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  #1  
04-13-2010, 11:25 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
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Quote:
earlier today i went to google and typed in a question i always wanted answered...what encoder does dvd shrink use?...i had a time finding any answer but i found one, and it was 5 or 6 yrs old and it was in here answered by you....you posted a link and a brief explanation of what dvd shrink does to a dvd to make it smaller but the link you posted is dead...i wondered if u have another link that explains the process or you could tell me what it does
thanx
moontrash
I asked what the link was, to jog my memory. It was 5-6 years ago, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontrash
here's the old videohelp thread with the question and your answer http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...ompress-movies

what about other apps liek dvdfab/dvd2one/anydvd...do these do the same thing as shrink or do they actually have their own encoder?

i've done 3 or 4 comparison tests over the years and i've wanted to know this question forever but just never thought to ask

thanx
moontrash
I'm going to back up a bit here, and address this quote: "what encoder does dvd shrink use?"

DVD Shrink doesn't use an encoder. Again, just to be clear: DVD Shrink DOES NOT USE AN ENCODER.

DVD Shrink uses a transcode method to essentially simplify and re-write the math equations that are used to encode the video. The side effect of this mathematical manipulation is that it can be used to "shrink" the file size of the video data. Now, I'm a journalist and media specialist, not a math whiz, so the exact process of how this works is best left to others. For example, the link you refer to is a white paper written by Susan Wee of HP Labs some 13 years ago, and discusses the fundamental process of MPEG-2 transcoding. That's the link you were looking for, and the inevitable redo of HP's site seems to have displaced those papers. I've re-archived them here for you: How Transcoding MPEG Video (DVD Shrinking) Works. (URL= http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/show...ideo-2177.html)

DVD Shrink is not using another encoder, it was it's own application. The creator of DVD Shrink was rumored to have been hired by Ahead Software (owners of Nero), to create one of the first versions of Nero Recode. It's been suggested in several forums recently that mrbass was DVD Shrink's creator, but I don't think that's the case, that sounds like web-myth retconning.

DVD Shrink also had the (poorly-implemented) ability to DeCSS and remove copy protection from DVDs, but skilled users knew better. The encryption removing feature seemed like an afterthought feature, and the program was best used for the sole task of "shrinking". Even when it was new software, with regular updates, it had trouble ripping DVDs.

Because transcoding is an abusive process, you should NEVER USE IT ON HOMEMADE DVDs!! The ability to transcode is limited by the bit rate allocation of the source, and works best on commercial/retail sources that have excess bitrate. Or used on DVDs that have enough bitrate that the added compression of a transcode does not overly harm and degrade the DVD image quality. Homemade DVDs generally have poor quality consumer sources (DV cameras, TV recordings, etc), and cannot be shrunk without major quality loss. By "quality loss", I refer to visible macroblocking and other DVD MPEG artifacts.

Transcoding is a very lossy method, as compared to a full decode/re-encode by a true MPEG encoder.


Now to address the software you mentioned...

DVD2One has it's own proprietary transcoding method, as I'm sure DVD Fab does. DVD Shrink routinely whipped the quality of DVD2One, although some of the most recent versions now use higher-quality methods similar to DVD Shrink. It gets maybe one update per year for about 5 years now, as the tool reached full maturity ages ago.

Honestly, I've not looked into transcoding research heavily for several years now, because the technology had pretty much peaked years ago.
  • DVD Shrink was a top-quality DVD transcoder, and
  • DVD Rebuilder was a top-quality DVD re-encoder. DVD Rebuilder used an external full encoder, such as the freeware MPEG encoders QuEnc or HCEnc, or a commercial encoder like Procoder or CinemaCraft Encoder (CCE).
Although DVDFab has premium versions that can transcode, that program became popular as a post-DVD Decrypter era free DVD ripper.

AnyDVD is purely an encryption disabler. It doesn't rip, transcode or encode, but rather enables other programs to do those tasks. AnyDVD is a filter between the disc and other video editor software.

There are many retail DVDs that simply cannot be shrunk without looking like garbage. These are usually TV show box sets, including Married With Children, the Pokemon shows, Garfield & Friends, some of the Stargate SG-1 seasons, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 80s cartoons, and Thundercats ... just to name a few. For creating a backup for those, you're best to either buy another copy or use a Verbatim DVD+R DL blank.


Something more to consider...

I've never been big on copying DVDs. While it is a fragile format, I reserve copying for rare discs that are hard to replace, be it due to obscurity (example: limited-run foreign releases), out of print status (OOP), etc. Mass-produced movie DVDs like The Matrix or Ghostbusters are easy to replace, but that seems to be what so many people backup.

I don't approve of "backing up" Netflix or Blockbuster, that's just a waste of time. If you want to watch it another time, rent it again. Or just buy it. Sales of DVDs, after all, is what tells a studio that consumers like something, and encourages
  • more releases of their older back catalogs of yet-unreleased videos,
  • creation of more direct-to-DVD releases, such as the many Marvel and DC Comics animated movies from the past 3-4 years.
I just thought this needed to be mentioned.

I've never liked the fact that some of my advice may be used by people who want to amass giant DVD collections with a Netflix subscription and a pack of cheap blank DVDs.


Hope this has helped you. And thanks for bringing that dead link to my attention.


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Last edited by lordsmurf; 04-13-2010 at 12:04 PM.
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  #2  
04-13-2010, 12:33 PM
moontrash moontrash is offline
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sorry about the anydvd question. I meant to ask about CloneDvd's encoder, as they are the same company I got the 2 mixed up. Anydvd has been my primary decrypter for years and have never had any issues with it.

as for DvdFab, I mentioned I've done quite a few comparisons over the years and DvdFab may be a free decrypting utility buts its dvd shrinking ability is terrible. The quality to say the least is bad. Even old Dvd2One v 1.52 looks a sight better than it does. I won't complain too much about them though as I only use them one in a while for a stray title I have issues with on other applications.

I'm guilty of a big dvd collection but not guilty of newer easily had titles(or as I like to call, throw away titles). All my stuff or 95% of it are foreign and hard to find releases. there a quite a few out there who do the Netflix thing(not me) but the stuff i look for they dont have normally, so I'll let others spend their $15 a month with them. Now if SSD's could reach 1 tb and i could rip my collection ot em and store em away, it would save me quite a bit of space LOL

thanx for the great explanation LordS, it certainly helped my inquisitive mind



moontrash
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04-13-2010, 08:06 PM
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CloneDVD should be using it's own coding too. In fact, there was something special about CloneDVD. It's been 5-6 years now, and it may have changed since that time, but I recall CloneDVD being part re-encoder, part transcoder. Maybe it decoded the video fully, and then used that data to transcode?

It was a good competing product to DVD Shrink, in terms of quality. (It loss majorly in terms of pricing, see how DVD Shrink was free.)

A big complaint was that it took longer than the other programs, but it was revealed to have been doing something special during those minutes, it wasn't a case of simply being slow.

I'm not a fan of multi-task software. Most all programs are good at one thing, and everything else is an afterthought. Examples:
  • IE in Windows (Paint, WordPad, etc)
  • video encoding in Ulead DVDWS2 (or most authoring programs)
  • ... okay that was a short list, but in my defense I'm tired.
Glad to help.

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04-14-2010, 09:48 AM
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That explains why "real" re-encoder apps like Dvd Rebuilder and others that use CCE or HCenc take so long. It always stumped me why the time difference was so wide. I figured the quality or Nero Recode/Dvd Shrink wasnt gna be that of Dvd Rebuilder w/ HcEnc or CCE but i did many comparison tests and some screen shot differences were nominal at best. I thought,"oh well", I'll save some time and keep using Recode(which i have been for 6 years). I will admit to using Rebuilder for heavy compression discs but 99% goes thru Recode. I haven't used CloneDvd in years as at one time they had issues and bugs, on top of that the flexibility isn't there but i have tried it.

I guess it all comes down to each individuals eye or preference.

BTW Lord, can you recommend me an authoring app with a decent encoder? I've been using TMPG for years and i want to try one with a decent quality encoder. Hopefully one thats brain dead simple as TMPG is. I've noticed little things in my encodes with it over the years but nvr thought anything about it. Saw over at videohelp users who complain about its quality. Wondered if there was a decent app that gets or gives, good results.

mt11
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04-14-2010, 09:54 AM
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Which TMPG do you refer to?
  • TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 MPEG Encoder
  • TMPGEnc Xpress 4 Encoder
  • TMPGEnc DVD Author 1, 2 or 3
  • TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4 (continuation of TDA)

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04-14-2010, 10:10 AM
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# TMPGEnc DVD Author 1, 2 or 3
# TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4 (continuation of TDA)
i've used these the most. As the versions get newer i try each and eventually use the newest version as it gets updated

would be nice if there were one with the flexibility and ease of use of TMPG aw and maybe the CCE or HcEnc
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04-14-2010, 10:23 AM
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So you've been using TDA and TAW for not just authoring, but you've been letting it encode the video for you too, all in one pass?

Please confirm that.

CCE and HCEnc are inferior to MainConcept, and even some implementations of multi-pass FFMPEG.

Ideally you want to use one program for one task, otherwise you run into major quality AND speed issues, not to mention secondary problems like compliance and asset control.

Will reply with more when I get some time later in the week. Your question seems simple, but requires a somewhat lengthy and semi-complex answer, to be a good answer. I'm not going to say "Use ConvertXToDVD" or some chicken-crap response like you tend to find on a lot of free amateur-only forums (TSG comes to mind). While ConvertXToDVD is great for certain things, I don't think it's the proper tool for this conversation. However, I'll cover it and similar software, with examination on when it should be used.

Again, confirm question.

Maybe this should be a new topic, too, if you don't mind.
Go start a new post.
It's getting kind of far away from DVD Shrink and transcoding now.

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04-14-2010, 12:19 PM
moontrash moontrash is offline
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I'll start a new topic over at the authoring section of the forum. I can't believe I'm getting all these questions I've wanted to know the answers to, and never could get a straight answer anywhere else, answered. I should have joined this forum a long time ago.

confirmed..i use tmpg DA (AW) to author and encode the video at the same time

will post all u need to know in the new thread...thanx mr. admin
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