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  #1  
04-29-2020, 05:34 PM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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Hi folks

a few years ago i did invest in some small vhs-to-pc equipment as panasonic nv-fs200, ati wonder 600 usb, even jvc dr-m100. Also i kept my old pc planing to turn it capture machine... the bad thing was that it wasnt enought to turn it into a hobby... i had only a few vhs family archive tapes, and also time to time a close friends were giving me their family tapes to capture and turn them to DVD's...

My first captures actually were in 2004. I had ATI Radeon 9000 VIVO (no idea how i didnt understood of hardware..) and low-medium end VCR.... i think i used composite.... and WinDVR3... i know you hate it because of too much deinterlace but watching them now i cannot believe how good they are...i totally fucked the quality after the encode... i was too stupid, didnt saved the source files and the encode was Xvid default settings... btw it was world cup usa 94 matches and i think the tapes had super quality...

for the next 15 years i was doing transfers time to time and mostly reading for the "new trends" of capturing...
JVC/Panasonic VCR's , the same old TBC-1000 and ATI wonder 600 usb, Virtual Dub, Huffyuv, WIndows XP!

Like many others i had some free time in the last month so I start reading again and also did some captures... I was expecting to see some new "best" options replacing the pc tuners as ati 600 usb (didnt expect anything new in VCR's and external tbc's). I was hoping for something new better then previous options which will be very easy to use with Win 10 or at least win 7...

So my question is WHy!? Why after so many years still the best option to transfer VHS to AVI is

ATI Wonder 600 USB, VirtualDub, Huffyuv, WINDOWS XP!?

Many talk about Intensity Shuttle + Premiere Pro... but its not the same....

why after so many years we're still dependent of old hardware and Win XP!
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  #2  
04-29-2020, 06:44 PM
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Why should new hardware exist?

Converting analog to digital is a legacy task.

These days, most people redo botched work, either from their own failed attempts, or having been victim of a quack fly-by-night "professional" service. Many DIYers were cheapskates (either by choice, or need), but are now approaching it with quality in mind. While you do see some folks converting for the 1st time, I come across an equal amount that are trying again for better quality.

The biggest catalyst was probably the shift from CRTs and small/crappy HDTVs, to modern 50"+ sets. The flaws of the video are more obvious now. Many are downright unwatchable blocky and wiggly garbage.

Anything new --- and of quality, not a afterthought SD "feature" aka Blackmagic, or a cheap $5 Chinese USB card --- would be niche and pricey. Thus wouldn't sell. Because we have lots of legacy items that already suit that purpose, and for less than new item cost. You also have 10/15/20 years of reputation to challenge. Why buy a new (never heard of before) capture card or TBC, when a used and respected model of TBC is the same price range or less?

Video somewhat follows the used camera market. Some of the best lenses ever made are from decades past, and new lenses are just not as good (less sharp, bad bokeh, etc). Some new lenses are the same quality (so why trade up, or not buy used?). Some are actually better, though it doesn't happen that often. Lens manufacturers known that the used markets are saturated, so production of new lenses becomes less, costs go up. In 2000, I could get a certain f/2.8 lens for under $1000 new, sharp as a tack. A new lens in 2020 now is approaching $2500, far more than inflation alone. The odd offset to that is now that a used lens will cost $1000+, whereas it had been $500-750.

Do I like that we have nothing new AND better? No, of course not.
But do I understand why? Yes.

I want a capture card that acts more like an appliance, leveraging the power of GPUs to offload tasks like QTGMC/59.94 internally (optional on/off) for live-capture to 4:2:2 MPEG, H.264, or Lagarith lossless. With strong TBC ala ES10/15, but without posterization of that passthrough TBC(ish). Using software made for capture, even more than VirtualDub (which is actually a lightweight editor that can also capture). But it never happened.

I often think a primary reason for this was due to ATI being bought/liquidated by AMD, and Canopus being bought/liquidated by Grass Valley. That left us with only Matrox. But Matrox was partially liquidated, split up, etc. I can only imagine what sort of R&D was left in the trashcan. Hauppauge was always about PVR (and what few cards captured well were accident more than not), Philips quit (never good anyway). So what did we have left? Aver, which wasn't great either? Newcomer Blackmagic was more about marketing that having a quality SD product (but was fine for HD, the main purpose anyway).

Windows and Mac OS X further stopped supporting any video, new or legacy. The current OS from each break tons of stuff at updates. It's a regular problem in the video community. Each OS after WinXP and OS X 10.6 got worse. While 7 is stable, it's not XP. 8/10 (more like "10s") are worse of all. Linux is not, and never was, a capture friendly OS either, even worse than Mac, even less hardware/software for capture.

TBCs ceased because chips needed are no longer fabbed. Not that it was a crying shame, because the TBCs made in the 2010s to EOL were lousy. Cypress and Pixie had flaws, DataVideo was weak, several others remained firmly in the broadcast (non-consumer) formats space.

So that's where we are.

XP+AIW, 7+USB (handful of good models), maybe fight 8/10+USB, or bust.

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  #3  
04-29-2020, 10:59 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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The long answer is what Lordsmurf said, the short answer is there is no demand for such a high quality thing, 50% of threads opened in forums like this by newbies asking for new hardware recommendation all have cheap first and quality second mentality, the other 50% already bought the easycap and came to complain about the problems.

Sure I want a new USB 3.0 capture card compatible with all OS's that takes the Y/C and Y/Cb/Cr and convert @ 12bit 4:4:4 color space (overkill for consumer formats but useful for Betacam SP and some other pro formats), while in the digital domain apply a line jitter correction, TBC followed by frame synchronization and an optional proc amp and DNR. But such card ain't gonna cost $20 first, second how many people like me want it?
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04-30-2020, 04:28 AM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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Can we say that - ati600 usb + winXP will give us better capture quality then ati600usb +win 7 or Win 10?

And how you'll compare ati600usb + win7 vs. ATI AGP (9000-9800 series) cards + WInXP.
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  #5  
04-30-2020, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCage View Post
Can we say that - ati600 usb + winXP will give us better capture quality then ati600usb +win 7 or Win 10?
No. OS alone doesn't change quality. It only changes functionality. (Noting that questions have been posed about the proc amp post-XP being unavailable. Still same quality, but some quality-improving features may be blocked in Win7/8/10.)

Quote:
And how you'll compare ati600usb + win7 vs. ATI AGP (9000-9800 series) cards + WInXP.
Same as everything else -- samples. Color on AIW is slightly more accurate.

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  #6  
04-30-2020, 04:50 AM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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So instead of going back to old pc parts and building WInXp machine, is totally ok to stick with 10 year old Win7 machine once configured with ati 600 usb? My level of experience will not be able to use the small advantage of xp (quality-improving features).
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  #7  
04-30-2020, 07:33 PM
scharfis_brain scharfis_brain is offline
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My current capture setup - built several weeks ago - consists of theses parts:
- Dell Optiplex 780 SFF with SSD and HDD
- Windows 10
- Virtual VCR as capturing software
- Panasonic ES10 to do jitter removal (TBCish stuff)
- Terratex Cinergy 400 (PCI SAA7134 based Capture Card inserted via horizontal riser card into the Optiplex)
- Panasonic NV-HS1000

This works quite well for me. As long as the ES10 is in the signal path I get no dropped frames from VirtualVCR.
The only issue remaining are some skipped frames here and there from the ES10. But since I do multiple captures per VHS this is easily corrected when overlaying the captures to further reduce noise introduced by the capturing chain.
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  #8  
04-30-2020, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scharfis_brain View Post
- Virtual VCR as capturing software
Why not VirtualDub?

Quote:
- Panasonic ES10 to do jitter removal (TBCish stuff)
The only issue remaining are some skipped frames here and there from the ES10. But since I do multiple captures per VHS this is easily corrected when overlaying the captures to further reduce noise introduced by the capturing chain.
Dropped/inserted/"skipped" frames are really the same concept. Each present differently, but still the same ultimately outcome: lost data. The "skipped" issue is the most pervasive, as skips are not logged like drops or inserts (noting that some hardware/software also fails to properly reports drops/inserts as well).

Sadly, most modern cards are the worst offenders, especially including Blackmagic and Magewell cards.

The only older 90s/00s cards that are know to do this are the Canopus ADVC boxes. The insert/skip appears to be internalized to the DV box, and not reported as in/out drops.

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  #9  
05-01-2020, 05:49 AM
scharfis_brain scharfis_brain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Why not VirtualDub?
Over the years I settled with VirtualVCR. It is the easiest to use for me and solves the A/V-sync issues.
20 years ago I did my captures with VirtualDub and a 8x8 based TV-card. It was fun to use the Bt8x8-Tweaker back then!


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Dropped/inserted/"skipped" frames are really the same concept. Each present differently, but still the same ultimately outcome: lost data. The "skipped" issue is the most pervasive, as skips are not logged like drops or inserts (noting that some hardware/software also fails to properly reports drops/inserts as well).

Sadly, most modern cards are the worst offenders, especially including Blackmagic and Magewell cards.

The only older 90s/00s cards that are know to do this are the Canopus ADVC boxes. The insert/skip appears to be internalized to the DV box, and not reported as in/out drops.
The frrame-skips I am talking about already happen inside the DMR-ES10.
It seems that my NV-HS1000 has a slightly too fast internal clock thus spitting out the video a tiny fraction of a percent too fast. The DMR-ES10 has a standard clock. Thus being forced to skip a frame now and then.
The frameskips are also present when burning directly to DVD instead of doing passthrough.

But as mentioned earlier. I can live with that since I do at least three captures of a single Tape.
This allows to reduce noise that's been introduced by all the analogue circuity of the hardware used for capturing.

I will need to try some other VCRs. Maybe their clock is different.
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  #10  
05-02-2020, 05:23 PM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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so there is no much advantage of old ati aiw agp card + winxp over , newer machines with Win 7, ati600usb?

I'll tell you why i'm asking this question again.
I have two options!
First -is to choose my old laptop with Win7 for the capture workflow. Save space and its faster.
Second -to keep my old PC , (buy AGP card ATI AIW) , put WinXP. Too old and big machine and still dont know how much better job will do over the laptop with Win7 ,ati600usb ...
As it seems not much.

Last edited by TheCage; 05-02-2020 at 05:37 PM.
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  #11  
05-02-2020, 05:49 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Why do you still keep insisting that an AIW XP system is "old"?
Or a Win7 laptop?

You're old!

"Old" has a connotation of being useless, which is not at all accurate. Yes, the system is aged. We're aged. It's not some "new" young snot-nosed kid/teenager whizbang computer, meant for Facebook and video games. Much like people, computers are a representation of their era, and certain tasks are often locked to that OS/hardware -- and that's not only true of video. For consumer analog tape conversion, that era was the 2000s. There were a lot of workarounds in the 2010s, mostly earlier than later.

A laptop with Win7? It depends on specs. Unless it was a high-end unit (example: Dell M6800), forget about it.

Even an AIW AGP XP setup fully depends on the hardware specs.

Components and chips matter.

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  #12  
05-02-2020, 06:28 PM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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Ok... i'll keep them both
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  #13  
05-03-2020, 05:52 PM
TheCage TheCage is offline
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What about AI software for auto-detecting vhs capture image problems with auto-calibrate& auto-avisynth scripting with all necessary filters and specific settings.... will we see this kind of tool in the next 15 years?
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  #14  
05-04-2020, 06:17 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Hardware to scale video is getting better. I know some scoff at upscaling SD to HD, but I've been using a Matrox MXO2 and its SD scaling to 1080i is really good as well as its AGC control for S-Video input. For 720p60 its deinterlacing is just okay. QTGMC blows it away. I've seen a U-matic 3/4" dub of 1" tape scaled to 720p60 using an AJA FS-1, though, and it looked excellent. However, your source still needs robust timebase. I can't stress that enough.

I should confess I don't do alot of work with VHS. Alot of Hi8, DV and DVCPRO. Hi8 has its own pitfalls, but it's better than VHS. My VHS work was with tried-and-true ATI USB sticks and other prerequisite hardware.
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  #15  
05-04-2020, 11:19 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Analog SD video should be captured in SD lossless interlaced first and then do whatever you want with it later, Upscaling it right out of the source is not a good idea in my opinion.
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