Quantcast GOP Standards for PAL and NTSC Players? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
12-10-2003, 07:08 PM
russiansexpat russiansexpat is offline
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according to DVD standard:
max gop for ntsc is 18
max gop for pal is 15
In reality, how long gop standalone players usually do accept?
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12-10-2003, 08:35 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiansexpat
In reality, how long gop standalone players usually do accept?
For (S)VCD, you can go way over 100, and it will still play on most players
But results are crap, because of the extremely long GOP.
For DVDs, I'm not sure, because most DVD authoring programs always stick to 15 or 18, and they just won't let you import the mpeg if it's not a standard GOP.

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12-11-2003, 09:30 AM
russiansexpat russiansexpat is offline
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Correct me if I am wrong.
Processing of GOP is happening with decoder buffer, and you actually specify the size of this buffer in multiplexing options which are 46K for VCD and 230 for SVCD.
In reality, DVD players memory buffer is much larger than these outdated specifications.
Maybe that's why standalone decoders chuck on long GOPs and the only thing is they want to tell them that allowed buffer in multiplex stream is larger?
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12-11-2003, 09:38 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Yes, it's all (mostly) dependant on the VBV size.
I'm pretty sure most DVD players will handle long GOPs. It's just the authoring programs that are too strick, and don't let us do it
Eventually, when more DVD authoring programs are available, maybe some will be more "relaxed", and allow non-standard stuff, and then we'll be able to try all sorts of weird things

-kwag
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12-11-2003, 11:04 AM
russiansexpat russiansexpat is offline
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ahha!!
so did anybody tested different video fuffer sizes in multiplexing and then on standalone players?
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12-11-2003, 04:29 PM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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@kwag: I thought TMPGEnc's DVD Authoring Software allows to import Streams with KVCD GOP
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12-11-2003, 05:52 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose
@kwag: I thought TMPGEnc's DVD Authoring Software allows to import Streams with KVCD GOP
I don't remember that
Have you tried it

-kwag
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12-12-2003, 04:51 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Here's the thread...

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3416
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12-12-2003, 05:35 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellygoose
I forgot all about that
But I would follow the recommendations, and stick to a standard GOP size, so the KDVDs will play in every standalone player.
This way, the only thing different is the KVCD notch matrix, and even though it's a customized matrix, there was never a "fixed" matrix constraint for DVD compliancy. So KDVDs are 100% DVD compliant, if we stick with the max GOP size

-kwag
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12-12-2003, 06:30 AM
russiansexpat russiansexpat is offline
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Technical notes in B-Book specs for DVD Updated: July 21, 1996. It is written even there: "MP@ML has no GOP size restriction. In fact, the GOP() is considered to be an insignificant layer in MPEG-2. Instead the sequence() layer serves as the most important boundary in the generic MPEG sense. "
Maybe restrictions on video buffer size are more important?
What are they?
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12-12-2003, 06:53 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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GOP size max 36 fields or 18 frames (NTSC)
max 30 fields or 15 frames (PAL)

http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Video.html

-kwag
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  #12  
12-12-2003, 07:06 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
But I would follow the recommendations, and stick to a standard GOP size, so the KDVDs will play in every standalone player.
Lucky you
You can do that because you are in NTSC area and you do not suffer too much from the limitation (18 insteed of 24 that we use generally for KVCD).
But in PAL, that's a complete different story ! Using 15 insteed of 25 lead to a big difference in file size !

What about using 18 for PAL ? As players handle this value for NTSC, 18 seems to be "not so out of the standard" even in PAL. What do you think ?
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12-12-2003, 07:41 AM
Jellygoose Jellygoose is offline
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Someone should try that ASAP... I'd like to know too!
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12-12-2003, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DialHot
NTSC, 18 seems to be "not so out of the standard" even in PAL.
It speaks for itself its out of standard and so you have to decide for yourself what to choose.

My recommendation:
- IF breaking the standards, go and encode using 24max / KVCD specs. ... But this will result in a less range of player which will accept this. Cause 18 on PAL already breaks the Std. and so if you don't care about Calories at least choose someting deliciuos to eat
But maybe 18 on PAL gives a smaller risk?! And thats what I think you want to assume with your question.
Its the same thing If we use 480x480 on PAL cause its a std. NTSC resolution to get more compression.

- IF keeping Std. ... well you know the answer ... 100% Player compatibility but less compression.

So choose your weapon...

@ JellyGoose
This would end up in a new Compatibility chart where almost everybody should provide his result which would give us all an average
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  #15  
12-12-2003, 07:54 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
It speaks for itself its out of standard and so you have to decide for yourself what to choose.
For sure it is ! But the player handle a GOP of 18 for NTSC resolutions. So they have the capabilities to cope with such GOP. 24 is other the standard in both NTSC and PAL. That's why it seems to me that 18 can be acceptable also for PAL. It's just an idea

EDIT: you edited your post while I was typing mine .
You added :

Quote:
But maybe 18 on PAL gives a smaller risk?! And thats what I think you want to assume with your question.
Its the same thing If we use 480x480 on PAL cause its a std. NTSC resolution to get more compression.
Yes, tht's exactly what I wanted to suggest

Quote:
- IF keeping Std. ... well you know the answer ... 100% Player compatibility but less compression.
I don't mind converting all my movies in NTSC. I never do it for KVCD because the gain is not so important. But in the case of a KDVD...
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12-12-2003, 08:19 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I don't mind converting all my movies in NTSC. I never do it for KVCD because the gain is not so important. ...
Well it really gave me an advantage in cases of Movies which defenitely didn't fit one one CD by archiving a CQ at least more than 60.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
.... But in the case of a KDVD...
What's your challange DialHot?
Trying to get as most movies fitting on one DVD-R as you can ... also to break "in that case of DVD-R" the Moviecount value.

Well, if you get a DVD Burner (I don't know if you already got one) the first time you'll keep trying the "burn on that baby as much as it supports" to keep even there pushing the limits.
And suddenly you think this DVD-R burning and encoding way will be my way to give a main focus to quality.
(Ok thats my little story, and also many of my encodings do base on captures)
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12-12-2003, 09:04 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
What's your challange DialHot?
Trying to get as most movies fitting on one DVD-R as you can ... also to break "in that case of DVD-R" the Moviecount value.
In fact I do not plan to put more than one movie per DVD (except perhaps for a movie and it's sequel like Blair wich project I and II for instance).

But what I do currently is TV shows. I use to put one complete season of 24 ep (22 min each) on 4 KVCD. That make 4x810 = 3240 Mo and the quality is widely enought for that kind of program.

On a KDVD I will have 1000 Mo more. So I have two choices :
- use the standard GOP (15) and the 1000 Mo will be used by the loose in compression. The quality won't change a lot (even if shorter GOP = better quality)
- use the KVCD GOP (25) and my CQ_VBR will raise (actually I use 18, I'll can surely go up to 20). So the picture will be better.

By using a GOP of 18, I can find a solution in the middle of the two above.

Quote:
Well, if you get a DVD Burner (I don't know if you already got one)
Soon, very soon

Quote:
And suddenly you think this DVD-R burning and encoding way will be my way to give a main focus to quality.
That is also why I do not want to put more than one movie per DVD. My idea in making KDVD is to go from [480*576 - MIN 64 - MAX 2300] I use for KVCD to [704*576 - MIN 300 - MAX 6000].
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  #18  
12-12-2003, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
....And suddenly you think this DVD-R burning and encoding way will be my way to give a main focus to quality.
That is also why I do not want to put more than one movie per DVD. My idea in making KDVD is to go from [480*576 - MIN 64 - MAX 2300] I use for KVCD to [704*576 - MIN 300 - MAX 6000].
As we use the NOTCH on KDVD encodings its not (really) nedded to go above 5000kbits at max. I very often do lower the max in case of a letterboxed KDVD to 4000-5000kbit and high bitrate peaks still come out nice. But sometimes KDVD is a good choice where we can also focus on anamorph encodings and there 5000kbit is perfect.
300min, .... well in case of KDVD 704x576 I every time set the min to 800kbit, I just figured out last week when I was re-encoding LOTR2 that at the beginning when the picture is almost dark ... the very little Parts within the almost black screen where you can see fire do come out a little blocky .. a jump to min=800 fixed that.

In case of buying a DVD Burner choose one of a brand where Firmwareupdates are well and fast provided... this lets you enjoy using cheaper DVD Medias which will be supported without problems.
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  #19  
12-12-2003, 11:07 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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[quote="incredible"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
But sometimes KDVD is a good choice where we can also focus on anamorph encodings
That's true ! I didn't think about that.

Quote:
and there 5000kbit is perfect.
Why in this case ? Anormorphic target means more picture to encode, so greater need in bandwith. So why to limit in this case is more benefit than when encoding in 4:3 ?

Quote:
In case of buying a DVD Burner choose one of a brand where Firmwareupdates are well and fast provided... this lets you enjoy using cheaper DVD Medias which will be supported without problems.
Oh no ! My long time computer experience (15 years) tells me to trust known, reputed brands. I will buy a Pioneer DVR-106.
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  #20  
12-12-2003, 11:41 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
and there 5000kbit is perfect.
Why in this case ? Anormorphic target means more picture to encode, so greater need in bandwith. So why to limit in this case is more benefit than when encoding in 4:3 ?
I meant these values in case of my choosen bitrates: 4000-5000 in case of Letterboxed streams and not lower than 5000 in case of anamorph streams, ... based on the reason you just explained well above

Quote:
Oh no ! My long time computer experience (15 years) tells me to trust known, reputed brands. I will buy a Pioneer DVR-106.
And that's what I meant! Get this one its awesome.
I got an "old" *lol* DVR-105 on my own ... it "eats" and handles almost every cheap media, well provided Firmware updates on PioneerModels BUT ... (in case of mine 105) not able to overburn in CD-R Mode maybe they fixed that on the 106 model now.
These Pioneer Models are very well supported by most apps (and updates) internal Burning capabilities, .... except VCDeasy.
And you can find them all over the world ... I do not know if they still implementate it in the newer G5's, but all Apple G4's came with Pioneer DVD Writing devices.
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