White DVDs unreliable in some recorders?

[kristoffo]

Quoting from my amazon review for Verbatim DVD-R 4.7GB 8X DataLifePlus White Inkjet Printable:

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2010 UPDATE. After several years of use, I have found one problem with "white label" (aka "inkjet printable") DVD's. We maintain about 50 open (non-finalized) movie DVD's for cable movies in our Panasonic DVD recorder. Sometimes, these open 'white' DVDs would fail to read. THIS HAPPENED WITH 2 DIFFERENT BRANDS OF "WHITE LABEL" DVD. We have no such problem with ordinary "grey label" DVD's. Yes it seems absurd that the color of the label might affect the recording...? Maybe it is that the "white label" discs are designed more for computer use, not movie recording? I don't know. I sure prefer the look of the white label, but sadly, we have stopped buying them--and consequently, have stopped having those "unreadable disc" disasters...

When I first posted this review in 2007, one previous reviewer reported a similar problem.

I would just like to know if you experts out there can think if a logical reason this might happen? Because I sure can't. Thank you.

[admin]

There's a number of theoretical reasons, but I don't know that any of them are very practical.

Probably 99% of the "My data disappeared." claims are actually misdiagnosed. The person making the claim generally did not inspect the disc after it was burned (TRT scans, physical inspection, playback/readback usage tests), and is simply assuming the burn was good when in fact it was never any good. So at least 9 times out of 10, I can easily respond with "No it didn't." though only about half of them want to accept this truth. The rest would rather bury their head in the sand, and insist the DVD goblin ate the data.

There are ways that discs can degrade "on their own" -- quoted because outside forces are actually at play, most of them environmental or due to lack of proper handling and storage.

The most crucial problems are

• excess humidity (homes/offices that are overly warm during wet seasons),
• smoke,
• micro-abrasions aka scratches invisible to the human eye, but troublesome for a laser lens eye

Remember that inkjet surfaces are mostly liquid-absorbent paper. Better than sticky labels, but still paper nonetheless. Inferior paper stock is a typical cause -- which anybody can find themselves with, even when you're careful (as a 30+ year old business that started in print media, trust me when I say that).

Paper can theoretically warp the mm-thick polycarbonate substrate layers adversely, as the label is essentially two separate firm layers attached with a bonding layer. And paper itself changes geometry from water absorption, thus passing along it's own warping into the disc shape (flatness %), in addition to physics between layers. It's not too unlike earthquakes and fault lines, if that helps to understand the consequences of friction between rigid objects.

If the disc was even marginally inaccurate for whatever reason (like a bad burner used with a good disc, or just a bad disc), then a slight geometry issue would make it unreadable. Storage issues can further damage geometry, as wallet and cheaply made "DVD cases" can warp the polycarbonate. So it could be two geometry-altering issues working tandem.

Bad discs are generally not a single issue for an average consumer (any non-archivist), but an accumulated set of problems that push a disc beyond the point of excellence.

And while I can explain how water, scratches, etc affects media, ultimately it was the user/consumer that put the disc in those conditions. So it's not really the disc that's to blame, but often the person. (Some may take that as a personal "attack" of some kind, but I'm just as guilty of this, as I store burned CDs in my car, which is a horrible place to keep discs. It's an accepted risk, however, as I want the convenience.)

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Another obvious error is that the DVD burner, player or recorder has aged beyond the ability to read the discs. That happens quite often. That may be the case here, too.

And it's very possible to only affect certain types of dye layers, or certain types of reflective layers. In theory, maybe even be unable to penetrate imperfect polycarbonate layers. That's why some discs may work, while others will not. Generally speaking, the cheapest discs are affected, not quality discs recommended as 1st Class on this sites's DVD media review.

--

So there's not just one logical reason, but many.

[kristoffo]

Thank you. This seems to be the moral of the story:

If you seem to be having trouble with certain DVD types or brands, and find a type that works, it might not be your imagination. Try always to buy that precise brand and type. And pray that the manufacturer does not change the process.

I actually find it amazing that we are able to maintain 50 "open" or "unfinalized" DVDs. I have no idea how this is made possible. I am not amazed that this has problems. I am more amazed that there are any disc types for which this is relatively problem-free. This seems to be the case.

By the way, I've recently discovered that we can easily attach a hard drive to our Dish Network DVR. Only problem is, I don't know if we can specify something equivalent to "long play" (reduced quality) as we do with a DVD recorder. If not, even a terrabyte drive might be more costly than burning to DVDs.

If I had my druthers, I would only save the utmost favorite operas, movies and documentaries. The remaining brain candy can always be rented from netfilx, in the rare event anyone wants to see them again. Unfortunately some of my family elders seem to have their meaning in life affected by having all these copies. Although in addition to taking time to find something if we do want to see it again, we are seldom certain that we actually have it, so it's really a joke in my humble opinion.

Hmmm. Fortunately my family is not fussy about quality. I think I will consider the following.

• Buy 3 terrabyte drives, 3 external USB casings, one software that "crunches" multiple movies.
• When one drive nears its capacity, hopefully after 3-6 months, replace it with an empty drive.
• Meanwhile take the first drive to the computer, delete the worst rubbish, and the rest gets crunched to 25% of original size, which hopefully retains 80% of quality and looks acceptable on a panoramic TV.
• "Archive" the crunchies to the third terrabyte drive. Which hopefully thus holds at least 1-2 years of movies, before we must buy a fourth and fifth.

PS. So-called "unlimited" online backup like carbonite is not a solution.

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Carbonite is online backup – not online storage. It is meant to be a backup of the files that are on your computer – not a place to store files in order to free up space on your hard drive. If you remove any file from your hard drive, we wait 30 days for you to recover it, and then we delete that file from our servers, too.

[lordsmurf]

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Try always to buy that precise brand and type.

Not entirely. Brand is secondary to the manufacturer. If you get stuck in the "brand name" mindset, you'll become victim to one of the many infamous bait-and-switches that have plagued the blank media world for years now. For example, when Verbatim introduced the "Life Series" and "Value Series" that were using second-rate media (CMC) instead of their own high quality Mitsubishi discs that built their reputation. That was the second time they've done this -- the first was during the 2x generation, and it was a temporary move after some backlash from the community. Maxell did it, too, when they ended production of their own media and moved to then-inferior RitekG05 junk.

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And pray that the manufacturer does not change the process.

Processes don't really change much. It's the dyes and materials that really matter. Daxon, Mitsubish and Taiyo Yuden have all had their snafus with bonding (glues). TY had packing issues, with lovely Chinese fingerprints left on our blanks, due to the outsourced packing that went on for a while.

And then you have some positive changes, too! For example, when Ritek adopted Fuji Oxonol dyes, to create the current RitekF media. Those are really good discs, in our yet-unpublished "2nd Class" that bumps the current 2nd Class back down to a 3rd Class. Not good enough to be archival, but reliable enough that you don't have to worry about an up-to-20% fail rate.

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I actually find it amazing that we are able to maintain 50 "open" or "unfinalized" DVDs. I have no idea how this is made possible.

There's really nothing to this. It's simply an issue of more info being written to the disc to close it out, and creating a central DVD version of a TOC. (TOC is CD version, mind if pulling a blank of the name of the DVD version. Not important enough to look up!)

If you ever wanted to learn about optical media (DVDs, especially), then you came to the right site.

_________

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I don't know if we can specify something equivalent to "long play" (reduced quality) as we do with a DVD recorder. If not, even a terrabyte drive might be more costly than burning to DVDs.

PVRs/DVRs tend to be closed systems. There's a high probability that the hard drive can only be read on the PVR/DVR, and not a computer, due to proprietary formatting. At best, sometimes PVRs and DVD recorders use Unix-style (Linux) file systems. Windows is almost never an option, as it's not using FAT16, FAT32, NTFS or eXFS.

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If I had my druthers, I would only save the utmost favorite operas, movies and documentaries.

Agreed.

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The remaining brain candy can always be rented from netfilx, in the rare event anyone wants to see them again. Unfortunately some of my family elders seem to have their meaning in life affected by having all these copies.

Agreed.

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Although in addition to taking time to find something if we do want to see it again, we are seldom certain that we actually have it, so it's really a joke in my humble opinion.

I like to call this "being a digital packrat". At some point, it's obsessive behavior, rather than a legitimate need to save it for later. And let's be honest, you can only watch so much TV!!

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Meanwhile take the first drive to the computer, delete the worst rubbish, and the rest gets crunched to 25% of original size, which hopefully retains 80% of quality and looks acceptable on a panoramic TV.

There's no easy way to compress video to 80% of original, when the source is broadcast MPEG-2. You'd almost be better off setting up a cheap DVD recorder (with a hard drive) on a timer record mode. Then just use as much compression as you can tolerate.

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Buy 3 terrabyte drives, 3 external USB casings, one software that "crunches" multiple movies.
"Archive" the crunchies to the third terrabyte drive. Which hopefully thus holds at least 1-2 years of movies, before we must buy a fourth and fifth.

You picked the wrong time to buy lots of large hard drives, given the snafu in Thailand. That's going to be an incredibly expensive purchase, more than 50% of the cost as compared to September, and it's going to remain that way for at least 6 more months (based on the official statements by Seagate executives). Economists suggest it could stay a higher-cost item for all of 2012.

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PS. So-called "unlimited" online backup like carbonite is not a solution.
Carbonite is online backup – not online storage. It is meant to be a backup of the files that are on your computer – not a place to store files in order to free up space on your hard drive. If you remove any file from your hard drive, we wait 30 days for you to recover it, and then we delete that file from our servers, too.

I can't even imagine uploading a hard drive full of content to online storage. With standard home (or even office) upload speeds, 10GB takes most of a day (minimum). I can't imagine 100GB or even 1TB. Not to be crass, but I think I'd rather stick my wang in a meat grinder, before having to endure the punishment of uploading to an online "backup" service. There's also no such thing as an unlimted-sized hard drive, so any claims of unlimited space are always going to be marketing lies, with actual limits hidden in some fine print.

[NJRoadfan]

When I saw "White DVDs" I thought I was going to encounter a thread about Princo DVD-R blanks.

[kristoffo]

Thank you Lord Smurf!

I was hoping not to buy another stand-alone DVD, waiting until a stand-alone Blu Ray equivalent is affordable. I don't follow the tech news but I simply am expecting stand-alone DVD to Blu Ray to follow the pattern of VCR to DVD: first we get players, then we get recorders, then the price becometh affordable.

But presumably that means at least one more year for them to be available and two years to be affordable. Meanwhile either my DVD recorder is wearing out or it just can't handle the newer discs. And after reading all you wrote, it does not seem a good odea to hook up a hard drive to the DVR. It seems that DVD's actually give the best flexibility and we don't require Blu Ray quality. So I guess we'd better look for bargains in DVD recorders. Thank you.

[kpmedia]

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waiting until a stand-alone Blu Ray equivalent is affordable. I don't follow the tech news but I simply am expecting stand-alone DVD to Blu Ray to follow the pattern of VCR to DVD: first we get players, then we get recorders, then the price becometh affordable.

This will probably never happen outside of Japan.

In North America and Europe, the era of the PVRs/on-demand has overtaken tapes/discs. To many people, having to handle media is a quaint notion. All you need is a remote pointed at the magic box on top of the TV set, and you can record, play or buy anything you want without letting the couch cushions cool off. And it's not just cable/satellite companies anymore, but Hulu, Netflix, Vudu, etc.

Most consumer sources are non-HD. The HDV/AVCHD video cameras owners will mostly be connecting to computers to edit/etc, which is generally stored on SD cards.

Outside of cameras, you have broadcasts (TV), which studios and broadcasters are hell-bent on disallowing you from recording "for keeps". It's been that way since before the invention of the VCR, but they've made it more difficult to record by way using using legal loopholes, playing the DMCA against pre-existing copyright law. Fair use exemption within copyright law would have allowed recording, but the DMCA makes a (still untried) case against any breakage of "digital locks". So MPAA/studios/etc have hidden HD video behind an HDMI/HDCP firewall. You can have it if you can get to it, but you're not allowed to get to it.

HD video is downconverted to SD quality when it's not fed out to an "approved" (non-TV) device via HDMI. So you can pretty much bet a recording box that lets you make discs will never be approved. Only component will safely sidestep this.

This is nice: JVC SR-HD1500US Blu-Ray Disc and HDD Recorder but it has no future in North America. ($2200 at Amazon! Yikes!)
I would like to be wrong. But I'm usually not.

The only way to successfully record HDTV is to use some computer hardware, and lock onto QAM and ATSC signals. I've not followed recent trends in how/what is necessary, but I have read about stations being blocked on some newer capture cards. The hardware technology is constantly "evolving" (devolving in abilities) to appease certain parties. The biggest trend is to do away with component, and make all HD hardware HDMI-only.

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Meanwhile either my DVD recorder is wearing out or it just can't handle the newer discs. And after reading all you wrote, it does not seem a good odea to hook up a hard drive to the DVR. It seems that DVD's actually give the best flexibility and we don't require Blu Ray quality. So I guess we'd better look for bargains in DVD recorders. Thank you.

Buy this: MAGNAVOX MDR513H/F7 320GB HDD and DVD Recorder with Digital Tuner, Black

Total cost is about $350 shipped from Amazon, and you won't find a better new recorder. And I don't think you're in the mood to buy a potentially problematic used and abused HDD recorder (as most are). I use a Philips DVD recorder that acted as the model for this entire line, and it's awesome.

[kristoffo]

Thank you KP. Just a couple more notes, in case anyone would like to respond.

1. I didn't want blu-ray for HD. I wanted it to put more regular-quality on one disc. And I suspected this expectation was not to be counted on. Definitely not, it seems. Thank you KP for clearing this up.

2. I'd prefer a Panasonic, just because my current DVD recorder is Panasonic, so "maybe" another Panasonic might read the same "unfinalized" discs. (?) But if I had to bet, I would say, probably not so. If anyone would like to confirm this, please let me know...!

Thank you all in any case. DVD recording is pretty darn good, pretty darn amazing, and pretty darn cheap. Sure takes up less space than VCRs. I am alright with DVDs, just wanted to be sure I was not missing something. Now I know for sure. Thank you all.

[lordsmurf]

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Originally Posted by kristoffo

2. I'd prefer a Panasonic, just because my current DVD recorder is Panasonic, so "maybe" another Panasonic might read the same "unfinalized" discs. (?) But if I had to bet, I would say, probably not so.

It really depends on the recorder age of the current model. In some cases, yes, new recorders can final discs from older ones! In fact, it's often happened where different brands can finalize each others' discs, because the hardware inside is so similar. Most DVD recorders are from one of about six pre-fab kit designs.

So there's some good news for you!

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