Quantcast CD that Will be Played Both on a PC and on a Standalone DVD Player ? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
09-09-2002, 09:31 AM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Hi Kwag,

First of all, congratulations for your great work.
I have spent some hours reading posts from the forums.

I would like to know your advice for the following :
I want to make a CD that will be played both on a PC and on a standalone DVD player ( a hybrid CD ). On this CD I have a multimedia application which shows menus and plays the video files on a PC.
I am using MPEG1 VCD compatible files ( 352 x 240 ).

The files are burned using Nero and the VCD folder structure, so as to also work on standalone DVD players.

I have tested this but the quality is not good when played back on standalone DVD players. If I increase the video bitrate some DVD players won´t play it correctly.

Then I discovered your web site and the TMPGEnc templates you have developed.
I see that you use, on your templates for NTSC, resolutions like :
352 x 240 ; 352 x 480 ; 704 x 480 and 528 x 480

I would like to know which of your templates would be suitable for playing the video files on both PC and standalone DVD players.
My MPEG1 video files, for 352 x 240 and video bitrate=1150 , generally take 10 Mbytes for 1 min.

Quality is OK for PC , but no good for standalone DVD player. I would like to have as much quality as possible on standalone DVD player, while maintaining compatibility with as many DVD players as possible.


Another issue would be regarding to capturing from Mini-DV. I have a Pinnacle Studio DV capture card (firewire port), and use Pinnacle´s Studio Version 7 software. Capture is done at Full DV quality (no additional compression besides the DV format 5:1 compression ratio) at 720 x 480 ; 29,97 fps ; Audio PCM 48 KHz 16bit stereo, and saved to uncompressed AVI.

- Should I capture at a different resolution? I read on your forums that it would be best to capture at the resolution intended for the final MPEG file.
- Should I use a different software / codec for capturing ?
- Should I do IVTC before converting to MPEG with TMPGEnc ?

Thank you for any advice.
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  #2  
09-10-2002, 07:40 PM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Hi Kwag,

As we talked yesterday on the chat, I had tried burning your samples on CD-RW , and they did not play well on my DVD player ( Gradiente D22). As I told you, I tried the same CD-RW on 2 players : Panasonic RV-31 and Sony DVP-S530D , and all the samples played very well.
I am reading everything I can about AviSynth, in order to try IVTC as we discussed yesterday. As soon as I have managed to do it, I will post the results.
I managed to connect to the irc server ( axpi ) using Mirc. But I forgot the name of the channel. I used Mirc's list channel command, but I am afraid there was no one at the time on the channel. What is the name ?
Talk back to you soon ...
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  #3  
09-10-2002, 09:09 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi Lula1,

The channel is #KVCD_Chat

Regards,
-kwag
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  #4  
09-14-2002, 12:15 AM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Hi kwag,

I just received a phone call this afternoon, from a guy that wants a hybrid CD. In his case, video was shot with a Mini-DV . So as we talked on the chat, you said I would have to first deinterlace, because DV is 29,97 fps. In this case, I assume won't have to IVTC. Is this correct ?

This guy wants best possible quality when watching on DVD / TV set.
Total video time is 40 minutes. So , I am thinking of putting on the CD 2 video files :
- for watching on PC I would put a 352x240 or 320x240
- for watching on DVD / TV set I plan to use your KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm template with quality value set at 25. I think that would lead to about 400 Mbytes for 40 min., is that right ? So, using FiCD I would keep 3/4 DVD and 2 blocks overscan and add to the script the bob() function.

Found this on http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtcsynth3.shtml :
"Notice that encoding 23.976 NTSC Film VCDs may have issues with certain external DVD Players. " Is that really a problem ?

As for the other "Filters for treating interlaced video" , should I use any of them ?

Thank's in advance.
Back to reading on the forums and documentation for AviSynth.
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  #5  
09-14-2002, 02:46 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula1
Hi kwag,

I just received a phone call this afternoon, from a guy that wants a hybrid CD. In his case, video was shot with a Mini-DV . So as we talked on the chat, you said I would have to first deinterlace, because DV is 29,97 fps. In this case, I assume won't have to IVTC. Is this correct ?

This guy wants best possible quality when watching on DVD / TV set.
Total video time is 40 minutes. So , I am thinking of putting on the CD 2 video files :
- for watching on PC I would put a 352x240 or 320x240
- for watching on DVD / TV set I plan to use your KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm template with quality value set at 25. I think that would lead to about 400 Mbytes for 40 min., is that right ? So, using FiCD I would keep 3/4 DVD and 2 blocks overscan and add to the script the bob() function.

Found this on http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtcsynth3.shtml :
"Notice that encoding 23.976 NTSC Film VCDs may have issues with certain external DVD Players. " Is that really a problem ?

As for the other "Filters for treating interlaced video" , should I use any of them ?

Thank's in advance.
Back to reading on the forums and documentation for AviSynth.
Hi Lula1:

You can't Inverse Telecine something if it's not Telecined. If you have a DV file which was shot with a DV camera at 29.97fps, you can only deinterlace it to put it on a VCD. If your target is a SVCD, SKVCD, DVD, KDVD, then you don't need to deinterlace. You encode at 29.97fps.
You only IVTC if the original source was shot FILM ( 24fps ).

For the issue of 23.976 on VCD's, yes, only on some DVD players you'll have problems playing. Even though 23.976fps is a valid frame rate for VCD, some manufacturers did a lousy job on the chip sets, and only play back at 29.97fps

If you have to deinterlace, I suggest you look into AviSynth's manual. It's full of documentation, with many different functions to deinterlace.
Download the complete package here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/avisynth2

For IVTC, I suggest you use the decomb.dll, and read about the Telecide() and Decimate() functions. They really do the magic

-kwag
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  #6  
09-14-2002, 03:50 PM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Kwag,

I understood that in this case I don't have to IVTC .

In order to maintain compatibility with most possible DVD players ( and we have some brands here in Brazil that are really picky, as the Gradiente D22 I told you ) I will then keep 29,97 fps. In this case, can I use your KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm template , changing it to 29,97 fps ?
For the 40 min. video, what file size would I then expect ?
I understand I should capture from the Mini-DV at 528 x 480 , the same resolution you use on your template. Is that OK or should I capture at 640 x 480 ?

Thank's for your help.
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09-14-2002, 04:00 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula1
Kwag,

I understood that in this case I don't have to IVTC .

In order to maintain compatibility with most possible DVD players ( and we have some brands here in Brazil that are really picky, as the Gradiente D22 I told you ) I will then keep 29,97 fps. In this case, can I use your KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm template , changing it to 29,97 fps ?
For the 40 min. video, what file size would I then expect ?
I understand I should capture from the Mini-DV at 528 x 480 , the same resolution you use on your template. Is that OK or should I capture at 640 x 480 ?

Thank's for your help.
Try to capture at 528x480, just as in the templates, but encode using the KVCDx3 MPEG-2, so that you can encode interlaced. Change the 3:2 pulldown to interlaced on the template. You're going to have to encode and make a test to find out your file size with this method. You should still be able to fit around 45 minutes on a CD-R.

-kwag
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  #8  
09-14-2002, 04:49 PM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Hi,

You say I should use the Mpeg2 template.

On the main page of your web site you say :
"You must burn the mpeg files as non-standard VCD with Nero or VCDEasy"

Does that also apply using the MPEG2 template or should I burn as non-standard SVCD ? In this case, how about compatibility with DVD players, since SVCD compatibiliy is smaller than VCD compatibility ( as seen on DVD compatibility list of vcdhelp.com ).

I hope you understand my concern with DVD compatibility, since the CD will be distributed to many people with different DVD player brands and models.

Alternatively, could I deinterlace and then use the MPEG1 template ?

Also, file size is another issue, since I pretend, as described above, to have 2 video files on the CD :
- a 320 x 240 Mpeg1 to be played back on the PC
and
- the 528 x 480 to be played back on the DVD / TV set as VCD ( or SVCD ? )

The video that will be handed to me is 40 minutes long.

Thank's again.
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  #9  
09-14-2002, 06:44 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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The why don't you use the KDVD templates?
This will guarantee 100% compatibility with any DVD player!
Of course this is to be burned on a DVD(+-)R, and not on a CD-R. But if your concern is distribution and compatibility, I would go standard DVD compliance.

-kwag
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  #10  
09-14-2002, 07:39 PM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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I don't want to go into DVD-R for 2 reasons :

1 - Standalone DVD player compatility, as reported by owners on http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php is not high : only 578 out of 1296 for DVD-R , and 216 for DVD+R .
You say this will guarantee 100% compatibility ? I think I must be missing something here ... Can you shed some light on this subject ?

2 - As I told you before, my goal is to have a hybrid CD , that will play a multimedia application ( besides video, it includes images, animation, background music, text and so on ) on PC , and when put on standalone DVD players will only play the video, as a VCD ( or SVCD ? ).

So, again I ask :

On the main page of your web site you say :
"You must burn the mpeg files as non-standard VCD with Nero or VCDEasy"

Does that also apply using the MPEG2 template or should I burn as non-standard SVCD ? In this case, how about compatibility with DVD players, since SVCD compatibiliy is smaller than VCD compatibility ( as seen on DVD compatibility list of vcdhelp.com ).

Alternatively, could I deinterlace and then use the MPEG1 template ?

Also, file size is another issue, since I pretend, as described above, to have 2 video files on the CD :
- a 320 x 240 Mpeg1 to be played back on the PC
and
- the 528 x 480 to be played back on the DVD / TV set as VCD ( or SVCD ? )

The video that will be handed to me is 40 minutes long.

Thank's .
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09-14-2002, 08:25 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Lula1,
The problem I see is that you expect to give out a non-standard VCD (KVCD), and assume it will play in all your customers or friends DVD players. This is not the goal of KVCD. The goal is to produce a format, which as distributed ( KVCD templates ) will work for your personal backups and transfers. It's not intended as a "standard", such as VCD, SVCD, DVD, which will play ( sort of ) on compatible standard models. We enjoy good quality and longer play times than any VCD, SVCD or DVD standard on the market, at the cost that it's for our own use. That is, either the template works on your player as it is, or after some tweaks. If it doesn't work, well that's sad, because we can't guarantee that it will play on every DVD player. Unless manufacturers start to listen, which they probably are , and start supporting VBR methods in their machines. The way I see it, this is already happening, because no manufacturer want's to stay behind their competition. And I believe there are many thousands right now, that want to play their (XYZ)VCD on their player. If a manufacturer doesnt fill this need, they are shooting themselves on their foot.
So I suggest you stick to a standard VCD, if your purpose is to distribute some material to many people, which probably have many different DVD player brands. Unless you know in advanced what brands all your clients have, then you can test a KVCD template and optimize it for a specific player. Until I see some manufacturers specifying MPEG-1 VBR, or better yet "KVCD Compatible" on their boxes , I wouldn't release commercially any KVCD. At least not yet

-kwag
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  #12  
09-16-2002, 09:58 AM
Lula1 Lula1 is offline
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Hi Kwag,

First of all I must thank you for taking the time to reply.
Also congratulate you for your work.

Yes, in my case, compatibility is the main issue, since my CD will be distributed to many people.
VCD compatibility stands as 1046 out of 1296 DVD players as reported by owners. ( DVD compatibility list on vcdhelp.com )

I did not know your templates were just for personal use .

On the homepage of your web site, I read :

" The mpeg files created will play back in most modern standalone DVD players "

I understood that as an indication of compatibility.

By your post, I now see that I misunderstood the goal of KVCD templates.

Guess I will have to stick to standard VCD specs ( maybe using a little higher constant video bitrate ) .

Anyway, again thank's for taking the time and congratulations for your work.
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  #13  
09-16-2002, 12:11 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Thanks Lula1,

Just wanted you to be aware of the consequences. many people screaming back at you saying "This doesn't work on my player"
Hopefully in a year or so, KVCD will play in all DVD players
It's all in our hands. The users. If we make enough noise, and ask for support from manufacturers, the will modify their firmware on their decoder chip's.
Then they will sell more players, and we'll be happier playing KVCDs' without compatibility issues
Just keep your eyes open. Some manufacturer might just appear with a "KVCD compatible" on their list.
"Hello Panasonic, SONY, JVC, Toshiba, Apex, Samsung, Pioneer, and too many others to acknowledge "

-kwag
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