No cyanine for DVD-R or DVD+R possible?

[kpmedia]

I was reading a patent, and came across this information in the background area:

Quote:

Regarding a DVD drive, the wavelength of a semiconductor laser in a band of 630 nm to 690 nm is standardized as a light source. Moreover, a commercialized reproducing-only DVD-ROM drive has a wavelength of approximately 650 nm.

On the other hand, regarding the recording material, dyes such as cyanine dye, and phthalocyanine dye have been known for a CD-R (write-once-read-many compact disc), but such dyes cannot be used for DVD-R (write-once-read-many digital versatile disc) since there is no absorption edge in the optical absorption spectra of such dyes which corresponds to the short-wavelength region of the used red laser beam. Therefore, there is a demand for a medium capable of recording and reproducing at a wavelength of 630 nm to 690 nm, the most preferable wavelength for a write-once-read-many DVD medium.

In regard to such technological demand, until today various materials have been proposed for a recording layer such as polymethine dye (e.g. Patent Literature 1), salt-forming dye of a cyanine dye with an azo metal chelate dye (e.g. Patent Literature 2), azo dye (e.g. Patent Literatures 3 and 4), formazan dye (e.g. Patent Literature 5), tetraaza porphyrin dye (Patent Literature 6), dipyrromethene dye (e.g. Patent Literature 7), and styryl dye.

cyanine+azo is a dye in use.
azo a.k.a. azo metal chelate is a dye in use.
formazan for DVD-R? I was under the belief that this was a CD-R only dye.
dipyrromethene is a dye in use.
porphyrin is not an in-use dye that I'm aware of. Same for styrl or squarylium.

But apparently cyanine is not possible. Hmmm...
I've seen many DVD-only documents that refer to cyanine as a possible dye type, including other patents.

I already knew that phthalocyanine was a CD-R only dye.

Based on the visual performance, it was believed that Princo a few other now-gone DVD-R manufacturers had dye based on cyanine. It must've been doped with something else, possibly a low mixture of azo.

According to AllMediaOutlet.com in 2005, Princo media was made with "metal-stabilized cyanine dye" -- was this possibly an early cyanine+azo mix, or simply a metal-doped cyanine as claimed? (It was passed off as TDK media at the time, but was really Princo with forged TDK media IDs used without permission.) TDK marketing documents and TDK authorized sellers claimed the media to use "MSi metal-stabilised cyanine dye" at the time, however I've always been under the impression that TDK was using an azo dye of some sort. And that the cyanine statement was a mistake in DVD-R/DVD+R documentation that was intended for CD-R docs -- possibly a poorly edited re-use of CD-R docs for DVD-R docs.

Patents are usually pretty well error-free, but this patent assertion counters what I've read to date.


Reference: Optical recording medium, and optical recording method and optical recording apparatus thereof
U.S. Patent Applicaton #20090135706

[pepst]

Cyanine DVDR dyes DO certainly exist - several (now defunct) European media manufacturers were using them in 2001-06.
kpmedia - do you know what kind of dye does Princo use for their 16x DVD-R media?

[kpmedia]

Yes, that's my understanding as well. It's the reason this patent assertion took me a little by surprise. I now have to wonder about the bias found in patent docs. At first, I thought it was maybe an old patent, as I located it during research on squarylium and other alternate dyes -- but no, it's from 2009! Another thought is that maybe something just got lost in translation along the lines, whether it was non-English to English, or English to the semi-legalese used in patent docs.

Princo is such an odd company -- I can never tell if and when they are in business, and what they are doing when they are. I've never seen a Princo 16x DVD-R. After CompUSA dissolved, Princo media pretty much disappeared from North America -- and good riddance, at that. The only information I come across, as it regards Princo 16 DVD-R, looks to be some sort of joke that originated in online forums, or as a "brand" of disc product in China. Specifically, companies claiming to be "authorized" manufacturers of the disc, but which looks to largely be their own methods and likely stolen/fake media IDs (MCC,TY).

There's an entire "video generation" out there, in fact, that have no idea what Princo even is. I'm not referring to consumers, but to professionals. I've asked around in the past, and been met with deer-in-headlights blank stares, as they've never heard of Princo. It pre-dates them too much (pre-2005 info).

And in case you missed it in the other thread, welcome to the site.

[pepst]

Actually, Princo is pretty much alive and kicking. Even though their products completely disappeared from North America's and western Europe's markets (because of the lost patent infringement suit with Philips), they are still very active in Asian and South American countries. I have a few pieces of their 16x DVD-R and DVD-R DL media and their quality is surprisingly good.
You're right that their are a very odd and mysterious company - I was never able to find out what kind of technology (machinery + dye) they use nor any other further informations on this company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpmedia

And in case you missed it in the other thread, welcome to the site.

Thanks!

[NJRoadfan]

I was under the impression that most of the Princo media still being sold was NOS that they flooded the market with before folding. I'm still seeing "4X" media popping up on ebay. How long ago did they stop making that anyway? The "16X" media seems readily available from US sellers as well, although not as many listed as the 4X and 8X media. The prices are surprisingly high, I hope nobody is buying that stuff when known reliable and top rated media is going for less.

[pepst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

I was under the impression that most of the Princo media still being sold was NOS that they flooded the market with before folding. I'm still seeing "4X" media popping up on ebay. How long ago did they stop making that anyway?

4x Princos are probably from old European stocks. Since they cannot be now legally sold in European Union countries, the merchants are trying to get rid of them through ebay. Princo's 8x and 16x DVD-Rs (including the "Budget" b-grade range), 4x DVD-R DLs and 56x CD-Rs are still being produced though. According to some indications, they even may be producing the DVD+R media and DVDRs with faked MIDs for the third world countries.

[kpmedia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJRoadfan

NOS

NOS? Is that shorthand for "new old-stock" maybe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepst

According to some indications, they even may be producing the DVD+R media and DVDRs with faked MIDs for the third world countries.

I've seen quite a few companies on those bulk vendor sites like alibaba.com that manufacture media with MCC and TY codes -- all fakes, of course. Some of them claim to be "Princo authorized" manufacturers, too. If I'm not mistaken, down in the Australia and Indonesia area of the world, there have even be fake Princo media at some point in the past. I vaguely recall reading about that last year, from merchants having a conversation in the Whirlpool forums. It's almost amusing -- who would bother to fake bottom-barrel media?

[pepst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpmedia

NOS? Is that shorthand for "new old-stock" maybe?


I've seen quite a few companies on those bulk vendor sites like alibaba.com that manufacture media with MCC and TY codes -- all fakes, of course. Some of them claim to be "Princo authorized" manufacturers, too. If I'm not mistaken, down in the Australia and Indonesia area of the world, there have even be fake Princo media at some point in the past. I vaguely recall reading about that last year, from merchants having a conversation in the Whirlpool forums. It's almost amusing -- who would bother to fake bottom-barrel media?

I've personally seen the faked Ritek G05 & TTH02 DVD-Rs and CMC Magnetics CD-Rs and I also know about one Chinese company, making the faked MBI CD-Rs. Nothing in the world of optical media can surprise me anymore.
Actually, Princo is a very popular and reputable brand in some Asian country (Thailand, Indonesia, etc.). I guess that it makes sense for some smaller Chinese manufacturers to ilegally sold their products under this brand.

[kpmedia]

I've also come across quite a few faked TTG/TTH discs in recent years -- and most of those came from European users. Maybe not made there, but certainly sold and used there! I forget if E-Net manufactured it, or merely distributed it. I have a big file on E-Net somewhere, hoping to find it within the next few months as we work to publish more material. As modern as Europe is, it seems to be a target for crap media even more than South America -- and I don't really get why that is.

[pepst]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpmedia

I've also come across quite a few faked TTG/TTH discs in recent years -- and most of those came from European users. Maybe not made there, but certainly sold and used there! I forget if E-Net manufactured it, or merely distributed it. I have a big file on E-Net somewhere, hoping to find it within the next few months as we work to publish more material.

Let me know when you find that file on E-Net, I would love to read it.
They were responsible (as a biggest European media distributor) for a flood of crap DVDR media (Infosmart fakes, AN30-35s & VDSPxxxxs, Z-grade Riteks, etc.), in European markets in 2003-2007.

Quote:

As modern as Europe is, it seems to be a target for crap media even more than South America -- and I don't really get why that is.

Few years ago, you could buy even the fake Sony or Verbatim DVD-R media (faked MID code + label print + packaging) here in the central and eastern Europe.

[pepst]

Anything new regarding the "E-net file"?

[kpmedia]

After numerous delays, research will start to finally be posted starting later this year. I'll keep in touch.

You'll know what it is because it'll carry this notation:

This is research from The Digital FAQ archives. Starting in late 2012, we'll be sharing our research online for the first time, with our Premium Members. This includes everything from patent documents to test/experiment results to archived news clippings to information on pertinent individuals. Enjoy!