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  #21  
10-09-2021, 09:02 AM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
What is the common consensus on this refurbished, modified, TBC-1000?

https://ebay.to/3uWJCEr

Besides being (to me) overpriced.
This guy worked on his units, and when he first listed them, a couple of junk TBC-1000, untested for parts were sold for 1800 and 2100. Judging by how hard he worked on these, and compared to the prices of untested crap on Ebay, it only makes sense for him to list them for that price. Do not forget that eBay charges the seller a HUGE fee and charges you vat/tax. There was a topic on his refurbd units on videohelp. Lordsmurf gave his opinion there. if you are interested, You can even PM him there and you will probably get it for much cheaper (maybe 2k).
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  #22  
10-10-2021, 09:07 AM
The_Outsider The_Outsider is offline
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Thank you for the explanation!
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  #23  
10-10-2021, 10:43 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Do not forget that eBay charges the seller a HUGE fee
HUGE is a relative term that should be evaluated against the alternative costs and methods of selling something. The ebay seller fees vary somewhat based on what you are selling, but generally include a per-transaction amount plus a percentage of the sale. They also charge listing fees that mainly apply to high volume sellers, not individuals making occasional sales (e.g., 10's of sales per month). They offers sellers several option regarding shipping costs, including discounted rates for FedEx and UPS and for some USPS services, and local pickup. The seller can decide how to pass that cost on to the buyer; i.e., shipping included in the price, or charged based on weight/size, method used, and destination. At times it seems complex to sort out but it works.

I've sold some stuff on ebay, mostly photographic gear. I estimate that ebay gets on the order of 15% of the sale price plus any shipping bought through ebay. (Shipping large items can be crazy costly.) While I am not in love with ebay I think it nets better results for many items than I would get at yard sales, craigs list, OfferUp, or consignment shot sales. It boils down to knowing the market for what you are trying to sell.

Paying ebay a $15 fee on a $100 sale is better than getting only $60 for it by some other sales method. However, sellers may have tax considerations as well although I believe for much used gear there is unlikely any net gain over the original cost in the sale (TBCs excepted).
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  #24  
10-10-2021, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hushpower View Post
You could set up a side-hussle for your DigitalFAQ mates in Oz, onselling to us good cheap UK S-VHS VCRs!
While this was surely meant as a jest, I want to reply to it with more seriousness. It would be cost prohibitive. Even if you import decks in bulk, to attempt to save shipping funds, the likelihood of transit damage increases with the larger packages. A primary reason that I'm considering exiting deck refurb is that it takes lots of time and space, and can tie up funds for months.

If you want a good PAL deck, VCRshop.nl (Branko) is your guy. For now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
What is the common consensus on this refurbished, modified, TBC-1000?
https://ebay.to/3uWJCEr
Besides being (to me) overpriced.
BNC may be a professional connection type, but it's also very problematic. BNC headers are easier to connect, yet those same headers are often more flimsy (than s-video or composite). The playback gear recommended for consumer videotape transfer work (S-VHS VCRs, Hi8 cams, etc) are not going to have BNC out. So you're forced to use crossover cables that convert BNC to s-video. Easy enough, right. Nope! Almost all of these cables, even the overpriced ones from Extron, are thin cheap Chinese-made crap. The cables will often inject noise in the signal (RF), and often due to the cheap header connection. The refurb'er of those TBCs (ccbradley) retrofit a unit for his own BNC workflow, then refurb'd some others to sell. But I immediately saw flaws in what he did. After some discussion (both private and public), he did make some changes to his refurb method, for the better, but the BNC issue is why I do not suggest those.

Note that this thread is for items to avoid.
However, he (ccbradley) has good units. Therefore, I remain neutral (very neutral). If you want to go down the BNC route, more power to you. But I cannot in good faith stay quiet on this issue, as I know what a PITA BNC can be. A $2.5k TBC should work flawlessly, and BNC>s-video cables will be a roadblock.

Oh, and those BNC>s-video tend to have s-video cabling issues more than normal. Especially death-grip s-video headers, which can ruin gear. So you'll also have to track down some decent extenders, and that's gotten somewhat harder in recent years, too.

Can of worms.

There was no reason to replace the s-video connections with BNCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbassiouny View Post
if you are interested, You can even PM him there and you will probably get it for much cheaper (maybe 2k).
If you really want his BNC units, then bypassing eBay will indeed save you some bucks.

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Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
HUGE is a relative term that should be evaluated against the alternative costs and methods of selling something.
However, sellers may have tax considerations as well
All venues have costs. Some charge money, others tale time/work/etc.

eBay tax reporting uses a one-size-fits-all approach. It's going to get much worse in 2022, as 1099 rules changed. There's going to be a lot of shocked sellers than get 1099s for selling only $600 or more. You can no longer sell "items around the house" without being hit by tax on the full sales amount -- even if it was sold for less than it was bought for originally. "Garage sales" used to be treated differently, and you couldn't declare a loss. Now what? (Nobody seems to know.)

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/its-...ine-sales.html
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Sellin.../td-p/31694843

Anyway, to bring this back to topic, I forecast that we will see far fewer TBCs, VCRs, and others items by Q2 2023. Many people will shy away from marketplaces like eBay, for these big-ticket items, due to fees+taxes, where you may lose ~30% combined. It's going to splinter more, and the video gear landscape will get far uglier.

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  #25  
10-12-2021, 08:37 PM
Scott5591 Scott5591 is offline
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Another problem with the US NTSC players is the dynamic drum system which is only going to get worse with time, the S9800U and the S9600U both have the dynamic drum in them, im not too familiar with NTSC models but it seems like most of the prosumer models have this feature.

Personally ive never owned a DD VCR, are they really as failure prone as they are made out to be?

Does anyone here know if the HR-S8700EK is basically just a PAL clone of the S9800U minus the DD system?.

Don't seem to see it get recommended all that much on here.
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  #26  
10-13-2021, 12:01 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott5591 View Post
Another problem with the US NTSC players is the dynamic drum system which is only going to get worse with time, the S9800U and the S9600U both have the dynamic drum in them, im not too familiar with NTSC models but it seems like most of the prosumer models have this feature.

Personally ive never owned a DD VCR, are they really as failure prone as they are made out to be?

Does anyone here know if the HR-S8700EK is basically just a PAL clone of the S9800U minus the DD system?.

Don't seem to see it get recommended all that much on here.
My understanding is that it is more suited for trick-play features, it's a less-advanced version of the old Philips (and before that Ampex) dynamic drum control - I guess patents got involved as the Philips system is entirely electronic without the need for any motors, the JVC system is a bit of a fudge to get around the piezo adjustments on other systems - it did require high voltages though. V2000/SVC were providing noise-free picture search, still and reverse play in the living room in the 1970s.

On paper at least, I guess it increases inter-machine operability, for general playback though, who knows. I'm sure somebody will be along with more JVC experience. The mechanics look disaster-prone of the JVC system though.
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  #27  
10-13-2021, 12:31 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The European HR-S8xxx models roughly correspond to the US 7xxx from the same lineups. I think the 8700EK is closer to the 7800U. JVC used the same base design for both the NTSC and PAL (and SECAM + multi-system) so they feature mostly the same parts and ICs. (unlike Panasonic which had a completely different design and construction for their north american consumer vcrs in the 90s and early 2000s compared to the rest of the world). The DD system was used in both NTSC and European models, mostly confined to the top of the line SVHS models, but they made handful of standard VHS variants ones featuring it too in the earlier lineups.

The DD system in the JVC consumer/prosumer decks is only active during trick play modes, so it won't help any with inter-machine operability. I don't know when it comes to the stuff in the big bertha BR-Sxxx decks. There is a JVC technical guide covering the DD system linked in This thread.

Mitsubishi also had a handful of SVHS models that attempted something similar, though on those the heads were movable instead which seems even more disaster-prone (which I think what the "pro" version of JVCs DD system did as well but not sure). It used a set of slip rings on top of the drum to transfer the power for it.
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  #28  
10-13-2021, 10:30 PM
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Yes, the dynamic drum (DD) is a serious issue. But both NTSC and PAL have DD issues, not just NTSC.

I have multiple non-working units here. My personal 9800, that I bought new, still works, but the word "works" is defined loosely. I have a hard time getting it to start up, then accept a tape, then play that tape. Once it plays, it's fine. When it stops, repeat the process.

I have others that are more finicky. And one that doesn't cooperate at all.

Some 15/20/25 years ago, we were all led to believe that the DD had some playback improvement qualities. And I'm still not 100% certain that it doesn't (but at least 90% we were wrong, so only <10% doubt). The "proof" at the time was comparisons to non-DD units. But in hindsight, knowing what I know now, having access to documents that were not available back then, it was merely differences in the decks (mostly transports and heads). The 9800 was superior in many ways, to comparables at the time (pre-EOLs), and even without DD it would have still been better.

Buying a DD deck on eBay is like playing Russian roulette with 5 bullets in the 6-shooter. Odds of getting a good unit are near-zero in the 2020s. Ignore the nonsense descriptions of "tested" and "working" (or more recently "used in a transfer business") -- it's all BS. Don't be a sucker.

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  #29  
10-14-2021, 03:13 PM
Scott5591 Scott5591 is offline
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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The European HR-S8xxx models roughly correspond to the US 7xxx from the same lineups. I think the 8700EK is closer to the 7800U. JVC used the same base design for both the NTSC and PAL (and SECAM + multi-system) so they feature mostly the same parts and ICs. (unlike Panasonic which had a completely different design and construction for their north american consumer vcrs in the 90s and early 2000s compared to the rest of the world). The DD system was used in both NTSC and European models, mostly confined to the top of the line SVHS models, but they made handful of standard VHS variants ones featuring it too in the earlier lineups.

The DD system in the JVC consumer/prosumer decks is only active during trick play modes, so it won't help any with inter-machine operability. I don't know when it comes to the stuff in the big bertha BR-Sxxx decks. There is a JVC technical guide covering the DD system linked in This thread.

Mitsubishi also had a handful of SVHS models that attempted something similar, though on those the heads were movable instead which seems even more disaster-prone (which I think what the "pro" version of JVCs DD system did as well but not sure). It used a set of slip rings on top of the drum to transfer the power for it.
Reason i ask is looks wise the S9800U and S8700EK are virtually identical other than some extra bits of writing on the front, they are also identical in weight too.

the S8700ek was pretty much TOTL over here in England by the looks of it other than maybe a JVC HR-S9700ek, but who knows as i wasnt even in my early teens when these players were out.

There was the S8600EK which had the dynamic drum in it, ive always avoided that model due to the problems talked about on this forum.
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  #30  
10-14-2021, 05:59 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Hm, in this case it may be a bit in-between the 9800U and the 8700U feature-wise yeah. Looking at the features 8700Ex has the "video navigation" and synchro edit features which the 7800U lacks but not the dynamic drum (The 9800U has both.) . In the feature comparison in the service manual, over the 8700Ex, the 9700Ex adds the dynamic drum, "high grade audio parts" in addition to this (the MS variants features are similar) and some thing about the "tape access" feature. The 9700ek/eu seems to have been the TOTL PAL units from that lineup where it was available but I have no idea how common/rare these were, they also released new variants like yearly at this point in time.

There isn't the 4M vs 2M digital board difference like on the US models from this year (not sure if the memory differences have any impact in playback or if it's something to do with trick play.)

So for the 2000ish models the 77xxEx and 7800U may be the closest equivalents. Other than maybe the "high grade audio parts" these things won't have any impact on for playback though. The 2001 models (x85xEx , x900U etc) seem very similar.

"high grade audio parts" means a few of the coupling and decoupling capacitors on the hi-fi audio bit are replaced with slightly fancier ones. (This seems to be a feature for the 9500 and 9600 over their lower end equivalents too). The US models don't seem to have this. I don't know how noticeable the difference is in practice or if it's audiophile nitpicky grade stuff, in any case it wouldn't be all that complicated to swap the noted caps with something fancier oneself either. If you wonder which specific ones it is for this lineup, the 8700/9700MS model service manual shows the difference in the parts list. (It refers to jvc part numbers rather than capacitor brand/type so no idea of the specs/type beyond capacitance/voltage rating.)
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  #31  
10-20-2021, 07:07 PM
Scott5591 Scott5591 is offline
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Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Hm, in this case it may be a bit in-between the 9800U and the 8700U feature-wise yeah. Looking at the features 8700Ex has the "video navigation" and synchro edit features which the 7800U lacks but not the dynamic drum (The 9800U has both.) . In the feature comparison in the service manual, over the 8700Ex, the 9700Ex adds the dynamic drum, "high grade audio parts" in addition to this (the MS variants features are similar) and some thing about the "tape access" feature. The 9700ek/eu seems to have been the TOTL PAL units from that lineup where it was available but I have no idea how common/rare these were, they also released new variants like yearly at this point in time.

There isn't the 4M vs 2M digital board difference like on the US models from this year (not sure if the memory differences have any impact in playback or if it's something to do with trick play.)

So for the 2000ish models the 77xxEx and 7800U may be the closest equivalents. Other than maybe the "high grade audio parts" these things won't have any impact on for playback though. The 2001 models (x85xEx , x900U etc) seem very similar.

"high grade audio parts" means a few of the coupling and decoupling capacitors on the hi-fi audio bit are replaced with slightly fancier ones. (This seems to be a feature for the 9500 and 9600 over their lower end equivalents too). The US models don't seem to have this. I don't know how noticeable the difference is in practice or if it's audiophile nitpicky grade stuff, in any case it wouldn't be all that complicated to swap the noted caps with something fancier oneself either. If you wonder which specific ones it is for this lineup, the 8700/9700MS model service manual shows the difference in the parts list. (It refers to jvc part numbers rather than capacitor brand/type so no idea of the specs/type beyond capacitance/voltage rating.)
Here is a JVC catalogue page from 2001, S8700EK is a fairly high end model only beaten by the S9700EK which has the DD.

Would love to find one of those for 2


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  #32  
10-20-2021, 07:40 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The circa 2000 7800U was a 5800U with 2MB Digipure added in. Technically it was a downgrade as the circa 1999 7600U was a cutdown 9600U with 2MB Digipure but retained the dynamic drum and the front panel VU meters.
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  #33  
11-08-2021, 02:23 PM
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Does anyone have any experiences to share on using Facebook marketplace? My guess is that there might be less scammers on there, but I think I'd only buy something that I was within driving distance too. That way I could try it out, look at it, etc.

For eBay, there are warning signs of a sketchy listing.

Images are the same as other listings, so not the real unit, just stolen photos. Photos that are obviously from the company that made the unit. Working, but "as is," aka, no returns. Hell, most of these things are "no returns." I mean, it could actually be a great unit, but it could also be thrown around during delivery and you end up with a new item to take to the electronics recycling centre.

Also, you'll never know if the unit was garbage from the start and the seller knew it, or if it was damaged on route. There's no way to prove it either way. :/

Edit: I actually just saw this on eBay. It has a DD, so that's a concern. I'd want to see video from the thing before I'd even consider it, but I thought I'd ask if anyone has dealt with this person before?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/154667819551

Thanks!

Last edited by Darkmatter; 11-08-2021 at 02:30 PM. Reason: eBay find that is probably e-waste...
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  #34  
11-08-2021, 02:34 PM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
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@Darkmatter

Aside from the fact the FB is trash in general, their marketplace is to avoid, and it is even worse than eBay, unless you found something really cheap and worth the risk. On eBay even when you mark "no return" if things do no got as expected, it is not 100% hassle free, and seller might have to do some partial refund depending on the situation. FB marketplace not only has a lot of scammers, noobs and stolen items (specially for electronics and bikes), but it is also harder to track scammers on marketplace or flag them. It is a bit like craigslist, you get your item, you give the money, you never see him again. No self-respecting adult, who knows what a TBC actually is (and knows how to keep it in good shape), will be selling a TBC on marketplace. The only reason to give it shoot, is if you really see something so cheap that you are willing to bet the money on it. It's a gamble.
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  #35  
11-08-2021, 02:35 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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I believe that ANY buy from an on-line auction site or individual private sale contains a significant degree of risk, especially items that contain wearing/moving and aging parts. Buying from a reputable dealer with a brick-and-mortar store can be safer.

Your protection is the buyer assurance provided by the auction service but even that requires research and prompt action if what you receive is not as advertised. And if you get something document the condition as received (external and internal views of packaging if it looks suspect) and test all function you feel are important to your intended use immediately. Don't wait a few weeks. A complaint submitted the day you receive it has more face validity than one submitted after you have had it for weeks and could (at least in the mind of the seller) had a chance to abuse it.
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  #36  
11-08-2021, 04:55 PM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is offline
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All good points. I've asked the eBay seller if he can upload a video of the VCR playing a video.

I also asked him if it was originally his, or if he bought it off of someone else, and if he knew if it had been used a lot, and if it has had any refurb work done on it.

I'll have to wait and see.
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  #37  
11-08-2021, 05:15 PM
mbassiouny mbassiouny is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
All good points. I've asked the eBay seller if he can upload a video of the VCR playing a video.

Not really a criteria. Plays tapes does not mean works as intended. still, better than getting a VCR that does not even play at all

Good luck
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  #38  
11-09-2021, 06:53 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Hard core issues with any used VCR include condition of rubber and plastic parts such as belts and idlers, pads, lubricants, gears (all of which deteriorate over time) friction material, and heads which should be replaced periodically per manufacturers recommendations for best performance. Head life may be the most difficult because most VCR do not have a usage meters to list the running hours. This can be very important for any VCR that spent life in a production environment with daily use. For example Panasonic AG-1970/80 recommend every 1000 hours for the spinning drum heads, 4000 hours for fixed erase and A/C heads.. Beyond that one likely will see gradual decline in performance.

Electronic components age too, generally not as fast as rubber parts, but some have been problematic, especially electrolytic capacitors. And some just fail.

Ebay has both established reputable real business sellers, recyclers/liquidators, junk dealers, and individuals. The reseller reviews can provide a hint as the the seller, as will see what else they are selling. If a sellers other listings are mostly diapers and sweat socks, and car pine tree air fresheners don't expect much expertise in the VCR realm.
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  #39  
11-09-2021, 10:50 AM
Darkmatter Darkmatter is offline
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One question. I'm often hearing of cap problems, which I'm assuming are capacitors. Aren't they "fairly easy" to replace?

I'm sure it depends on the space given to remove it, and if you can find the right kind to replace it. I do have a small soldering iron for electronics, but I haven't had an opportunity to use it yet. I bought it when I was tired of having half my stuff die a month after the warranty is over because it was cold soldered.

I might use this "not actually working" 8mm cam as my subject of torture. You can't break what's already broken! I can totally kill it outright thought!

Edit: In regards to eBay, I'm undecided yet in regards to this one listing. Is it a risk? Absolutely! I may I end up back here with my hat in my hand. Not to beg, but to say, "you were right..." Will I then still have to buy a S-VHS VCR? Yep, quite possibly.

Last edited by Darkmatter; 11-09-2021 at 10:54 AM. Reason: I forgot things. Lots of things. All the time!
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  #40  
11-09-2021, 11:50 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatter View Post
One question. I'm often hearing of cap problems, which I'm assuming are capacitors. Aren't they "fairly easy" to replace?

I'm sure it depends on the space given to remove it, and if you can find the right kind to replace it. I do have a small soldering iron for electronics, but I haven't had an opportunity to use it yet. I bought it when I was tired of having half my stuff die a month after the warranty is over because it was cold soldered.

I might use this "not actually working" 8mm cam as my subject of torture. You can't break what's already broken! I can totally kill it outright thought!

Edit: In regards to eBay, I'm undecided yet in regards to this one listing. Is it a risk? Absolutely! I may I end up back here with my hat in my hand. Not to beg, but to say, "you were right..." Will I then still have to buy a S-VHS VCR? Yep, quite possibly.
Through-hole electrolytics are generally cheap(ish) and easy to replace. Surface mount stuff will depend on your experience but will vary from an okay job to beyond the capacity of most mortal home gamers! I'm looking at you Panasonic.

We usually recap PSUs on machines entering our business (equally for safety as much as performance) - we still have the hole in the blockwork in one room where a RIFA X-Y capacitor let-go in a rather spectacular fashion on a Philips V2000 machine a couple of years ago, and the noise and stench is enough to encourage anybody to take power capacitors seriously. There's still a dint in the wall....

Power capacitors should ideally be inspected and renewed, doubly so in 230VAC markets - our peak socket voltage in our transfer room often approaches 265VAC (RMS)/380VAC (Vp) as we're only a few metres from the distribution transformer, that's a lot of stress on an aged component that's designed to just meet 240VAC (RMS). If you're in a part of the world where the "pixie's aren't so angry" just shift the figures down to your local standards. Either way, aged components on the 'mains' side aren't ideal.

The PSU is only a piece of the puzzle, but I'd replace (or at least inspect) those as the primary items simply because a crappy picture isn't as upsetting as an exploding PSU!
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