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  #41  
07-06-2019, 05:49 AM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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Store DVD disc inside the ziplock with silica gel sachet no need to remove the disc inside the black case? inside the black case has moisture? the loose disk inside the ziplock along with silica gel sachet?
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  #42  
07-06-2019, 06:18 AM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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Originally Posted by gamemaniaco View Post
Store DVD disc inside the ziplock with silica gel sachet no need to remove the disc inside the black case? inside the black case has moisture? the loose disk inside the ziplock along with silica gel sachet?
You can leave the disc in its case. The case is not airtight, so as long as the Ziploc bag it's in is sealed any moisture inside will diffuse out through the cracks and be absorbed by the silica gel.

To recap: Disc, either CD, DVD, or Blu-ray. Inside either a sleeve or a (non-airtight) plastic case. Packet of silica gel outside the case but inside the Ziploc bag. Ziploc bag around everything, closed airtight. Will keep moisture in the contents to the bare minimum.
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  #43  
07-06-2019, 06:23 AM
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Thank you very much the answer thank you clarified my doubt if the case would maintain humidity inside and the silica would not absorb

If I keep DVD MDisc inside ziplock bag with silica gel the durability of the disc would greatly increase? unfortunately I can not lower the temperature of my room is variation 31-35 Cº
  #44  
07-06-2019, 06:35 AM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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Thank you very much the answer thank you clarified my doubt if the case would maintain humidity inside and the silica would not absorb

If I keep DVD MDisc inside ziplock bag with silica gel the durability of the disc would greatly increase? unfortunately I can not lower the temperature of my room is variation 31-35 Cº
You can only do what you can do. If you don't have climate controlled storage, eliminating the humidity will be a lot better than nothing.

It sounds as if you're very concerned about these discs. I'd say to get a box of M-Discs and a box of the premium Verbatim discs which Lordsmurf recommends. Burn four copies of each disc you want to preserve...two M-Discs and two Verbatims...verify the discs after burning to ensure data integrity, then pack them in Ziploc bags with silica gel and store them separately. Put one copy at your uncle's or parents' house in case your house floods or burns down. Odds are at least one disc survives longer than you do. But I can't give you a money-back guarantee.
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  #45  
07-06-2019, 08:38 AM
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I already have 4 copies verbatim and mdisc but I keep in black case box inside closed cardboard boxes and this box on top of wardrobe of a ventilated natural ventilated room, currently I do not use silica gel and ziplock

My MDisc Verbatim and DVD-R Verbatim AZO DVD's have an expectation of 15 years from the burning date of 2017 and in my storage conditions 50-67% on days without rain and on rainy days high humidity and temperature varies 30- 35ºC, with the use of ziplock bag and silica gel sachet that can expand to how many more years?
temperature will always be the same

1) If the bag is hermetic without silica gel, is it bad for disc conservation because the moisture is always present in the bag?

2) I put all the disks inside a ziplock bag closed with silica gel, if for some reason there is any hole or opening in the zip bag the conservation and internal moisture will be equal to store without the zip bag and without silica?
  #46  
07-20-2019, 12:39 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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  1. Depends upon how much moisture is in the bag to start with.
  2. If you leave it alone and just ignore it for twenty years, yes; eventually the silica gel will be saturated and the moisture content inside and out will equalize. But if you do as I suggest and take the silica gel packets out once a year and put them in a warm oven (275F or 135C) for an hour or so to refresh them, then they will resume absorbing moisture. You can also test your ziplock bag at the same time. Trap some air in it, close it, hold it up to your face, and squeeze it. If the bag goes down, or if you feel air on your face (the face is the most sensitive part of your skin), throw the bag away and use a new one. Do this once a year and you really shouldn't have problems related to moisture. Of course, no money-back guarantee from me.
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  #47  
07-20-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ehbowen View Post
  1. Depends upon how much moisture is in the bag to start with.
  2. If you leave it alone and just ignore it for twenty years, yes; eventually the silica gel will be saturated and the moisture content inside and out will equalize. But if you do as I suggest and take the silica gel packets out once a year and put them in a warm oven (275F or 135C) for an hour or so to refresh them, then they will resume absorbing moisture. You can also test your ziplock bag at the same time. Trap some air in it, close it, hold it up to your face, and squeeze it. If the bag goes down, or if you feel air on your face (the face is the most sensitive part of your skin), throw the bag away and use a new one. Do this once a year and you really shouldn't have problems related to moisture. Of course, no money-back guarantee from me.

1) I can not know how much moisture is inside the bag but is it worse the bag being hermetic with moisture inside it detracts from the longevity of optical media? in my case I put silica gel sachets but I do not know if the zip bag is totally hermetic and has hole

2) If the zip bag is not airtight and contains holes or openings will the outside air enter the bag and remove accumulated moisture or is it necessary to remove the bag for greater air exchange and lower exposure to moisture ??

3) the zip bags I tested all of them I put fan air and closed the zips and after 24 hours I saw that they a little dried
  #48  
07-20-2019, 06:02 PM
ehbowen ehbowen is offline
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Look, GM. I've done just about all I can from five thousand miles away. I can't give authoritative answers without seeing your setup...and, even if I did, there are many more qualified authorities. Perhaps you should hire a local consultant. Or at least use double bags with silica gel packets inside each bag; in this case BOTH bags need to have holes for the moisture to enter. Dry the silica gel packets out once a year, in a warm oven; use new bags each year, and check the bags for leaks before you put the DVDs and silica gel inside it. Or maybe you need to install and use air conditioning.

Take reasonable precautions, but some things are just out of our hands. I get that these discs are important to you, but the people around you are even more important. Take care of them first, and don't obsess over things that you can't control.
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  #49  
07-20-2019, 06:45 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehbowen View Post
Look, GM. I've done just about all I can from five thousand miles away. I can't give authoritative answers without seeing your setup...and, even if I did, there are many more qualified authorities. Perhaps you should hire a local consultant. Or at least use double bags with silica gel packets inside each bag; in this case BOTH bags need to have holes for the moisture to enter. Dry the silica gel packets out once a year, in a warm oven; use new bags each year, and check the bags for leaks before you put the DVDs and silica gel inside it. Or maybe you need to install and use air conditioning.

Take reasonable precautions, but some things are just out of our hands. I get that these discs are important to you, but the people around you are even more important. Take care of them first, and don't obsess over things that you can't control.
I keep inside the zipper bag with silica gel, if the bag is hermetic and has no hole so do not enter moisture and I am protected because the silica gel absorbs moisture from the bag

in the other case if the zip bag with silica gel inside has some hole or opening the moisture enters but if the outside air is dry does it enter the zip and expel moisture? Does not she stay in the bag?
  #50  
07-22-2019, 04:38 AM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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The gift that keeps on giving, always good for a laugh.
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  #51  
07-22-2019, 07:29 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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I just use those sealeable freezer bags for both my tape and disc mediums and renew them when they are taken out for viewing.

Personally I wouldn't obsess over it. Just take the precautions you are and live.

You would be better off making copies on known good brand media and on different storage mediums if you are that paranoid.
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  #52  
07-22-2019, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab View Post
The gift that keeps on giving, always good for a laugh.
Burned discs in freezer bags. There has to be a joke there somewhere.

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  #53  
07-22-2019, 03:46 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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Ahhh LS...that made me LOL! Thanks!

Ummm...something about 'freezer burn?'

Edit: Okay...I admit it...keeping gamey around has its value!
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  #54  
07-22-2019, 03:55 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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@gamemanico

You've been here for 6 years and at videohelp for at least 1-2 years before this asking the same questions over and over and over and over. You're halfway through the projected 13-15 year lifespan of your discs. How many have failed during the past 7-8 years? If it's none or a small number, your storage methods are working. If it's a high number, then move! Nothing else is going to help!
  #55  
07-22-2019, 04:16 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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I just asked if storing the disks inside the ziplock bag with silica gel increases the life of the disks and if the zip bag contains any holes or does the opening become trapped inside the bag damaging the storage in the long run? if the bag contains hole the storage is the same as without using ziplock and silica bag?
  #56  
07-23-2019, 07:28 AM
LightWorker01 LightWorker01 is offline
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I would suggest those sealable freezer bags.

And to be fair, it depends. I would say rather than being too concerned, I would keep them in the freezer bags, but save multiple copies on multiple different mediums. If you open them for viewing, renew the silica gel. We cannot give you a quantitative answer but if you are in a high humidity country, it will probably improve your discs lifespan, but no guarantees in life. So keep multiple copies if the data is really that important to you on different mediums.

I for one, keep my video as digital files on multiple hard drives on/off site, DVDs and VHS tape. The lifespan of good quality video tape such as BASF/TDK properly stored has me convinced along with a few players and I still have some in use, multiple hard drives keeps me current with two here, one in a family member's safe, and DVDs for ease of viewing among others, spread out across true verbatim and M-Discs. The better stuff given out among people adds further copies.

A cloud backup then for good measure along with the best stored as a copy on a 256GB USB key attached to my key ring.

Photographs I print, and store in similar ways as mentioned above but without the tape. I also keep original negatives and print them using archival methods including proper fixing/washing and using fresh fixer etc.

As much as you are trying to protect your discs, do not get too concerned. Just keep multiple copies on different mediums, and let it be. It is not like we can take this stuff with us when we leave this plane.
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  #57  
07-27-2019, 06:13 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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If I put the mdisc dvd and dvd verbatim into the ziplock bag with silica gel does the ziplock bag contain any hole or any opening imperceptible will moisture get in the bag and have moisture condensation decreasing the durability of the discs??
  #58  
07-28-2019, 12:01 PM
Winsordawson Winsordawson is offline
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Yes, that is always an issue. That is why experts recommend storing your DVD in the vacuum of space, where no humidity will affect it. UV radiation will do a number on the discs, but you can solve that by buying special lead-coated DVD jewel cases that they sell on eBay. To be on the safe side, also store in a lead DVD carrying case.
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  #59  
07-28-2019, 02:27 PM
BarryTheCrab BarryTheCrab is offline
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Orbital Science's Cygnus spacecraft costs about $43,180 per pound to send things up, not sure the costs of KEEPING it in orbit, and the subsequent retrieval costs if you should require one of those DVDs, but it's a starting point.
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  #60  
07-28-2019, 05:22 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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To put an additional scare into your fevered/demented mind, not only is the zipper seal not 100% air/watertight, but the plastic used in household sandwich bags are air and moisture permeable.

Ah....but you say, what if I put a bag in bag in a bag? Unless you're filling all the bags with an inert gas such as nitrogen, there's still atmospheric air in the bags. Also, the effects of nitrogen on optical media, AFAIK is untested (before you ask!).*

*Oh...I know, I know, the next thread will be, "Nitrogen extend life of DVD in 30-35% degree humidity how long"?

Ah again...what if you vacuum seal the bags? Now you're forcing whatever material of whatever is against the DVDs directly into the surface of the disc, which may cause damage to the surface and warping.

Source: http://www.circuitnet.com/experts/86556.html

And NO, neither I or anyone else here is 100% certain if what was posted incorrect unless they can produce a peer reviewed white paper on the subject/question:

Quote:
Zip-lock Bags vs. Heat Sealed Bags

Are zip-lock bags vs. heat sealed bags an acceptable option for storage of moisture sensitive components?

M.W.

Expert Panel Responses

No. Zip lockbags are made from polyethylene, which moisture and other gases can transpire.

Rick Perkins
President
Chem Logic
Rick Perkins is a chemical engineer with more than 33 years of Materials & Processes experience. He has worked with Honeywell Aerospace in high-reliability manufacturing, as well as with several oil-field manufacturing companies. He also has a good understanding of environmental, health, and safety regulations.

The correct answer wouldbe no. From the fact that aircannot be fully evacuated from a zip lock ESD compliant bag the contents wouldbe subject to moisture absorption. The proper method forstorage is to evacuate the bag of all air via a dry N2 purge & then vacuumseal the bag. The placement of a desiccant pack & indicator card in the bagis also recommended. Now that the"proper method" is outlined the other answer is you could use a ziplock bag if the purpose was to transfer the component from stores to theproduction line for usage within a relatively short period of time. I wouldstill utilize a desiccant in the zip bag as an added safety. A comment on "heatsealed" bag. The proper bag for usage is an MVB (moisture vapor barrier)bag. This is manufactured using a thicker & more durable film than thestandard shielding bag.

Jerry Karp
President
JSK Associates
Based in. Northern California since 1971. Founded JSK Associates in 1979. Actively involved in soldering, cleaning, chemistries. 30 years experience in EOS/ESD control.

In a word, no. When the components are placed in the MoistureBarrier Bag (MBB) we'll assume they are dry. We then rely on the desiccant andthe bag to keep the environment within the bag very dry. The effectiveness ofthe bag in keeping moisture out depends on two things:
The permeability of the bag itself
The effectiveness of the seal
On both counts,"Ziploc" type bags are vastly inferior to a good MBB. A good MBB will meet therequirements of J-STD-033 with respect to permeability, and will retain a dryenvironment for as long as 3 years. The permeability of the bag is improved(reduced) by the metallization; it's much harder to diffuse water through ametal film than through a plastic one. The metal film is not present across theseal, so the thickness of the seal (the distance the moisture needs to travel)is important. A Ziploc-type bag has an extremely poor seal, as well as highpermeability.

Fritz Byle
Process Engineer
Astronautics
Fritz's career in electronics manufacturing has included diverse engineering roles including PWB fabrication, thick film print & fire, SMT and wave/selective solder process engineering, and electronics materials development and marketing. Fritz's educational background is in mechanical engineering with an emphasis on materials science. Design of Experiments (DoE) techniques have been an area of independent study. Fritz has published over a dozen papers at various industry conferences.

Bothvacuum & heat - sealed ESD bags would actually be a perfect solution forstorage purposes, client could pass Nitrogen (inert gas) prior to the sealingprocess.

Umut Tosun
Application Technology Manager
Zestron America
Mr. Tosun has published numerous technical articles. As an active member of the SMTA and IPC organizations, Mr. Tosun has presented a variety of papers and studies on topics such as "Lead-Free Cleaning" and "Climatic Reliability".

Thequestion of the quality of the seal in somewhat mute once you open a sealedcomponent bag. Oncea sealed bag from the manufacture is opened, moisture enters and begins itsintrusion into the moisture sensitive components. The only real reason to keepthe parts in a bag after it has been opened is to keep them safe from ESD,assuming it's an ESD protective bag, and to keep them labeled and gatheredtogether for storage. Unlessyou actively take measures to draw out the moisture from the resealed bag, youmight as well leave it open. You can drop in a new "desiccant" pack or "pill"and reseal. The only problem with this is it is sometimes hard to tell if thedesiccant is exhausted or not. The best way to keepmoisture sensitive components "dry" once the factory sealed bag is opened is tokeep them in a controlled and monitored dry cabinet below 10% rH. Thiswill "pull" the moisture out of the air and out of the parts. Then the qualityof the bag's seal is no longer an issue. All it need do is keep the componentsfrom escaping. In fact, if the seal is too good, it will trap the moisture inthe bag and your dry components will absorb it rather than the dry cabinetremoving it from the air.

Paul Austen
Senior Project Engineer
Electronic Controls Design Inc
Paul been with Electronic Controls Design Inc. (ECD) in Milwaukie, Oregon for over 39 years as a Senior Project Engineer. He has seen and worked with the electronic manufacturing industry from many points of view, including: technician, engineer, manufacture, and customer. His focus has been the design and application of measurement tools used to improve manufacturing thermal processes and well as moisture sensitive component storage solutions.

First - Both are not acceptable provided bag is not vacuumsealed. Usually zip-lock type doesn't get vacuum sealing whereas Heat sealingtype will able to get vacuum sealing. Second - MSD part needto be sealed in moisture barrier bag not any usual bags on account of ESDthrough a validated vacuum sealing machine.

Subrat Prajapati
Supplier Quality Leader
Ge Healthcare
Subrat has 10 year of extensive experience in PCB assembly process optimizing for quality, process includes screen printing, wave, reflow. He has a copyright in stencil design published in Apex Expo2010 at Las Vegas US.

Reader Comment
To add to all the good comments, the Cabinet is the must efficient but expensive way to keep dry the components, especially when you have a lot of material in your warehouse, the cabinet take production space also. zip is just on a shilding bag with out MTV material and is perfect to re-use the bag (just few time -Without mistreating the bag). for MVT the best film material is with foil and this do not use zip, at all, because the aluminum Is very thin and breaks in the zipper area, losing the vacuum.
Matias Aliseda, EXTRUPAC

Reader Comment
J-STD-033 requires the MBB be heat-sealable. There is no allowance for "zip lock"-style MBBs. Therefore, the answer has to be "no".
Rick Wyman, Benchmark Electronics

Reader Comment
I suspect the original question intended "zipper" style ESD bags, and not the SC Johnson brand, "Ziploc." Obviously clear, polyethylene "sandwich bags" are not acceptable for anything but lunchtime. Many manufacturers of ESD static dissipative bagsoffer the smaller sizes with a zipper "seal." One is ESD safe, but neither are suitable for moisture control.

Alan Couchman, Process Sciences, Inc.
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