What authoring program accepts high-bitrate MPEG-2 videos?

unclescoob · #1 10-02-2011, 10:31 PM

LordSmurf (and/or someone just as knowledgeable who could offer a word, please)

I am currently encoding some of my 24-minute episodes at 30,000kbps (highest), 2-pass vbr with HcEnc.

The bitrate is obviously very high, but the dvd-compliant 9800kbps option was showing a noticeable amount of pixelation and artifacts on the encoded video (not too bad, but noticeable). After alot of testing with various bitrates, 20 to 30 thousand seems to be the level that actually makes my cleaned-up video look good.

Now, I don't mind the limitation of only being able to fit 2 or 3 episodes per dvd, as I am planning on using a DVD-R with more space than the 4.7gb. Each episode turns out to be approx 1.6g if encoded this way.

Any advice on the authoring software I should use that would accept this?

Am I setting myself up for failure here?

admin · #2 10-03-2011, 03:02 AM

None that I'm aware of. That bitrate exceeds allowed DVD-Video specs and is an illegal value. The reason behind a bitrate maximum is based on physics, and the maximum amount of bandwidth available when a disc is played at a certain speeds. (I believe that 2x is the rate.)

If you want to save MPEG-2 as high bitrate, it will have to be dumped to disc as data only. Some DVD players can play the files.

A home theater box like the Western Digital WDTV will play files from a thumb/flash drive or hard drive. I use HP flash drives and Seagate portable drives in my WDTV. Files I want to watch are copied to the drives. I archive the files permanently on discs. This does take extra work on your part, but to me it's not an issue if the video is infrequently watched.

unclescoob · #3 10-03-2011, 10:07 AM

See, that's the thing that I can't understand about these encoders. For instance, I have the Mainconcept Reference trial (as I'm considering purchasing it soon). When encode my AVI as DVD-Compliant MPEG, the results look decent, but with some minor artifacts (at the highest allowed bitrate, 9800k).

But when I encoded the same video with High Quality Mpeg at 100,000kbps (which results in a 6 or so gig MPEG-2 file), the results were GORGEOUS. Identical to my source. The price I pay? The file is completely useless for DVD authoring.

Same thing with HcEnc. I tried DVD compliant encoding with ok results. I then burned at 30,000kbps (around a 1.6gig file, MUCH smaller than MainConcept's at the same high-quality) and results were superb.

Some files require higher bitrates than the DVD-compliant max, and I'm sure we all know this. I really wanted to make an official DVD, not just dump the file on disc and call it a day.

So basically, my options are either keep an "ok"-looking video (made by a high quality encoder, mind you) and make an official DVD OR...take a gorgeous (yet cursed with high-bitrate) video and just treat it like the stepchild of video?

Orr.......hmmm (lightbulb flash) what if I burn to Blu-Ray?

lordsmurf · #4 10-03-2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

When encode my AVI as DVD-Compliant MPEG, the results look decent, but with some minor artifacts (at the highest allowed bitrate, 9800k).

It's probably an issue with your settings. A new guide is being written, and will be online later this week, going over proper DVD-Video encoding specs when using MainConcept Reference v2.x

Quote:

But when I encoded the same video with High Quality Mpeg at 100,000kbps (which results in a 6 or so gig MPEG-2 file), the results were GORGEOUS. Identical to my source. The price I pay? The file is completely useless for DVD authoring.

That's a HD MPEG-2 bitrate, so it shouldn't really be used. It's massive overkill, more than 4x the best possible scenario (25Mbps) for standard definition MPEG-2 VBR long-GOP encodes.

Quote:

Orr.......hmmm (lightbulb flash) what if I burn to Blu-Ray?

Stay tuned. That's something being worked on here, too. Burners and discs on the way.

unclescoob · #5 10-03-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Stay tuned. That's something being worked on here, too. Burners and discs on the way.

Would I lose quality if I burned my current high-bitrate to blu-ray though? Just overall curiosity.

lordsmurf · #6 10-03-2011, 11:26 AM

I think your current files are illegal specs for Blu-ray -- far too high @ 100Mbps.

unclescoob · #7 10-03-2011, 11:27 AM

So then why is that option even available?

lordsmurf · #8 10-03-2011, 11:29 AM

Screencap the preset for me.
Going off memory, 100Mbps is valid for HD MPEG-2 specs, but not Blu-ray.
And while it's possible for SD MPEG-2, it's not legal for anything at all -- not even broadcasting.

You can probably do it, just because it's possible. But I doubt there's a preset for it.

My own encoding system is busy right now, can't open MainConcept to look.

unclescoob · #9 10-03-2011, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

100Mbps is valid for HD MPEG-2 specs, but not Blu-ray.

And of course, HD Mpeg-2 DVDs are obsolete.

lordsmurf · #10 10-03-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclescoob

And of course, HD Mpeg-2 DVDs are obsolete.

Not at all.

HD-DVD is an obsolete format (because Sony bribed their way into making Blu-ray the "winner" of the HD optical format wars).
But MPEG-2 is not the same thing.

Blu-ray uses both MPEG-2 and AVC/AVCHD (H.264 subset). That's for SD and HD resolutions.

It's just that your bitrate (at minimum, ignoring GOP and profile settings) is simply not a legal value for any standardized format.

unclescoob · #11 10-03-2011, 11:42 AM

Just out of curiosity, would turning my Mpeg-2 into H264 for blu-ray cause a significant loss of quality? I understand that encoding to any other format always results in quality loss, whether the human eye can detect it or not.

However, in this particular case, logic tells me that by converting Mpeg-2 to H264, all I am really doing is allocating more space for my video to look it's best (as it did when I upped it at high bitrates). I'm sorry Smurf, I know this discussion is more for the encoding thread. I feel like I'm overdoing it with questions now, but a brief answer to this will question will shut my trap for the day.

unclescoob · #12 10-03-2011, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Blu-ray uses both MPEG-2 and AVC/AVCHD (H.264 subset). That's for SD and HD resolutions.

What if I encode my video at 30,000kbps instead. Would I be able to author to HD-DVD with the appropriate program then? And would I be able to play it on a blu-ray player?

lordsmurf · #13 10-03-2011, 11:53 AM

You're mixing up terms.

MPEG-2 = video format
HD-DVD = dead (DOA) optical video format based on MPEG-2 and H.264
Blu-ray = HD/SD optical video format based on MPEG-2 and AVC/AVCHD (H.264)

Forget about HD-DVD.

I don't know all the specs off-hand like I do for DVD-Video, so I can't promise 30Mbps MPEG-2 is valid for SD video.
It's valid for HD video, I know that -- but I forget about SD specs.

You may not incur visual loss by encoding down from 100Mbps to 30Mbps, for SD MPEG-2. No, no visual loss. I doubt it. Would look about the same. In fact, I'd suggest going all the way down to 20Mbps if you want. That's a typical mezzanine MPEG-2 format used by studios and authoring houses.

I don't have all the facts and figures of BD-R committed to brain space yet. I have to refer to docs and software that's currently tied up an unavailable.

Do you have blank BD-R media, or a Blu-ray burner yet?

unclescoob · #14 10-03-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'd suggest going all the way down to 20Mbps if you want. That's a typical mezzanine MPEG-2 format used by studios and authoring houses.

I thought it was kbps, not mbps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Do you have blank BD-R media, or a Blu-ray burner yet?

No, not as of yet.

lordsmurf · #15 10-03-2011, 12:01 PM

20Mbps = 20000Kbps

unclescoob · #16 10-03-2011, 12:08 PM

Ok...this is too juicy. Just one more question and THAT IS IT for the day Sir Smurf! (I know I said this before, but this is it. I'm gonna contain myself)....here goes:

You said that most authoring houses usually use 20Mbps, and advised me to do that. I'm sure that if I encode at 20Mbps I will defnitely get amazing results. No doubt about it. So now...CAN I author this for DVD? *crosses fingers in hopes of hearing something relatively promising*

lordsmurf · #17 10-03-2011, 12:51 PM

No.

The max valid bitrate for DVD-Video is 9.8Mbps or 10.08Mbps, depending on audio specs.

The 20Mbps range is for mezzanine/intermediary specs, to create "sub-master" files useful for other purposes.
For example, as submission for iTunes pre-encoding specs.

You can store 20Mbps video on a disc, but it may not play in anything. (Some MPEG-ISO aware DVD players do support high bitrates.)

unclescoob · #18 10-03-2011, 01:03 PM

*sigh* ok.

Well, in any event, I'll look out for those guides on DVD-Specs with Mainconcept.

By the way Smurf, based on prior discussions we've had (specifically when I'd swear by Windows DVD Maker). After flirting with Mainconcept's trialware and learning how to work with HcEnc, I now look back and laugh at myself for it. Yes, I've moved on to roll with the big boys of encoding, and stopped finagling with toys.

Steve(MS) · #19 10-04-2011, 08:13 PM

I have read that one can "lie" in the header and DVD WS will pass it through untouched.
Though I don't know what will happen if a dvd is authored w/ultra bitrate whether it will play or not.
Then I have authored 3 SD dvd movies onto one blu-ray disc.
The only thing that is changed is the authoring package changes so it will be blu-ray compliant, it is still MPEG, basically
dvd format wrapped for bluray.
If it were me and I wanted high bitrate.... I would try a converter to high def...though once again have no clue
what such encoding will do with a chaotic non-compressed AVI such as from a computer capture.
There are several converters that can take high def, such as a blu-ray and compress it down either to dvd or other containers and the pic quality looks really good.
Perhaps try one and output to MKV,MP4 or blu-ray (m2ts) and see what you think....yet I haven't seen anyone mentioning
a high def capable converter for vhs.
Saw a post that Main Concept is blurry at default setting.....

lordsmurf · #20 10-09-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve(MS)

I have read that one can "lie" in the header and DVD WS will pass it through untouched.

Correct.

I've done this, although I try to avoid it. DVDWS2 has a specific limitation on menus, where only 4:3 can be used.

If you want to hack around with the input (and again on output), you can crate 16:9 menus if you just really need widescreen that bad.
This can also be done to allow illegal resolutions, such as 480x480 or 544x480.
I've never tried it, but I would bet it can be done to falsify bitrates, too.

Restream is the perfect tool for discombobulating (re-combobulating) your MPEG-2 videos this way. I use Restream regularly to fix 16:9 headers on TV recorded on a Philips DVD recorder.

Quote:

Though I don't know what will happen if a dvd is authored w/ultra bitrate whether it will play or not.

It probably won't play. DVD players already don't like high bitrate spikes from Panasonic DVD recorders, CCE and TMPGEnc Plus.

Quote:

If it were me and I wanted high bitrate.... I would try a converter to high def...

SD specs are supported within Blu-ray.

Quote:

Saw a post that Main Concept is blurry at default setting.....

I'd have to read more about that. A lot of MainConcept hate is from the price, combined with wrong choices of settings. MainConcept is a horrible resizer, blurry and/or blocky, so there's a chance whoever complained was trying to let the encoder handle tasks better suited for a straight editor (like Adobe Premiere, or even VirtualDub).