Quantcast MDisc DVD-R lifespan with 90% humidity? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
05-20-2017, 06:22 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is online now
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Here in my city on rainy days the humidity goes to 90% and a little more (it remains a few days in that humidity until the weather stays dry the humidity drops) temperature in days of rain is 29-32ēC the rainy season goes of the months of January to May and the rest of the year the humidity is low of 40-64% and temperature 31-36ēC

In table 2 of millenniata says that the dvdr mdisc verbatim lives 1332 years in 25 Cē 50% RH and maximum conditions he lives 53 years in 40ēC 70% RH

In my conditions where on some days of the year on rainy days the humidity goes to 90% and temperature 29-31 ° C on those rainy days from January to May and from May to December the climate is dry 40-64 ° RH and 31-36 ° C Which in your opinion is the life expectancy in years of mdisc verbatim dvdr stored inside case of dvd amaray, amaray case stored inside common plastic bag tied and bag inside box closed?

How many years would this mdisc dvdr verbatim live under my conditions? Compare millenniata test conditions and my conditions

table millenniata
http://www.ritek.com/m-disc/tc/download/001-n.pdf


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05-24-2017, 06:45 PM
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You keep asking similar questions about the life of storage media. The bottom line is no one here likely can say what you can expect under your conditions, at least not without going to great expense, and then t is a statistical guess based on the ISO methodology.

BTW: humidity maybe ~100% when in a fog, or raining.

Your conditions vary over time, humidity cycles up and down, as does temperature. This causes mechanical stresses on the disc due to cycling thermal expansion, and hydroscopic induced stresses as may apply to the media and storage materials.

The tests in the publication appear to be for a constant humidity and temperature. Find test results that address thermal and humidity cycling.

If you want a solid number, first invest in an environmentally controlled storage space, and use it to store your precious media. And periodically test your recordings and rerecord before error rates approach uncorrectable levels. That is what archives that are interested in preserving media do.
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05-24-2017, 06:51 PM
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I do not want exact numbers but rather approximate, above I quoted my conditions and test conditions of the millenniata ex. 1332 years in 25 Cē 50% RH and maximum hard conditions he lives 53 years in 40ēC 70% RH my conditions different

I try to know how many years the dvdr verbatim mdisc lived in my conditions mentioned above
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05-24-2017, 07:18 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Your conditions are different from the test - they cycle!
Thus the test cannot be used to meaningfully predict what will happen in your case.

What part of that do you not understand!

Think of it this way. One can can predict the strength of a new wire - how hard one has to pull it until it breaks. But if one bends it some random amount and straighten it again a random number of times can one predict the remaining strength? Not without knowing the properties of the were, environmental factors, and the amount and number of bends, and haveing a good understanding of materials science and engineering.

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05-24-2017, 07:26 PM
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Is there no person who can give me this approximate estimate under my conditions above?
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05-24-2017, 10:25 PM
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Manufacturer claims/studies are often hard to believe. The primary issues is that most tests use special scanning drives by Datarius, which is not real-world. Actual performance can be much less, with a huge dropoff curve as the media becomes even nominally unreadable. So while it may scan poorly, realistically it will not read at all.

The math here is easy.

They show about halving per 20% RH. The chart goes up to 70%. Although it probably curves a worse, it's probably a safe(ish) assumption that 90% RH at 40-C (104-F) is about 26 years according to their charts. If we also assume a 50% overestimation, due to factors like Datarius vs. real-world, then we're looking at 13 years.

So that's your answer: 13 years on average.


Average = some less, some more. So backup your contents at least 2-3 times, to spread the averaging out more. Like the 3 bears, one over, one under, one just right (13 exact). Backup is about spreading probabilities of data loss, via redundancy and location.

That tracks close to my past advice to you. In ideal conditions, you'll get 35-65 for DVD-R. Yours is probably half that due to RH%, and maybe half again for temps. So 8-16 years for dyed-based DVD-R/DVD+R. About a decade, maybe two. And by that time, you'll probably move on to something else anyway. I've been doing backups since we had 5.25 floppies and tapes drives. Every few years, the old data is put on new media. I have files going back to 1992 archived to HDD and DVD, but the bigger problem is access. No software to open those old files. The future of DVD players/ROMs is bleak as well. Most TVs are now connected for streaming, and computers come sans-optical. By 2025 or 2030, it's going to be worse.

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05-25-2017, 10:09 AM
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My discs verbatim dvdr mdisc are inside the case amaray and the case inside plastic bag closed tied and the bag inside cardboard box, I said before that 6 months where I live is the time of the rains January to May, at that time there are many Rainy days but not every day the temperature in days of rain is 29-32 ° C and humidity when it rains very much rises up to 70-90% and a little more I see in the hygrometer, in the days that does not rain the humidity and temperature is similar With dry season

May to December is the dry season every day morning temperature 31ēC 60-64RH, the afternoon 32-36ēC humidity 40-55% RH, night 32ēC 64% RH

These are my conditions

Millenniata conditions are present in the table 1332 years in 25 C ° 50% RH and maximum conditions he lives 53 years in 40 ° C 70% RH

In my condition the dvdr mdisc verbatim even being tougher than the regular dvd-r will have a small life of 13 years?
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05-27-2017, 03:08 AM
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Asking again doesn't change my answer.

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05-27-2017, 07:14 AM
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1) What should I do for these mdisc dvdr verbatim media to have maximum durability without using silica gel? I keep them inside the Amaray case, the case inside a plastic bag tied and the bag inside a cardboard box, the cardboard box I keep on top of the closet in the living room

2) That answer you posted above is for the dvd-r common with dye or dvdr mdisc verbatim inorganic?

3) 13 years of durability is for 90% 40ēC every day of the year (365 days) or for January to May with the rest of the year the normal conditions of 31-36ēC 40-65% RH during the day and the useful life increases ?

-- merged --

1) What should I do for these mdisc dvdr verbatim media to have maximum durability without using silica gel? I keep them inside the Amaray case, the case inside a plastic bag tied and the bag inside a cardboard box, the cardboard box I keep on top of the closet in the living room open and ventilated air external

2) That your answer you posted above is for the dvd-r common with dye or dvdr mdisc verbatim inorganic?

3) 13 years of durability the mdisc verbatim dvdr is for 90% 40ēC every day of the year (365 days) or is for January to May ( Some days of this period is rain 90%RH 29-33ēC) with the rest of the year the normal conditions of 31-32ēC 64-70% day and night, 32-36ēC 40-55%RH afternoon Are 2 different periods with different storage conditions, joining the 2 and calculating a probability for mdisc dvdr verbatim the useful life of the disc is only 13 years?
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06-10-2017, 05:32 PM
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Asking again doesn't make answer faster. Stop doing that.

Silica gel? Sure, I guess, try it. But not really overly helpful long-term.
Maybe use these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica...dity_indicator

Organic vs. inorganic doesn't really matter much, as the bonding/polycarb/etc is the same either way. And as I've said before, that's the weak link of a disc, not the dye itself (unless the dye is crap).

Good question on variable temps. Maybe it will yield better. But I prefer to use conservative estimates. For example, if the low temps made it 1.5x longer (20 years), I'd still prefer to go with 13 years. Because we all know temps can vary years to year. Your temps may be higher and longer one year, and lower and cooler the next. So stick to averages. And when it concerns death (of anything) always be conservative. For example, don't wait until you're 100 years old to visit a dream vacation spot, as you may not last that long. Get it?

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  #11  
06-10-2017, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Asking again doesn't make answer faster. Stop doing that.

Silica gel? Sure, I guess, try it. But not really overly helpful long-term.
Maybe use these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica...dity_indicator

Organic vs. inorganic doesn't really matter much, as the bonding/polycarb/etc is the same either way. And as I've said before, that's the weak link of a disc, not the dye itself (unless the dye is crap).

Good question on variable temps. Maybe it will yield better. But I prefer to use conservative estimates. For example, if the low temps made it 1.5x longer (20 years), I'd still prefer to go with 13 years. Because we all know temps can vary years to year. Your temps may be higher and longer one year, and lower and cooler the next. So stick to averages. And when it concerns death (of anything) always be conservative. For example, don't wait until you're 100 years old to visit a dream vacation spot, as you may not last that long. Get it?
please friend respond all questions

1) I do not have silica gel and in my city does not sell silica gel, to get silica I have to buy on the internet and it is not viable because of the freight, I would always need to buy silica because it does not last the long life, I wanted it a way without silica

2) Any common dvd is equal to mdisc dvdr verbatim because of polycarbonate and glue? Mdisc dvdr verbatim no more resistance? Millenniata said that the glue and polycarbonate own them and are different from the ordinary ones

3) 13 years is a very low durability but I can not avoid this, I tried to buy the best discs mdisc verbatim dvdr and verbatim azo but my conditions (January to May ( Some days of this period is rain 90%RH 29-33ēC) with the rest of the year the normal conditions of 31-32ēC 64-70% day and night, 32-36ēC 40-55%RH afternoon) are the ones I mentioned before, I keep the discs inside cases of dvd amaray, the cases inside Of plastic bags tied and the bags inside cardboard boxes

Several days and months here the temperature is set at 30-36ēC I never saw arrive in 40

4) A common dvdr disc or a mdisc dvdr verbatim dies and immediately destroys when going to 90% RH and 40ēC?

5) Ritek manufactures mdisc dvdr for verbatim, would it be interesate to ask ritek about the materials and manufacture of mdisc dvdr verbatim?

6) What should I do to keep to the maximum and increase the durability of the dvdr verbatim azo and the dvdr verbatim mdisc if I keep them inside boxes dvd case amaray black and I keep these cases inside common plastic bags tied closed and I keep these bags Inside enclosed cardboard boxes and hold those cardboard boxes in a ventilated room with open door?

-- merged --

Please friend Lordsmurf answer all my doubts of the previous post and the doubts of this post:

7) What is the difference between a Datarius drive and a common drive LG, LiteOn, Sony, Samsung, Pioneer? Datarius has a greater error correction PIE, PIF, Jitter, POF, C1-C2? Does Datarius read an old dvd disc or mdisc dvdr verbatim the common drives do not read and the disk unusable with errors? All manufacturers of optical media Millenniata, Verbatim, Ritek, TY use Datarius and not common drives?

8) Millenniata said by email that the drives they use for testing are Datarius Shuttleplex drives, CD-CAs (Audiodev), Pulstec drives to measure Jitter, PIE, PIF and POF these drives are different from the LG, LiteOn .. .?

9)) I posted that I keep the Mdisc DVDR Verbatim in black case Amaray DVD and I keep the case inside a closed plastic bag tied and I keep the bag inside a closed cardboard box is correct or I have to keep different To maximize the life expectancy of Mdisc DVDR Verbatim?

10) 13 year life expectancy of MDisc DVDR Verbatim is the disc stored at 40 ° C 90% RH every day of the year (365 days) or only from January to May with the rest of the year in conditions of 53-70% RH And 31-36 ° C? We are in July and a few days in July it rains in my city last year it did not rain in July it rained until May

11) 13 years of life expectancy do you refer to the common DVDR TY, Verbatim AZO or do you refer to the DVDR Verbatim MDisc?


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  #12  
07-18-2017, 07:22 AM
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1. No question.
2. Polycarb is polycarb, glue is glue. Quality can very, but at most basic it is what it is. Millieniata has no magic.
3. You live outdoors without temp control. Yes, it's low.
4. Damage is rarely immediate.
5. Not really. Ritek won't say anything useful. Just more "ours is best" marketing.
6. Bags hold moisture. But you location is odd, more moisture outside bag than in.
7. You can't afford or find a Datarius anyway. Those are for lab testing. You don't have lab conditions either.
8. The flaw of Datarius drives is results are often not real-world. That's a source of outlandish "1000 years" claims.
9. Already asked, answered.
10. Again, 13 is conservative. Might it be longer? Perhaps.
11. All optical dye-based DVDs (ie DVD-R(A), DVD-R(G), DVD+R).

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07-18-2017, 07:43 AM
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1 How do I get the best and realistic annual mean of humidity and temperature for my city and discs storage? Last year 2016-2015 my digital hygrometer shows temperature of 31-35ēC this year of 2017 the hygrometer measures 27-32ēC humidity 40-50% I do not know which to trust to estimate the correct of my optical discs, I live in the city of Limoeiro do Norte state Ceara Brazil

2 I keep the mdisc dvdr verbatim inside case of dvd amaray black, the case inside plastic bag and the bag inside the cardboard box, I put a digital hygrometer inside the closed bag and it rains inside the bag the humidity is high, If it does not rain inside the bag is dry and low humidity, if I remove the bag the useful life of the disks will increase? I keep it in bags to protect it from dust and insects
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...ixacom10-1.jpg
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...pelC3A3o-1.gif
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag...DVD_case-1.jpg

3 Does storing the cases and disks inside cardboard boxes reduce the temperature for the disks? If the cases and discs do not fit inside cardboard boxes will the hot wind increase the temperature?

4 13 years estimate for my mdisc verbatim is contact from the manufacturing or from my storage mode

5 What tips do you show me to increase the expectation greater than 13 years? Obs. Without using silica I do not have silica

6 I really need your help To clarify the doubts but I do not know how many days or months to wait for the answer

7 The calculation of 13 years to 90% 40 ° C is for every day in the year (365 days) or only in the days and months of rain? It does not rain here all day of the year I want to find the average in the year of humidity and temperature at the time without rain, can this data be obtained on the internet or only in the hygrometer analyzing the days?

8 - I have 4 copies of my precious files burned in the dvdr verbatim mdisc and I have 21 discs of mdisc dvdr verbatim in the spindle pin, when they pass the 13 years all of them are discardable to the trash because they are not more reliable?

9 - I have 4 copies of my precious files burned in the dvdr verbatim mdisc and I have 21 discs of mdisc dvdr verbatim in the pin spindle, when they pass the 13 years all of them are disposable to the trash because they are not more reliable?

10 - millenniata says in email: 1. that its glue is patented more resistant than the glue of common dvds and that mdisc polycarbonate is modified through additives for mold release and UV protection. These additives have an effect on the "Glass transition temperature" (Tg) and the hygroscopic tendency of the materials.
We test these materials in a temperature and humidity oven to enhance the longevity response of the disc. A different PC grade is used for the MDisc to enhance longevity.

2. The Glue used in the Mdisc is unique to the Mdisc. It is not used in other DVDR products. It has a very high bonding strength to prevent delamination. Standard DVDR does not use this type of glue since the weakest layer is the organic dye layer. High bonding strength materials are not required for standard DVDR.

They are lying of informations Polycarbonate and glue?
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07-22-2017, 10:38 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Since no one can predict reliably what will happen with your disks and situation, why not run some of your own tests? Perhaps try this.

1. Burn 5 MDISK and 5 regulars discs with some test material of your choice. All disks the same content and the same burner.
2. Test them after the burn and record the results.
3. Subject them to some accelerated aging conditions, such as:
a. place them on a terry cloth on a cookie sheet in an oven set to, say, 80 C.
b. place a pie tin of water in the oven (to raise the humidity)
c. bake like that for 20 hours
d. remove to cool to room temperature for 4 hours (use the oven to cook your food if you like)
e. repeat the above steps a-d for 14 days. (alternate positions of the disks on the sheet for each bake cycle so that each disk had baked in each position once)
f. On the 10th day, after cooling to room temperature, test the disks and record the results.
4. Repeat steps a-f above until a disk starts to show unacceptable error rates. Then record the result, drop the bad disk and continue until all disks show failure, or you are tired of doing the tests.
5. Share the progress/results with us every 10th day.

Last edited by dpalomaki; 07-22-2017 at 10:56 AM.
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07-22-2017, 03:13 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is online now
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I really wish my friend Lordsmurf answered all my 10 questions above
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07-22-2017, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
I really wish my friend Lordsmurf answered all my 10 questions above.
The FAQ states in part "For the best advice and help, become a Premium Member, and enjoy the full range of content, information and expertise available, to assist you in your digital media project."

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07-23-2017, 06:46 PM
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I really wish my friend Lordsmurf answered all my 10 questions above

At the moment I am unemployed and without money to be premium subscriber, in brazil the dollar conversion is high
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07-23-2017, 08:20 PM
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1.
2.
3. Hotter inside box, yes. Cardboard absorbs moisture, so temp effect of lower humidity inside box temporary.
4.
5.
6.
7. A single hot day can negate 364 not-hot days. Damage isn't always cumulative.
8/9. 21 x 4.38 = just under 100gb. Perhaps online storage also an option to pursue. I don't like it, don't use it myself, but I'm also not living in area where temps can damage my media.
10. I don't care what Millenniata says. Every company says it has the best whatever. Independent research matters more, not whatever companies spew.

I'm not answering some of your questions. We've already gone over it, my answers are unchanged.

I'm busy. If you keep re-asking the same questions, that I've already answered, I'm locking the thread. I don't have an issue with answering entirely new questions (new concepts), but on my own timeline. Understand?

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07-23-2017, 09:06 PM
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I would like to ask more questions but if I ask questions you will lock the topic, some questions above were not answered so I had doubts

I am a serious person in my study of optical media
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07-24-2017, 05:37 AM
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1 Another question: did you say that the dvdr verbatim mdisc has an expectation of 13 years with millenniata specifications table + 90% RH 40 ēC every day of the year + Datarius, what would be the expectation of a common DVD and Verbatim AZO DVD? What is the specifications table of the manufacturers of common dvds and verbatim AZO + 90% RH 40ēC every day of the year + Datarius?

2 If I remove the closed bag with the case and disc (mdisc dvdr verbatim or verbatim azo) inside it and store only the disc and case inside the cardboard box will the durability of the disc increase (above 13 years) or decrease?
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