest of the world were those sancations imposed after World War 1. Even in the British governments eyes, Germany was treated way too harshly and when Germany started violating those sanctions, the rest of the World let them get on with it because of the depressions those sanctions caused. How awful would history look if not only did we impose these harsh actions, but also after a horrible depression we take miltary action that starts a war. This is why i personally don't agree with imposing harsh sanctions (like those imposed against Iraq). They hurt the general public and create further rifts between them and the rest of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canman
@jamesp, I don't wanna comment on the current war at all. But you should read up on your history lesson. Germany was _not_ a superpower at all before Hitler took over Germany. Infact, Germany was inflicted with sanctions since WWI. There was a big depression in all of Europe last in the 20ies and the beginning of the 30ies and really didn't have any army in particular. Then Hitler took over and he didn't give a hoot about the sanctions and he actually succeeded in overcomming the depression in Germany. He built a very stable infrastructure manufactured many needed things like the Beetle and lots of new roads. Unfortunatly he was a megalomaniac and also built a big army. Within a few years, Germany had one of the biggest armies in the world. In the history books it's often mentioned that if the countries that sanctioned Germany had stepped in and stoppped Hitler when he started breaking the sanctions inflicted upon Germany, we might have avoided WWII.

I just wanted to correct you on this matter and I hope I haven't offended you or anybody here. I just need to have the facts straight.
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  #36  
03-30-2003, 03:56 AM
Canman Canman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp
I don't think that by opposing in 36 would have stopped a war, just brought it forward.
Well, we will never know. You might think that WWII was unavoidable and I might think the opposite but lets face it, we will never know and we could probably argue about that a long time and never agree, so lets not argue about what we will not know. What we do know is that we did have a WWII and that a lot of innocent people was killed.
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  #37  
03-30-2003, 10:42 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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more "strange" things:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...8-032440-7289r

http://www.cdrbase.com/showthread.ph...hlight=%2A.%2A

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  #38  
03-31-2003, 09:20 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canman
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp
I don't think that by opposing in 36 would have stopped a war, just brought it forward.
Well, we will never know. You might think that WWII was unavoidable and I might think the opposite but lets face it, we will never know and we could probably argue about that a long time and never agree, so lets not argue about what we will not know. What we do know is that we did have a WWII and that a lot of innocent people was killed.
I think what jamesp meant is not that WW2 was unavoidable.
If those sanctions wouldn't have been that hard, and maybe the victorious countries of WW1 would have helped to rebuild economy in Germany, this would have avoided WW2. Hitler wouldn't have had the chance to step into germany and start a revolution, because people would have been more satisfied with the political situation at that time.
I agree with jamesp that a war in 1936 wouldn't have changed anything. any war is bad.
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  #39  
03-31-2003, 12:34 PM
telemike telemike is offline
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According to the American Battle Monuments Commission there are 26,255 Yankee dead from World War I buried in 4 cemeteries in France. There are 30,426 American dead from World War II buried in 6 cemeteries in France.
===============================================
When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked
by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has
sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for
freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.
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  #40  
03-31-2003, 01:18 PM
Canman Canman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose
I think what jamesp meant is not that WW2 was unavoidable.
If those sanctions wouldn't have been that hard, and maybe the victorious countries of WW1 would have helped to rebuild economy in Germany, this would have avoided WW2. Hitler wouldn't have had the chance to step into germany and start a revolution, because people would have been more satisfied with the political situation at that time.
Ahh, so your opinion is that a country who unprovoked invades a country to seize it and then looses should not be punished at all. That imho would be the same, in a smaller scale, to let the known rapist go unpunished? Because that was what the sanctions against Germany were. It was means to try and keep the war mongers down, unfortunately as we know, it wasn't followed up upon and Hitler could roam freely. Besides the depression was in all of europe and not just germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose
I agree with jamesp that a war in 1936 wouldn't have changed anything. any war is bad.
Two things:
1. As I said we will never know. What your expressing is pure beliefs, nothing else. We might as well discuss what religion is the right religion.
2. But questioning your beliefs: You think it was better to let Hitler have the 3 additional years to plan for any thing and building extermination camps?
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