Quantcast Pioneer CLD 97 LaserDisc player not as sharp - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
08-16-2011, 12:40 PM
Jpass992 Jpass992 is offline
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I purchased a Pioneer CLD 97 off of ebay last month for $400. Since I still watch LD's ocassionally, I wanted something that I could use as a backup for my Pioneer CLD D701. I recently had my Pioneer CLD D701 repaired by Bayview Electronics, and it still works fine. However, when I got this CLD 97, it seems that the picture quality isn't as sharp as my CLD D701. I even have it running through the HDMI output of my JVC HM DT100U DVHS deck. I use both S Video on both machines, but for some reason, the image on the D701 seems to be alot sharper than the CLD 97. Does anyone think that the CLD 97 needs to be serviced? All functions of the machine seem to work perfectly, even the auto flip mechanism. Anybody who can help please write back.
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08-19-2011, 09:08 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpass992 View Post
I purchased a Pioneer CLD 97 off of ebay last month for $400. Since I still watch LD's ocassionally, I wanted something that I could use as a backup for my Pioneer CLD D701. I recently had my Pioneer CLD D701 repaired by Bayview Electronics, and it still works fine. However, when I got this CLD 97, it seems that the picture quality isn't as sharp as my CLD D701. I even have it running through the HDMI output of my JVC HM DT100U DVHS deck. I use both S Video on both machines, but for some reason, the image on the D701 seems to be alot sharper than the CLD 97. Does anyone think that the CLD 97 needs to be serviced? All functions of the machine seem to work perfectly, even the auto flip mechanism. Anybody who can help please write back.
I thought CLD 70* series is considered to have sharper image than any other models. I myself have CLD-D703. So I don't know what specs. I guess it never hurts to send it out to Duncan for check up and tune up.

Also I wouldn't be using S-Video out of LD players. Their S-Video output is inferior to even the ones in receivers and TVs. Use composite.

--Leonid
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  #3  
08-19-2011, 10:21 AM
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Composite vs s-video has been discussed in other threads (especially look for posts by markatisu or tranzor), if you search the forums a bit. Generally speaking, yes, you want composite. Laserdisc is a composite video format -- unlike VHS, which is stored as separate luma and chroma data (which is why VHS and most tape formats in general look best via s-video output). LD s-video often suffers from distortions, namely awful dot crawl artifacts.

However, there are a few (very few) really nice LD players that had exceptional comb filters. I don't own one of these players, nor do I remember those model numbers off-hand, but I do have conversion work from several sources, and can confirm the s-video output is impressive -- visually better than composite on the same player. So it's helpful to know the abilities of your specific player. There are exceptions to the rule. Your "good" player may be one of those specific models.

The rule, of course, is as stated: ONLY USE COMPOSITE for Laserdisc player output.

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  #4  
08-19-2011, 11:22 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I also own LD-S2 LD player. Is its comb filter superior?
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  #5  
08-19-2011, 12:17 PM
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There are several posts on this site that mention specific models. I'd have to search, too, as I don't recall specific threads off-hand. Do a quick forum search for "laserdisc comb" and see what comes back at you. Markatisu and Tranzor are good sources of information here, long-time online friends and fellow video hobbyists.

On another site, somebody I know and trust (a retired broadcast engineer), posted this some years ago:

Quote:
I transfer laserdisc to DVD quite a bit. The video noise reduction in my JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder does a very good job on laserdisc noise. Also, I don't use the s-video output from my Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player because the composite video signal clearly looks better. Laserdisc is in fact a composite analog video source, and the Y/C must be separated by a comb filter to create the s-video output from a LD player. The comb filter in my 10 year old Pioneer player is definitely inferior to the modern 3 line motion adaptive filter that is in my DVD recorder. This is true of Pioneer Elite models, too. The comb filters from 10 years ago simply are not as good as what is available today. I run the LD player composite video all the way through my proc amp and image detailer to the DVD recorder, and let it do the luma and chroma separation. I get outstanding results this way.

If you use the s-video output of your LD player you will likey have dot crawl and other Y/C separation artifacts. If you capture with a typical computer video card and let it split the Y/C, you are probably going to have the same problem. Name brand DVD recorders all have excellent comb filters and will provide nearly flawless Y/C separation of composite video sources for you.

The last LD player Pioneer made, the DVL-919 DVD/LD (Elite version was DVL-91) combination unit, has a very good Y/C filter and reduces laserdisc noise effectively. However, the picture is too soft for capturing. The CLD-D704 has a much more detailed and sharper image via the composite output than the DVL-919. There is an industrial model Pioneer LD-V8000 that is built like a tank and provides a very detailed composite signal, too. These were $2000 machines when they were new, and they don't even "flip" the disc. They can be had on eBay pretty cheap because they don't have AC3 RF out, etc.
Along with this one (from same person) from another thread:

Quote:
This is why I maintain the composite signal out of my CLD-D704 through my video processors and then let my JVC DVD recorder do the Y/C splitting. It has an excellent 3D motion adaptive filter that is far superior to the comb filter in the LD player.
The general consensus is this:

Method 1: LD player > TBC > DVD recorder
Method 2: LD player > good VCR or DVD recorder (used as passthrough for comb filter) > TBC > computer capture card
Method 3: LD player with good s-video output > TBC > digital capture/recording device

Note that the TBC is more for security of knowing the signal is pure, not necessarily because the LD player is outputting unstable or asynchronous video signal quality.

RCA DVD recorders come highly suggested for passthrough.
And then, of course, so do the JVC S-VHS VCR, and that includes the low-end models (3800, 4800, etc).
This is NOT a scenario where Panasonic ES DVD recorders are desirable -- those are used for other passthrough workflows.

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  #6  
08-19-2011, 02:02 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The Panasonic AG-1980 also advertises a built in 3D comb filter. The guys over a AVSForum seem to be very fond of the dedicated Entech CVSI-1 (component out), SVSI-1 (S-video out), and Crystal Vision VPS-1 units.
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  #7  
08-19-2011, 04:38 PM
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NJ, do you (or have you) worked with Laserdiscs? I always forget which members of this site have worked with that format. At some point in time, I'll be adding myself to that list, as I'm expecting an LD player later this year from somebody -- purely for the purpose of researching LD more in depth in conjunction with various capture cards and DVD recorders.

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  #8  
08-19-2011, 04:50 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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lordsmurf, once I am done digitizing my LDs, I will be getting rid of my LD-S2 which is the 2nd to best player was ever made.

--Leonid
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  #9  
08-22-2011, 10:43 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I couldn't find composite vs s-video thread, so I will add another $.02 here.

Why would anyone want the special dedicated device to do Y/C separation? Why not take LaserDisc, record it into DV avi or Huffyuv AVI (even better) using composite as is (i.e. without any filters) and then use all the filters in AVISynth. I browsed through AVI synth filters and noticed that there are a few comb filters for removing dot crawls there. It is very logical to think, that when it comes to analyzing previous frames to make decision on the current frame what parts to filter, post capture filters are much better quality. Simply because realtime filters have to do the job at 29.97 or 25 fps as opposed to post capture filters don't have to be quick. And plus post capture filters can look at the (multiple) frames ahead and at multiple frames behind... Just my $.02.

--Leonid
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  #10  
08-22-2011, 11:16 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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There are times where hardware trumps software, comb filters are one area. The damage is already done by a cheap/unknown comb filter when you capture. Why spend all kinds of time with a software filter trying to fix the damage when professional grade hardware exists that does a superior job?
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  #11  
08-22-2011, 11:32 PM
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There is one very common scenario I can think of: proc amps.
Trying to use a proc amp with a composite connection is somewhat of a nightmare, because the composited luminance and chrominance mashed together into a single signal makes independent luma/chroma value changes near-impossible. Tweaking one commonly affects the other, and in detrimental ways. This site used to have a guide on it, complete with sample images and video clips. (It was taken down due to a botched hack job, with the intention of being restored, but it just never happened as planned. It's on the Q4 2011 list, however, for the new site!)

Ideally you want to feed hardware processors separated luma/chroma signals, via s-video or component. And while software is good at many things, and can do certain things not really possible in hardware, the inverse is true also. You cannot fix certain errors in software, or not as well.

Video has many rules, each with many exceptions. There are times when composite is best, and many more times when it is not. You have to be wise, if your goal is high-quality video. The source, content and workflows all determine the settings and methods required to achieve that goal.

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  #12  
08-23-2011, 10:43 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I will do 5 capture tests. I will be using my elite Pioneer LD-S2 player with no noise reductions for playback. I will use LifeView FlyVideo 3000 capture card to capture into 704x480 Huffyuv avi. Again absolutely no noise reduction.

1. Plug composite directly from LD-S2 to the capture card.
2. Plug S-Video directly from LD-S2 to the capture card.
3. Plug composite to the input of multisystem S-VHS VCR JVC HR-S5700. And run S-Video from the VCR to my capture card.
4. Same as 3 but instead of the VCR I will use elite Pioneer receiver VSX-74TXVi.
5. Pug composite from LD-S2 into the S-Video adapter and plug the adapter to S-video input of the capture card. Just for the hell of it. Will post results (5 snapshots) in a few days.
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  #13  
08-27-2011, 09:25 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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You guys are right, but not quite. I made a few different captures as I described above:

LD->Composite->Capture Card
LD->Composite->Pioneer Elite Receiver->S-Video->Capture Card
LD->Composite->JVC VCR->S-Video->Capture Card
LD->Composite->Composite2SVideoAdapter
LD->S-Video->Capture card

LD->Composite->Composite2SVideoAdapter gives black & white image.

LD->Composite->Capture Card is the worst. It has huge dot crawls.

LD->Composite->Pioneer Elite Receiver->S-Video->Capture Card has tiny dot crawls, and not as sharp

LD->Composite->JVC VCR->S-Video->Capture Card has tiny dot crawls and the image is darker.

LD->S-Video->Capture card simply the best. NO DOT CRAWLS. Take a look.

Wish I knew before. Now will have to redo 3 LDs.

What do experts think?

CompositeDirect.JPG
CompositeDirect.JPG

JVCComposite2SVideo.JPG
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  #14  
08-27-2011, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
LD->Composite->JVC VCR->S-Video->Capture Card has tiny dot crawls and the image is darker.
I don't see it as being any darker or lighter.

Quote:
LD->Composite->Pioneer Elite Receiver->S-Video->Capture Card has tiny dot crawls, and not as sharp
Definitely not as sharp. I wonder if there is some NR going on here? It does appear cleaner.

Quote:
LD->S-Video->Capture card simply the best. NO DOT CRAWLS. Take a look.
Based on still images, I'd agree.

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  #15  
09-13-2011, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
NJ, do you (or have you) worked with Laserdiscs? I always forget which members of this site have worked with that format. At some point in time, I'll be adding myself to that list, as I'm expecting an LD player later this year from somebody -- purely for the purpose of researching LD more in depth in conjunction with various capture cards and DVD recorders.
Well, I can finally answer yes to this question. I just picked up a Pioneer DVL-909 at the thrift store. Pretty late model that has digital audio out, a built in comb filter (S-video out), double sided playback and the added bonus of playing DVDs. Plus it can play PAL and NTSC discs! It might not be an X0/X9... but the price was right.
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  #16  
09-18-2011, 05:23 AM
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I still don't have mine.

Not that I was in a hurry. I still have stacks of VHS tapes to convert, drives of videos to author and edit.
It's a process.

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