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  #21  
08-19-2021, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
For those who don't think quality matters, your work may appear on broadcast TV. If you frequently post stuff to YouTube, it'll find its way to places. I had a clip of mine appear on WCBS-HD here in NYC as part of a compilation. Compared to the other off-air clips they found off YouTube, my VHS transfer looked fantastic and it was even off an EP recording. Honestly its cringe worthy how terrible some VHS transfers come out. Its really not that much effort to make them look their best.
Yep. Happens often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
Roadfan, are you seriously suggesting I spend over a thousand dollars in gear, invest hours and hours of time learning AVISynth and then hundreds if not thousands of hours processing and restoring VHS just on the off-chance that a broadcaster will pick it up off YT and use it?
Nobody said to do any of that.

For starters, Avisynth is completely optional, and post-capture. So it has no place in a capture conversation. The broadcast comments was equally ridiculous, that's not what NJRoadfan stated at all.

A bare minimum kit is something like this
- good VCR, JVC S-VHS non-TBC (~$200)
- Panasonic ES10/15 for TBC(ish) passthrough (~$125)
- good capture card (~$150) ... and NOT something random or "new" from Amazon/eBay/etc

If you can find those pieces for less, great. But that's fair market price, and you should question condition when it is found cheaper.

Minimum. Not necessarily recommended. But a hell of a lot better than
- thrift store VCRs (or your old VCR from the 80s/90s dug out of the closet/basement/attic),
- no TBC of any kind
- cheap Chinese capture cards (Easycaps aka Easycraps) or the wrong cards (fancy HDMI card like Blackmagic)

You can make that minimum workflow better, by fortifying it with a JVC/Panasonic with-TBC VCR (~$900), and the DataVideo DVK (~$500), if you're still averse to spending over $2k.

I'm getting tired of replying to these sorts of threads, where nonsense retorts are being given. Read what's written.

Yes, this is suggested, about $3k, will make your project go smoothly
- JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with line TBC
- DataVideo/Cypress-type frame TBC
- quality capture cards (or even quality LSI based DVD recorder)

If you value your time, and your sanity, you'll strongly consider this "easy button" workflow.

That means I'd argue the "enthusiast" capturers are actually the ones who enjoy screwing around with hardware and software, in the attempt to get below-budget (cheap!) options to cooperate (maybe, sorta-kinda). You accuse others of spending excess money, but in actuality many folks spending excess time on something that can process much easier and faster with the proper hardware in place. Time is more valuable and finite than money.

Quote:
but the vicious criticism of those of us "enthusiastic amateurs" in the game (as we call them in my profession) who just want to get a reasonable result out of our home movies really is really disappointing and quite frankly, a bit of a turn-off.
The "vicious criticism" is being reserved for amateurs that argue, and are defending their bad purchases, unrealistic budgets, and the dismissal of TBCs outright. As I mentioned elsewhere, all of a sudden, this year, and not before this year, an "I don't need no TBC!" crowd has crawled of the woodwork, much like the current "I don't need no vaccine/mask!" crowd. It's a false contrarian view simply based on wanting to be contrarian, not any reality or science. It's bad enough we have to put up with that BS in daily society, but I'll be damned if that sort of BS leaks into this hobby, which had been somewhat of an escape from our miserable real-world reality since 2020.

As an example, I know you (Hushpower) have a DVK, better capture cards, various quality VCRs. So why are arguing here? You've spend around $1k, so WTF? Where did "are you seriously suggesting I spend over a thousand dollars" come from? Are you just arguing for sport?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
There's quite a peculiar culture in this field of a few self-appointed experts making decrees from upon high the right-and-wrong of every nuance of this.
This is a straw man argument, and an attempt to give yourself more credibility by tearing down others. There's no "decrees", simply various folks sharing decades of experience of what DOES and DOES NOT work (not well, or not at all).

Quote:
There's shades of grey in all of this,
That's a statement that I've made for decades. Offline and online. The world doesn't fit in two convenient categories. I detest the "yer either wit us, or again us!" attitude.

Quote:
there's a constant feeling that unless you're prepared to spend a thousand dollars/pounds/euro on your kit
Again, for the zillionth time, nobody is saying that.

But the reality is the less you spend, the more problems, and the more work you bring onto yourself. A $1k+ basic workflow (more like $3k these days, and again basic) will simply work 99% of the time. When you start cutting corners, it will save costs, but each cut increases the potential problem/time element.

Quote:
but maybe you've got better things to spend money on than a few hundred on a capture set-up, that's sometimes forgotten.
Buy it, use it, resell it.
Good gear holds value, has buyers for it. Crap gear won't resell, your market for it is fellow cheapskates.

Quote:
I'm not sure what the thing about broadcasters picking it up is trying to arrive at either, whilst that must be quite flattering I'm surprised the broadcaster didn't have any Tx masters or RoTs? Maybe they're just not maintained wherever NJRoadmaster was from? If they're personal camcorder footage, do you want them broadcast would be my initial reply?
I know NJ is from NJ, and he may even be in the NYC market. So, not little.

You give broadcasters too much credit, in terms of research time (for something that may only last 15-30 seconds), and the ability to acquire it. Even documentaries often go the Youtube route these days, with far more time, sometimes budget (vs per story).

Quote:
I don't watch television so I won't spend more than about 150 on one grudgingly every decade or so,
You're in a minority here.

And your lower-quality standards now make more sense, because you're not seeing the video with anything other than a small preview. When you actually sit to watch the video, on a larger screen, as almost everybody will these days (also why so many projects are now redone), it will look bad if converted with bad/cheap methods. Every flaw is magnified.

The worst two errors are no-TBC wiggles/movements, and chroma noise that looks like red/blue amoeba invaded your TV screen. Fix that pair of errors, keep audio in sync, and avoid blown highlights/darks, and you're fine. But getting there will require some basic tools, namely line+frame TBC.

Quote:
some people love television and spend thousands.
Most do, not just some. You can buy a huge 75"+ TV for as low as $750 these days. It's almost hard to believe. I remember spending double that, for a 55", in the 2010s.

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  #22  
08-19-2021, 11:21 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is online now
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I think again, this proves what many are trying to point out to a few on here... No wonder this place is so quiet. If you think the majority of people are sharing captured family videos on huge screens, that goes very much against what I've found... Sounds a bit "boomerish" if you'll forgive the parlance.

Did you get my PM by the way? Talking of "quality standards"...
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  #23  
08-20-2021, 03:32 PM
ilhank ilhank is offline
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Hi Everyone,

I have been away from this thread for a little while as I expected the email notifications to keep updating me with new replies – apparently you only get a notification for the first reply.

In case it's of value, and because I did agree with some of your points more than others, let me give some of my perspective as I read through these posts for a second time.

Quote:
[My] goal in investing in this hardware was to get the best image quality I can as I digitize and archive family videos.
(Re-emphasizing my original goal of buying top-of-the-line equipment a year ago.)

Quote:
it's very easy for you to be judged on equipment rather than results
Regarding your concerns RR:

I'm not really worried about what others think about my choice of equipment – so long as I'm getting the best help I can to create the best video captures I can.

I've already chosen my equipment based on the recommendations in this forum.

Quote:
What works best for you:
- "Do it, or else!"
- "Do it, and I'll bake you cookies!"
Haha - "Do it, and I'll bake you cookies!" sounds about right! I want to get excited about the positive results I can achieve!

Quote:
Read it again. It's for personal, not business.
Yep, personal.

Quote:
Not if you don't know what you're looking at [...] most people value "sharpness" (false sharpening, complete with ringing/halos) and "color" (false boosted), when viewed at a small size. Another major issue is most people have craptastic shiny computer, laptop, tablet and phone monitors. But they still mostly watch video on a TV, not a Youtube clip at 12 inches or less on a small screen.
I think this is a really fair point. I don't want to make mistakes like this in my original capture.

Quote:
Your gear is fine, just use it.
Perfect! That is the encouragement I needed

Quote:
Not [equipment overkill] at all. You have a basic VCR>TBC>capture workflow, with excellent quality pieces.
Excellent!

Quote:
... or [post ads to do others' tapes on] the marketplace here.
Cool! Even more incentive to get on top of it! Thanks

Quote:
But when you paint with such an overly broad brush, with that sort of statement, you lump in conspiracy crazies and the uneducated, with factual info and science. There is nuance in this world. [...] I would argue that certain experts opinions are far more adjacent to fact. [...]Educated opinions based on fact should carry far more weight than opinions based on nothing.
I come here for the expertise and wouldn't have invested in the equipment I did if I didn't trust your expertise.

I don't have to be "perfect" (i.e. I don't think I'm going to invest in a Windows XP machine – and will make due with the USB capture card I have unless if something goes wrong).

If I get 90+% of the way there I am ecstatic, and somehow I trust I'll be even better than that.

Quote:
[...] but realistically at what is in front of you is worth a hundred dull discussions about line TBCs or opinions on which machine is best.
Agreed. I won't be changing the equipment I have unless if something breaks and I need to replace it mid-project.

Quote:
"Good enough."

Or "restored" with the Monkey Jesus method.
This made me laugh.

Quote:
Too often, I see videos, hear reliable stories, about how history (personal or to society) have been butchered by people that think it looks good.
I wanted to be sure I actually have a *good* (well, excellent) video capture. Not just something I thought looked good.

My investment is in my peace of mind, based on my trust in the expertise of this forum.

Quote:
I'm an advocate for good work, for quality work. "Best" is often unobtainable perfection.
I think we are aligned.

Quote:
The opposite of good/quality is bad/"good enough".

I've always found "good enough" to be an excuse for poor quality.
I like this point and your elucidation of it.

Quote:
I was only trying to give the guy a bit of encouragement anyway,

Yep, same here.

He (she?) really does seem to have everything ready to go.
- tapes, check
- hardware, check
- time, check

Pull that trigger.


Quote:
But the #1 client that wants quality is the person trying to preserve family memories with quality.
This is absolutely me – and quality is the right word.

Quote:
If you share anything, with anybody, they'll care.
I look forward to sharing the videos I capture with my family members. I think it will mean a lot.

Quote:
Not really. Everybody takes times for things that truly matter to them. They spend money on things that matter to them as well. For many folks, that's photo and video of family.


Quote:
To the OP, one encouragement I can think of is to start discovering what's really on your source tapes. Start with one and you'll get hooked. This can be a fun & rewarding hobby besides.
Yes, you are correct about this! That's my goal – start with one, capture it using my equipment and recommended software, understand the workflow, and then it's a matter of churning through them while enjoying the fruits of my labour.

Quote:
If video was as easy as a $10 thrift store VCR, and the cheapest $5 capture card from Wish/eBay/Amazon (Easycaps), using whatever software you wanted, then you'd never have forums like this. After all, we don't have forum dedicated to easy things like making toast (toastFAQ.com, "Use peanut butter, or else!).
Also agreed.

Quote:
threadjacking
It does appear that this is what happened here!

Quote:
If you value your time, and your sanity, you'll strongly consider this "easy button" workflow.
I do. I did.

Quote:
That means I'd argue the "enthusiast" capturers are actually the ones who enjoy screwing around with hardware and software, in the attempt to get below-budget (cheap!) options to cooperate (maybe, sorta-kinda). You accuse others of spending excess money, but in actuality many folks spending excess time on something that can process much easier and faster with the proper hardware in place. Time is more valuable and finite than money.
Agreed 100%.

Quote:
And your lower-quality standards now make more sense, because you're not seeing the video with anything other than a small preview. When you actually sit to watch the video, on a larger screen, as almost everybody will these days (also why so many projects are now redone), it will look bad if converted with bad/cheap methods. Every flaw is magnified.
I expect this to be true, and it's part of the reason I want the best capture I can get.

Next steps for me:
1. Clear a workspace.
2. Gather up all my equipment.
3. Boot up the Windows 7 computer and see what I get.
4. Start browsing the forum for basic guides on getting started.
5. Start another thread where I document my progress.
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  #24  
08-20-2021, 08:11 PM
Hushpower Hushpower is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE Lord Smurf
As an example, I know you (Hushpower) have a DVK, better capture cards, various quality VCRs. So why are arguing here? You've spend around $1k, so WTF? Where did "are you seriously suggesting I spend over a thousand dollars" come from? Are you just arguing for sport?
At the risk of prolonging the "forever" debate, I do have "various quality" VCRs (you'd probably cringe; unfortunately it is impossible to buy a S-VHS VCR in Oz), a good modern capture stick (IOData GV-USB2), an ES-15 and a DVK-200 (which you very kindly bought for me; thank you). Total cost? VCR $180, GV-USB2 $80 (runs flawlessly on Win 10 and as good as the 710-USB that cost 3 times as much), ES-15 $100 and DVK $200. Not $1,000. I'm sorry, but there is no way I'd pay $1000 just for a proper frame TBC of the TBC-100 ilk, especially with the increasing number of horror stories about this expensive, ageing gear going wonky. With my tapes, based on what I am seeing with the DVK-200, the benefit just would not outweigh the cost.

My videos are "good enough".

Added: Having now read back through the thread, my quip about the "thousands" was directed specifically at Roadfan's implication that you get really good gear just in case some random picks up your video off YT.
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  #25  
08-20-2021, 10:30 PM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
Definitely, I've been a keen amateur photographer for decades and that is something I've realised in that field too, it's very easy for you to be judged on equipment rather than results. It's an instinct I think, and I'm strongly of the opinion we're all guilty of it at some point or another - same with just about another field, web-forums of every subject are crammed with opinions repeated until they become established fact - no doubt there's a thesis in that for somebody.

It's not a criticism of this forum (or any other) but more broadly of human nature...
My experience of various forums (and human nature generally) concurs. When various comparison files are uploaded with the equipment used identified, the comments and opinions tend to pour in freely. But the same files uploaded with no equipment listed often receive little or no comments. It seems people are waiting for the "answer" which is their favourite piece of gear identified, or the gear which will make them look good in the eyes of certain other people on the forum. It's cheating.

If a video fault only requires a still to demonstrate it then only a still is necessary. If it needs a motion image then a motion image it should be. But the equipment used shouldnt be identified until after people have cast their votes and expressed their judgements.

Results, as opposed to claims, are all that matter IMO.
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  #26  
08-20-2021, 11:37 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilhank View Post
as I expected the email notifications to keep updating me with new replies – apparently you only get a notification for the first reply.
Odd. Quick link = http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/subs...iption&t=12098
That link is in the Thread Tools dropdown above the top thread. Something I shall note in our redesign notes, something that needs attention.

Quote:
Haha - "Do it, and I'll bake you cookies!" sounds about right! I want to get excited about the positive results I can achieve!
Ah, then I shall give the most important reply you'll find in this thread...

While I'm tempted to mail you some cookies, here the next best thing...

I've had no success at "from scratch" cookies, and find that most recipes are equally lousy (so I long ago quit trying to follow them). But I can "doctor up" quite well. Buy a "Betty Crocker Oatmeal Chocolate Chip Cookie Mix". I get mine here (Target). That's the base you start from.

The directions call for butter OR oil, and eggs.
For my recipe, add butter AND oil, and TWO eggs.
Now the mix is watery.
Add 1 heaping scoop of flour (~1+ cup), should no longer be watery.

Add two hands full (~2 cups) of walnuts OR pecans (I normally like pecans most, but these cookies taste better with walnuts). You can chop (make more stuff dirty), or just break them apart with your fingers (my choice).

Add another cup of chocolate chips, dark chocolate best.

Add two normal packages of Reese's Pieces (or M&Ms, but the peanut butter is better, and you already have chocolate chips). Mentioned if allergic to peanuts.

Add handful (~2 cups) of craisins (best), or raisins.

Add cup of chopped dates -- pre-soak (but not swimming!) on a plate for 10 min before using.

OPTIONAL: Add tablespoon sugar, if you want them overly sweet (I don't). Plain ol' sugar
OPTIONAL: Add several shakes of cinnamon (half tsp?) OR granulated maple syrup

At least once, I removed the chocolate chips and Reese's, added blue food coloring (which turned green, "Smurfs are green, adjust your TV!" ), and called them "Smurfberry cookies". But as fun as that was, by removing the chocolate chips, they turned into rock cookies. So still trying another Smurfberry cookies recipe.

The batter will stir up like gravel, but will rise into big fat yummy cookies. I never use the oven over 350 (F) for cookies, and it always takes about 10 minutes longer than the package claims.

Bake yourself a pile prior to starting your new capture project.

Quote:
Next steps for me:
1. Clear a workspace.
2. Gather up all my equipment.
3. Boot up the Windows 7 computer and see what I get.
4. Start browsing the forum for basic guides on getting started.
5. Start another thread where I document my progress.
1. Don't put the capture computer on the desk. You'll hate it, or at least should. Heat, noise, no place to put stuff you're working on, take notes, etc.
2.
3. Thankfully, Win7 has enough info online that most issues are easy to solve, even more than WinXP. And all the Win7 official ISOs are on Archive.org if you need one. I did, twice, earlier this year. I had a key (sticker on system), but no disc.
4.
5. Good idea.
6. Bake cookies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
At the risk of prolonging the "forever" debate, I do have "various quality" VCRs (you'd probably cringe; unfortunately it is impossible to buy a S-VHS VCR in Oz), a good modern capture stick (IOData GV-USB2), an ES-15 and a DVK-200 (which you very kindly bought for me; thank you).
GV-USB2 $80 (runs flawlessly on Win 10 and as good as the 710-USB that cost 3 times as much),
and DVK $200.
based on what I am seeing with the DVK-200, the benefit just would not outweigh the cost.
especially with the increasing number of horror stories about this expensive, ageing gear going wonky. With my tapes,
It's not impossible to get S-VHS deck (VCRshop.nl). But I have lots of basic VCRs, too. I just don't use them for anything of value, mostly to test tapes and TBCs, and sometimes show samples of how non-TBC decks perform.

The reason it cost you under $1k is you got a really unusually good deal on that DVK, which more often has a $500+ price point. As I recall, there was also some % of gamble on your part, which is why it was sent here for me to inspect, and then proxy ship. Kudos to you for the good buy, but it's somewhat misleading when discussing pricing.

Jury's still out on the GV-USB2. Maybe, maybe not. Probably at least decent.

I think your setup is decent, a budget workflow.

Yes, bad gear on eBay is a huge problem these days. What's worse is that "for parts" junk is now commanding huge prices, both on eBay and off, so it's not even economically possible to refurb some items anymore. For example, it often takes at least two decks to make one good ones. Even places like Goodwill are now pegging pricing to eBay (video gear, action figures, books, comics, etc), and outright sell on eBay as well.

Quote:
Roadfan's implication that you get really good gear just in case some random picks up your video off YT.
That's still not what he wrote. What he did write, however, was that Youtube has become a source for broadcasters, and the idea of "for me only" is nonsense when you share on Youtube. So a question becomes, "Would you rather have bad quality, or no quality?" And sometimes, it'd be MUCH better to NOT have the crappy quality clip. Let another better quality clip be picked up instead, if you (the clip uploader) are quality averse, and even selfish (me, my, mine). Note: the royal "you", not you you. A bad quality clip, to be blunt, is really nothing more than a video c***tease (look at what you're not going to get). I sometimes wish Youtube would have a minimum quality bar to upload -- none of that wiggly VHS mess allowed, unless in some sort of art or education (teaching video technique/info) category. Not for general viewing. What's the point, when it's really not enjoyable to view, aka unviewable low-quality crap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtape View Post
But the same files uploaded with no equipment listed often receive little or no comments.
I never do that. The bigger problem is that stills tell you nothing for most comparisons. And that's actually a reason comments aren't left. Most people have to be prodded into uploading clips, and even then those clips can be somewhat useless to show whatever they're trying to show. Samples clips (video education) is an art unto itself.

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  #27  
08-23-2021, 04:03 PM
ilhank ilhank is offline
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Thank you for the cookies recipe and suggestion!

This certainly adds a nice little reward to the process
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