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  #1  
02-03-2011, 01:37 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I've caught a few myths being repeated by our own members!

For shame! Shame, shame....

Don't worry, I'll be nice to you guys. (I save my scorn for those who profess to be experts or professionals on these topics, and then can't even demonstrate basic knowledge.)

Anyway, I just felt the need to clear up some of what I was reading today:

Quote:
The thing I never understood, pretty much every DVD you purchase from a store is DVD9 (Duel Layer) but they sell the public 'Single Layer' disks. If you own a DVD recorder, you think a normal movie is 2 hours and two hour recordings should be good. But the fact is no recording of a major movie title that is 2 hours would fit on a 'Single Layer' disk. It tells me they want the public to have lower quality recordings. An mpeg2 is just a data file. You can get the same bit-rates that the studios use for their DVD's. You just have to know how to record or encoded.
I may have to dissect this a little more to reply to it...

Quote:
pretty much every DVD you purchase from a store is DVD9 (Duel Layer)
While this is very true -- most commercially released DVDs are manufactured using DVD9 dual layer media -- it's not exactly accurate to assume the disc is full or even well-used. As many people know from simply copying their DVDs, a lot of commercial discs only use about 6GB (at most) of the available 7.85GB of available space. Of that, most of the "excess" content (bytes beyond 4.38GB in size) are used by bonus features, trailers and menus. You'll often find the movies themselves are within a 4GB size.

Therefore, while it may be a DVD9, it's not necessary to achieve the quality found on those discs. A DVD5 would have been fine. You'll find many commercial releases, which lack fancy menus and bonus content, are on DVD5.

Quote:
but they sell the public 'Single Layer' disks
A good number of projects I do (for both myself, and for clients) are now delivered on DVD+R DL media. You can quite easily buy top-quality recordable (burnable) dual-layer DVD9-sized write-once discs.

Want some DVD+R DL media? Get these: Verbatim (Mitsubishi) DVD+R DL from Amazon

Quote:
If you own a DVD recorder, you think a normal movie is 2 hours and two hour recordings should be good.
Well, it would be if the quality of the source and encoding method was better. There are two things that work against you here: the cleanliness of the signal being recorded, and the realtime encoding used by a DVD recorder. Commercial releases almost always use multi-pass VBR encoding, and some of them hand-encode problematic sections of the video with advanced tweaking of the GOP structures, bitrate and matrices.

Quote:
But the fact is no recording of a major movie title that is 2 hours would fit on a 'Single Layer' disk.
As per above, most release movies will, actually, fit a DVD5. The difference comes in the quality of source and the encoding method.

i.e., Scanned film vs VHS tape (or even that "crystal clear" satellite signal)
i.e., Hardware MPEG cards (Matrox, Sonic), or pro-line software encoders (MainConcept, Procoder) vs cheap consumer gear/software

There's also something to be said for filter/clean-up work in the NLE, during pre-encode edits and distribution prep.

Quote:
It tells me they want the public to have lower quality recordings.
While this is probably true, to a degree, among certain studios, it's really not in their control anyway. It is what it is. They have the original best quality film stock and camera masters, while consumers only have access to long-GOP digital or low-res analog copies. For a studio, this is more of a "happy happenstance" than an intentional act of consumer vandalism.

Remember that many studios get pissy about those unwatchable low-res videos you find on Youtube or torrents -- crap that no sane person would punish themselves to watch, yet studios feel threatened by a fuzzy/blocky 2-minute clip. Between that and the original Betamax case, it's pretty safe to safe that "they" don't want anybody to have any recordings of any kind. (Which the laws thankfully DO NOT agree with to date.)

Quote:
An mpeg2 is just a data file. You can get the same bit-rates that the studios use for their DVD's. You just have to know how to record or encoded.
Exactly.

Just remember that the same bitrates may not be good enough if your source isn't the same quality as theirs.


Until next myth....

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  #2  
02-03-2011, 04:40 AM
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Not really sure what you mean by myths.

Why can't they just sell us DVD recorders to make perfect copies of things.....

Guess what I was trying to say: Kind of hard speaking to a bloody computer...

If you record something with low bit-rates u are going to get heavy macro blocking in the picture. Your standard Hollywood DVD is not using the same bit-rates if you recorded something on your DVD recorder in 2 hour mode.

DVD recorders are not big in the USA, cause of the DVR's....

They never really took off, in best buy they may have like 4 machines at most on display for sale....

They have a lot of TiVo's

Lord Smurf, you have even said yourself that these machines have gone backwards....

HD recorders, I think they may be out in the USA, but can't do HDMI inputs....

Normally I find a good 2 hour recording done by a good Hollywood company is around 5 + gigs.

(((That is from ripping DVD's)))

You have no idea how many problems I see in 2 hour VHS to DVD recordings in SP mode done on a crapy recorder...

But the person recording doesn't know it is a crapy cause they don't know anything else....

Now your DVD recorder comes in 2 hour mode, so you are going to use that and not the 1 hour xp mode. That is assuming you have no insight at all to recording things....99.9% of people who use DVD recorders....

You may record to a Duel Layers disk in SP mode and get 3 hours and 40 minutes....Not 2 hours.........

Hence the problem with not getting the best possible quality out of your DVD recorder......

You have been fooled already thinking 2 hour mode is good.

They don't really explain FR recordings to you...

1 hour and 30 minutes is kind of the cut off on a normal single layer disk. For ok Marco Blocking

That was the point I was trying to make....

I did digital tests of frames the other day in SP, FR 80 and XP mode...These were all digital recordings...You can really see a difference in the compression (what is a better word) I don't know...

What I saw was a lot more bleeding of image in SP were in XP mode it was kind of clean.....

Yea some of these Professional DVD's, do have Marco Blocking in the videos. A lot more than u would think also have audio & video out of sync.

Most of the professional VHS to DVD shops as spoken about in the other post issue their DVD's to 2 hour mode......

Maybe that is the simple question to start with, how much information of recoding time can you put on a DVD....Normally they will say 2 hours.....

Yea I still use 2 hour mode for digital recordings...sometimes...For VHS stuff, never the macro blocking is out of control bad......

If you are going to pay a shop to convert your VHS stuff, don't let them record or issue in 2 hour SP mode.....

Last edited by deter; 02-03-2011 at 05:11 AM.
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02-10-2011, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Not really sure what you mean by myths.
Take no offense.

From how I read the other posts, it came across as if there was no way to create a DVD9 like "Hollywood" does, which seemed a bit .... I don't know .... off. Technically you can burn a dual-layer DVD+R DL (DVD9), although there are valid points to be made about source quality. For those who shoot their own DV home movies, using a good camera and good technique (tripod, steadycam, microphones, etc), then there's no reason their homemade DVDs can't be as good as something pressed and sold in a fancy case at the local Best Buy or Walmart.

Most of your points here are "spot on". Very astute and accurate observations.

Quote:
Lord Smurf, you have even said yourself that these machines have gone backwards....
Yes, very much so. Sadly so. The pinnacle of video capture/recording devices was easily late 2004 to late 2006. Each of them had a flaw, however, which could have been correct with a 2nd or 3rd generation of machines in 2007-2008, but it just never happened. Between cheapness ($100 max budgets), societal stupidity (inability to set a clock, much less control a DVD recorder), and the beginning of a worldwide recession that tanked so many companies, video gear is mostly junk in 2009-2011.

Quote:
You have no idea how many problems I see in 2 hour VHS to DVD recordings in SP mode done on a crapy recorder...
But the person recording doesn't know it is a crapy cause they don't know anything else....
I've observed this issue for many years now. In fact, I saw similar problems in the analog-only video era, where people were too stubborn to use a TBC between VCRs when copying tapes. Or worse, using those complete piece-of-crap "GoVideo" dual decks. But wait, there's more! Not just crappy equipment, but using the cheapest garbage RCA video tapes found for $1 or less apiece.

And the person, who you'd swear should have some ounce of intelligence and is clearly not blind, actually thinks this soft + blurry, noisy (chroma + grain), vibrating/shaky picture is "good" or "good enough" (a phrase that roughly translates to "I know it's crap but I refuse to acknowledge it").

Quote:
You have been fooled already thinking 2 hour mode is good.
Yes, many have been fooled into thinking "SP mode" (2-hour recording) is good. Or to go even deeper, than there even is an "SP mode" for digital video (DVD burning). I wrote this post back in mid 2009: Is SP MODE the Best DVD Recorder Mode? (NO!) because I became more and more disgusted by some of the horrible advice I was seeing given out on other "video help" and "TV collector" and "tech support" sites.

Quote:
I did digital tests of frames the other day in SP, FR 80 and XP mode...These were all digital recordings...You can really see a difference in the compression (what is a better word) I don't know...
Compression is the accurate term.

Quote:
Most of the professional VHS to DVD shops as spoken about in the other post issue their DVD's to 2 hour mode......
These aren't professionals. Be sure you read this: How to Tell That a Media "Professional" is a Clueless Twit. I can both anger AND make these sorts of folks feel stupid in about 10 sentences. (Angry because they've been "caught" as an amateur pretending to be a pro, not because I said anything inflammatory.)

While many of us do use DVD recorders for certain projects, because of the features unique to those units, few professionals (none?) ever use the term "mode" when discussing the project. We talk in terms of bitrates, bandwidth, resolutions, etc -- not these fake "modes" on a DVD recorder.

Quote:
Yea I still use 2 hour mode for digital recordings...sometimes...
I do this when I treat my living room DVD recorder like a PVR for 16:9 TV. I'll watch and erase, so no need for the best "mode" (XP 720x480 @ 7.0mb/s).


.................................................. ...........

Talking with fellow TV hobbyists is fun. Granted, we're "preaching to the choir" here, between ourselves. But seeing how this is a public conversation, others will hopefully learn from our discourse. That's why I even bother to participate anywhere online. I can discuss stuff with others, and then it's available for others to learn from.

Good stuff.

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