Encouragement needed to digitize VHS?
 

Hi Guys,

I bought the following equipment from lordsmurf last year and got side-tracked with work, starting a business, and other projects.

JVC SR-V10 A+
Composite TBC (I also was able to buy a TBC-1000 off of eBay.)
ATI 600 USB
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz

I have a Windows 7 PC that I can use for this work.

I think it's finally time I get to this project.

Can you guys just give me a bit of encouragement that I can do it? And maybe it's not that hard?

Maybe I should start a thread and start going through it step by step.

Thanks everyone,
Ilhan

Good luck with it all Ilhan! Starting a business is never an easy thing ever so congratulations.

Do work you like, personally, I don't use any of the recommended equipment* on here but I'm confident in my work - please yourself and don't get too swept up in technical minutiae - it will distract you. Whilst it's always fun to worry about the merits of x-box over y-box in reality to a good number of people it makes little to no real-world difference. Not to say there isn't some junk out there, the most certainly is!

Your eyes are the best tool you have, and if something doesn't look or feel right it probably isn't. My advice for lurking around these sorts of forums for a year or two is images but don't give away too much info about the kit you have used. I know from another person who uses these forums sometimes the purity tests attached to your equipment will be a greater judge of your work than what you present. In 'another place' I've seen two identical images posted, one listing it was made on x-model machine with y-model TBC and it got a far more positive reception than the otherwise identical image listing the actual equipment it was made on.

Enjoy it, there's a wealth of resources out there and best of luck!

RR

*(I have a pair of FS-NV200s in the locker as backups).

Thanks RR!

That's an interesting point about not sharing my hardware and asking for feedback based on images alone.

I'm really more concerned about getting everything connected and running — so I may need help with that in a future thread. If an image is way off, I'd like someone to tell me. But I'm not changing any equipment beyond what I have.

For more insight, my goal in investing in this hardware was to get the best image quality I can as I digitize and archive family videos. Probably overkill but I figure I can always sell the hardware later or post ads on Craigslist to convert others' family tapes.

Definitely, I've been a keen amateur photographer for decades and that is something I've realised in that field too, it's very easy for you to be judged on equipment rather than results. It's an instinct I think, and I'm strongly of the opinion we're all guilty of it at some point or another - same with just about another field, web-forums of every subject are crammed with opinions repeated until they become established fact - no doubt there's a thesis in that for somebody.

It's not a criticism of this forum (or any other) but more broadly of human nature.

That is (and I make this plain) not to say you've been steered in the wrong direction and it looks to me (as a non-gearhead) that you have a very high quality set-up there!

A solid archive of your treasured family moments is more useful by an order of magnitude than pages of tense technical waffle about a skewed field or cries of 'if only you'd have used a brand-y widget' in your signal chain.

What works best for you:
- "Do it, or else!"
- "Do it, and I'll bake you cookies!" :laugh:

Read it again. It's for personal, not business. :wink2:

It depends on how far you deviate from the recommendations. These items are recommended for a reason. To go back to cookies, it's not like we're simply suggesting chocolate chip over peanut butter or macaroons. No, there are factual technical difference, such as some form of TBC being a requirement (with barebones line TBCs still not solving all the issues, aka S-VHS VCR line TBCs and ES10/15 line TBC, but also paired with frame TBCs). We don't want you to put concrete or dog turds into your cookie dough!

Not if you don't know what you're looking at. "Your own eyes" is how we get myths like "COVID vaccines magnetizing people", because "their own eyes" saw a fork get stuck to their forehead. What they don't realize is other factors caused that, completely unrelated to whatever is swimming in their blood (be it a vaccine, or a 6-pack of Bud Light). Seek out expert guidance (aka, this forum), to understand why you see what you see.

With video, images are deceiving. You must have motion clips to see the flaws and issues, for a true(r) comparison. I say (r) because other items in a workflow still come into play (capture card, source tapes). It's not 100% true, because other variables always exist.

And then most people value "sharpness" (false sharpening, complete with ringing/halos) and "color" (false boosted), when viewed at a small size. Another major issue is most people have craptastic shiny computer, laptop, tablet and phone monitors. But they still mostly watch video on a TV, not a Youtube clip at 12 inches or less on a small screen.

So that statement isn't really deterministic of anything. :2cents:

Not really. If you post images, 9+ times out of 10, clips will be requested instead, and you'll be told that images showcase nothing. Stills are helpful to illustrate concepts like deinterlace, and certain noises, but clips are required for comparisons on concepts like TBC performance. It's just misleading.

Your gear is fine, just use it. :)

Not at all. You have a basic VCR>TBC>capture workflow, with excellent quality pieces.

... or the marketplace here. ;)

But sometimes it's fair. For example, if you're holding a Polaroid camera in a dark room (or even a well-lit outdoor scene, for that matter), your image will suck, there is no way to defend that. The end, no excuse, the quality blows. As another example, those cheap Chinese HDMI adapter, as promoted by know-nothing video goobers on Youtube, butcher video. The equipment is garbage.

But when you paint with such an overly broad brush, with that sort of statement, you lump in conspiracy crazies and the uneducated, with factual info and science. There is nuance in this world. We have loudmouth Fred Flintstones (or Trumps), that loudly spew nonsense over and over again. But then we also have expert voices that equally repeat info over and over.

I would argue that certain experts opinions are far more adjacent to fact. It reminds me of a The Big Bang Theory episode from S2, where Stewart tells Sheldon that he "couldn't be more wrong". Sheldon retorts that wrong is an "absolute state, not subject to gradation". To which Stewart replies, (paraphrased) "sure it is, to call a tomato a vegetable is a little wrong, to call it a suspension bridge is very wrong". And I agree. Same concept here. Educated opinions based on fact should carry far more weight than opinions based on nothing.

In the world of video, I've seen this play out before. In the end, facts and educated opinion win over BS. I still remember when people proclaimed Ritek as best media ever in the 2000s (it wasn't), or when Go.Video dual-decks were being touted as the best VCRs in the 90s (they not only were not best, but actually one of the worst VCRs ever made). Same for Panasonics DVD E-series recorders in 2000s, "best ever" (not!), complete with massive IRE and luma green-shifting issues that even grandmas could see on small CRTs.

That's not entirely true. If you lack line TBC, the video will look bad, wiggly. Without some NR (S-VHS VCR NR, etc), it will look like red and blue amoebas have infected your tapes (chroma noise). So there's a baseline requirement.

But sure, when you get into detailers, proc amps, audio mixers, you're looking more at imperfections, not elephants in the quality room. Those are indeed widgets, sometimes fidgety widgets, and using them is often rewarding. But it's not often a make-or-break quality issue.

I'm confident in my opinion that if it is visually pleasing to the person who's watching it, then it's on balance probably a good job. It doesn't mean it's technically the best job, nor couldn't be improved upon but I stand by the broad advice that looking critically but realistically at what is in front of you is worth a hundred dull discussions about line TBCs or opinions on which machine is best.

I don't think that's a controversial opinion?

Oh, and re-read the initial post regarding 'business'. :congrats:

I don't know.

If we let random people archive things that matter to others, with whatever "their eyes" told them was good, using their an uneducated opinions, extremely amateur tools, no artistic skills, etc, our world may have a lot less historical records and restored artwork.

I can easily see how the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and other documents would probably be covered in Scotch tape ("fix the tears"), folded in half, wedged in a book on a shelf.

"Good enough."

Or "restored" with the Monkey Jesus method.

Too often, I see videos, hear reliable stories, about how history (personal or to society) have been butchered by people that think it looks good.

I don't disagree.

But the statement, "do work you like" and "watching things and judge them realistically but critically" aligned to your reply could be taken a tad uncharitable don't you think?

This is your passion which I respect and have a great deal of admiration for, but there comes a point where good, satisfying, quality work might not perfectly align with ideals of technically 'best' work, do you not agree? It's just an opinion of mine, I might be entirely wrong - it has been known to occur.

I was only trying to give the guy a bit of encouragement anyway, there's plenty of people who will uncritically just rubbish work because 'reasons'. Have you ever come across that?

I don't understand the question. :hmm:

No.

I'm an advocate for good work, for quality work. "Best" is often unobtainable perfection.

The opposite of good/quality is bad/"good enough".

I've always found "good enough" to be an excuse for poor quality. It was the kid that tried to do his homework 5 minutes before class, and hoped to get anything above a 0, but it'd maybe a C at best. He'd pat himself on the back, and considered his "effort" (bastardized definition there) to be "good enough". It's just a defense for lazy, shoddy work.

There's lot of topics where I don't know what I don't know. :salute:

But I openly admit it. Too many folks try to cover, to bluster their way through. "reasons" is a common BS type response, usually (but not always) an easy tell of blustering. I try to educated myself as best I can, and I wish others would do the same.

ASIDE -- The only exclusion that I know of, something I've had to do myself, is give "reasons" as a response when bound. For example, NDA, internal need-to-know, etc. I can say what I can say, but not able to say more, even if I want to. That situation does sometimes elicit snarky responses from entitled peanut galleries, but the only other option is to just not participate in the conversation (which is sometimes a worse alternative, as it lets misinformation continue to fester). I usually hate NDAs.

Yep, same here.

He (she?) really does seem to have everything ready to go.
- tapes, check
- hardware, check
- time, check

Pull that trigger. :D

I second this. Not to take it too far, but there is a point where something is just good enough (or even better than expected) all things considered.

I use an AIW card as advised here and I'm really impressed in being able to cap and edit lossless. Authored to DVD with a high bitrate (as advised here) and I'm really blown away with the results.

I don't use a TBC of any kind. I don't use S-Video. YMMV obviously, but I have to reiterate: the results I get impress me all things considered.

I like the VCR I have. I like to keep the signal chain analog before it goes into the AIW card. I use stable source tapes. I want the footage to look like it came from VHS.

It's too myopic to focus on one criteria without considering others.

If I were Mr. LordSmurf and run a business and count discriminating corporate clients among their customers who want nothing less but a flawless-looking video that doesn't look like it was taken from VHS, then yes I have to obtain the expensive equipment that will allow me to do that.

But my DVDs are seen only by family members who watch them a few times and move on.

There are just too many variables.

And sometimes when we're doing this as a hobby we only have ourselves as the audience, simply because no one else really cares. People are incredibly busy. Or people don't want to watch deceased family members, or see the person they've divorced, or be reminded of someone in the past whom they dislike, see themselves as awkward adolescents, or something else.

Corporation don't want quality, because corporations don't convert videos.

There are some filmmakers, some TV stations, some studios, and some archive organizations/museums. But most of those are late to the game, however it's actually been beneficial to them, skipping over the DVD/XviD/Flash compression era.

And there are also video hobbyists/enthusiasts with lots of recorded TV and movies -- but we're a dying breed, thanks to streaming (Netflix, Youtube, etc).

But the #1 client that wants quality is the person trying to preserve family memories with quality.

Not really possible. Interlacing is the biggest hurdle, followed by color-under and chroma offset/bleed.

How very callous of you. Most families want to see the past, not "move on".

And many (most?) family member have higher video quality standards, even if certain family members do not. Some may just be passive aggressive, and simply complain that it looks bad. Others will ensure it looks good.

That will change in time, too, due to deaths. You have no idea how many videos are re-done, because the first conversion attempt was a bad DIY (or bad "professional" job). It's suddenly important when family members pass. It's all you have left of them. Some video, some photos, some trinkets.

If you share anything, with anybody, they'll care.
If you're watching it alone, never share, then you're right, nobody will care other that you.

That would be a small minority, and quite frankly a person that probably needs some therapy to overcome their issues.

Not really. Everybody takes times for things that truly matter to them. They spend money on things that matter to them as well. For many folks, that's photo and video of family. For others, sadly, it may be hookers and blow.

Anyway, again, you're just arguing costs. You complain about DIY costs, and you'd complain about service costs. So it's not really about the quality aspect, but the costs. And you'll defend the low quality of low costs as a result. I've been doing this for decades, that old chestnut doesn't work on me.

Nice try, but no. :disagree:

With no line TBC, your video quality will have defects, likely many defects..
With no frame TBC, or even bare frame sync paired to a line TBC, you'll have drop/insert/sync issues.
Those are facts, not opinions.

There's no reason to not get, at bare minimum, an ES10/15. You'll still have issues, but far less than using nothing at all.

And I find it hard to believe that an ATI AIW cards gives no issues without any TBC. It's a great card, but it's not a card that ignores flaws, and just chugs along like nothing is wrong with the signal.

Words well said; the most sensible on this thread IMO. I'm a techie and like the technical aspects, but those aspects are no replacement for good human judgement & decision making.

To the OP, one encouragement I can think of is to start discovering what's really on your source tapes. Start with one and you'll get hooked. This can be a fun & rewarding hobby besides.

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say - I opened this thread with trepidation expecting another lashing for a counter-opinion to some of the narrative on here.

I'm a technical guy too, but this is as much a creative hobby as it is a technical one to an extent, we can forever pursue the zenith of technical excellence (remember, ultimately we're generally working with worn-out domestic video-tape here) or encourage people to think critically and improve without browbeating those asking genuine questions for daring to use a different model of machine which does seem de-rigour on here.

This is not to say that any advice is invalid and there is most definitely sound reason for engaging on all technical aspects: this is a very technical process after all.

But to a good number of people who want to transfer some videotapes some answers on here do seem to wander in to "if you dont' buy x-model of y you're a chump because I said so" which isn't especially helpful to many people.

Generally, I've found people are more appreciative of helping with judging their own work and guiding them to technical advice rather than screaming at the clouds about video-machine model numbers.

I think you're wrong on this, more-over your viewpoint is objectionable.

I do this as part of my business activity (you know, a business, with an address, staff, a reception, a viewing room) and I probably interact with 10-20 members of the public a week when they come in to view their work before delivery.

It's not without reason that I always firstly tell clients what I found on the tapes before showing them anything, there's a box of tissues on the coffee table and I always put the remote into the client's hand.

I've seen manifold reactions to joy, tear-jerking sadness, I've had clients hug me, and I've had some view the screen and walk out never to be seen again, or a follow-up email to say thanks, but I don't want that footage. Why?

Most people don't have the ability to decode videotape by eye (with or without a recommended TBC) and it's easy as years go by to forget what might be on a tape, seeing something (or usually somebody) on a screen can present a visceral reaction.

With deference to my clients' I won't retell stories (and they're not especially forum-friendly) but if genuinely believe that this is not a thing that happens at least semi-routinely then you've had a very different experience to myself.

My experience is split pretty evenly between both genders too.

What is your experience with clients? Is this something you've seen or experienced? Remember I'm in Britbongland too, we're not especially known for public outpouring of emotion.

Not if you don't know what you don't know. If you've never seen a line TBC remove all the wiggle and crap from a VHS tape, you can't make a fair assessment. You'll just assume it "looks good" (ie, "I guess that's as good as it gets") ... until you see a video that actually looks good.

We're trying to help you at this site, not do some sort of nefarious waller-draining dastardly deed (mwahaha!).

If you simply want to avoid quality (no TBCs, using non-recommended gear), due to overly pinching pennies (seriously, $100 is too much for the ES10/15?), then that's on you. But don't try to pass it off as being anything but a financially motivated decisions. Others aren't tightwads, and will easily allocate the funds needed to do a good job.

As I wrote in another thread "mah judgment" (uneducated assessment) is how we get myths and misunderstandings. Not just in video, but things like "COVID vaccine magnetized me!" because their sweaty/oily forehead caused a fork to adhere to it for a few moments. Now then, when you've studied something, you can make educated judgments. In the case of TBCs, you see before/after of how it works, and can then use it when it helps (which is almost always), and remove it when not (rarer, but happens).

I don't know what site you're reading, but that never happens on this site. :question:

As you properly state, video is technical. There are some minimum requirements to have a quality transfer, or even a successful transfer. For example, some form of TBC -- and the better the TBCs, the fewer issues and artifacts you'll have. And there's various VCRs and capture cards to definitely avoid, and some models that are definitely suggested. My advice ranges greatly from minimalist setups (>$500) to truly professional workflows ($10k+).

If video was as easy as a $10 thrift store VCR, and the cheapest $5 capture card from Wish/eBay/Amazon (Easycaps), using whatever software you wanted, then you'd never have forums like this. After all, we don't have forum dedicated to easy things like making toast (toastFAQ.com, "Use peanut butter, or else!).

And in a strip mall, too?

But not every business operates a public facility, especially not in the current era of COVID. I surely don't want strangers breathing on me right now. My background is studios, and you didn't get in there without swiping a security pass. The public was not allowed, and even sections of the facility had different clearance levels. We worked with worldwide clients (broadcasters, smaller studios, distribution like iTunes, etc), and 99% was done via mail and email. We didn't have time-wasting gab sessions (in person, or on the phone), and email was needed for documentation. That model works efficiently with consumers, too, especially in our modern ecommerce era. I rarely shop offline anymore, especially for technical needs, especially in this COVID era, and most people are now of that mindset.

And I want to reiterate our stance that any business NOT using quality gear (VCRs, TBCs, capture cards), should be avoided. People don't need to pay others for inferior work that they can do on their own with equally-cheap setups. Or better yet, get at least a minimalist TBC(ish), and do better work.

But none of that matters here. The OP wants to DIY, and has all the hardware for it already. You're sidetracking the conversation off-topic again.

I had to look up that term, it's not one I've heard before but you'll be reassured: no. That's not really a concept that we have over in Brexitstan, just tatty High Streets, we've got plenty of those.

So, in a word - "no", this isn't something you've actually dealt with when you strip away the verbiage, or not that I can make out by your reply. That's fine, kudos to you, but don't just deny (or belittle) something that demonstrably happens.

I've noticed you do accuse people of "sidetracking" once they point out something in one of your replies, same as always saying "only qualifications matter" in many posts until they're presented to you, then they're ignored.

All I can do is present what I have seen and say "yeah, that is a thing that happens in my experience".

No, I don't hug clients. :weird:

The actual term is "threadjacking" on forums. I'm both responding to your off-topic threadjacks, and trying to steer the conversation back toward the original post. Since your first reply, you've made statements about business, and not needing XYZ gear, but the OP already has gear. He wanted encouragement to do the project, not read the long-winded whatever-this-is that the thread has turned into. My next action will be to just lock it, since the OP probably lost interest in his thread, since it meandered far away from his original topic.

Great. Then let's end that off-topic right there. :congrats:

Somewhat of a misquote!;)

But yeah, you're right - it is clogging the thread up.

For those who don't think quality matters, your work may appear on broadcast TV. If you frequently post stuff to YouTube, it'll find its way to places. I had a clip of mine appear on WCBS-HD here in NYC as part of a compilation. Compared to the other off-air clips they found off YouTube, my VHS transfer looked fantastic and it was even off an EP recording. Honestly its cringe worthy how terrible some VHS transfers come out. Its really not that much effort to make them look their best.

Roadfan, are you seriously suggesting I spend over a thousand dollars in gear, invest hours and hours of time learning AVISynth and then hundreds if not thousands of hours processing and restoring VHS just on the off-chance that a broadcaster will pick it up off YT and use it?

I'm very happy for you that your video was so good they used it, and I am in awe of the experts like LS and Jagabo, Hodgey, Orsetto and many others, but the vicious criticism of those of us "enthusiastic amateurs" in the game (as we call them in my profession) who just want to get a reasonable result out of our home movies really is really disappointing and quite frankly, a bit of a turn-off.

I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly experienced and I try to steer people toward help rather than deflating them.

There's quite a peculiar culture in this field of a few self-appointed experts making decrees from upon high the right-and-wrong of every nuance of this. I'm in total agreement, for a lot of people they just simply want to view some old videos on the computer - end of.

There's shades of grey in all of this, and it's often made into a binary "I like your kit" or "I don't like your kit" followed by either heaped praise or flat rejection. There's certainly not a single thing wrong with any recommendation of top kit, far from it, but there's a constant feeling that unless you're prepared to spend a thousand dollars/pounds/euro on your kit then you're just an insult to the community. There's a whole wealth of incredible experience which I wish I had a fraction of in this community, and the views of many should be taken in to account, but maybe you've got better things to spend money on than a few hundred on a capture set-up, that's sometimes forgotten.

I'm not sure what the thing about broadcasters picking it up is trying to arrive at either, whilst that must be quite flattering I'm surprised the broadcaster didn't have any Tx masters or RoTs? Maybe they're just not maintained wherever NJRoadmaster was from? If they're personal camcorder footage, do you want them broadcast would be my initial reply?

Like I say, there's shade of grey in this, I don't watch television so I won't spend more than about £150 on one grudgingly every decade or so, some people love television and spend thousands..... We have a different use case is one analogy I can think of.