Difference JVC S-VHS with TBC makes to my setup?

[zeeboos]

I am completely new to copying video tapes to digital.

I bought a Sony TRV 350 digital 8 camcorder. This camcorder has a built in TBC. I have used this Sony Camcorder to convert about 20 Hi eight tapes to digital. I used Video Studio Pro X7 to capture and edit the footage. I copied the raw and edited footage to a Transcend external 2 TB hard drive that spins at 5400 speed. The edited footage, I rendered in H264. I think the Sony raw footage is MPEG 2 but I do not really know. So that is about all the experience I have.

I am planning to do the same thing with about 30 VHS tapes that are 120 min in SP mode. Some are in LP but most are in SP mode. The Sony TRV 350 has a Passthrough ability where I plan on using it to convert the analog signal from the VHS player to digital. None of these tapes are SVHS. All of the VHS tapes, original sources, are from a VHS C Camcorder. So every one of these tapes are a copy and not original footage.
I used a consumer VCR I had bought at circuit city to copy from the VHS C camcorder. I do not remember the brand or anything else about the VCR or camera but I am sure it was mid range equipment at least as far as price went. They were bought about 1988. The latest tapes were shot in 1993. I then bought the Hi 8 camera that shot the tapes mentioned above.

I bought a Panasonic 7650 Pro SVHS deck. I have since learned this wasn’t the most brilliant move so Ill have to eat the $100 loss from craigslist. I also have a Panasonic regular VHS consumer player. It has component out and S video out and no TBC.. The component out does me no good because the Sony only takes in S Video. The model number to the VCR is Panasonic DMR-ES35V. It also has a built in DVD copier.

When I compared the consumer Panasonic picture to the 7650 Pro SVHS deck their really wasn’t much difference. I think the 7650 was a little sharper but it is hard to say because I could play with the hue and brightness etc on the 7650. I could do the same thing to the consumer VHS deck but only after I copy the footage, using Video Studio Pro. I didn’t do this though.

If I were to buy some of the better JVC SVHS decks suggested on this site, would I notice much difference? Is the difference like comparing MP3 at 192 KBS verses 220 KBS. Maybe an Audio Teck can tell the difference but I never hear the difference.

Do these suggested decks make a noticeable difference even on a copy of the original like all my tapes or is it just something when you put them side by side and look real, real, close that the difference appears.

I Thank anyone who post a response to this question a head of time.

Thank You Ron

[sanlyn]

Considering the poor quality of the originals, you will see little difference if any using a prosumer VCR. A good VCR doesn't "improve" a video, but it does attempt playback without adding new problems to the typical damage inflicted by lesser players and by capturing analog video to lossy codecs. Replaying the videos with a good VCR into yet another lossy encoder will look worse than the original....new compression artifacts will appear, while the original damage will still be there.

The original Panasonic AG-2750 is a pretty good, stable player but its tbc was not designed for high quality captures and is best left turned off, replaced with a better pass-thru device as documented in many forum threads, and captured to lossless media using a lossless compressor like huffyuv or Lagarith. If as you say the only difference you saw between the 2750 and your combo deck was some sharpness, then the results you'll see from a better player will make little difference to your eye. If a good player is used on bad original captures and capped to lossless media, at least it won't look worse. You could make slight visible improvement using lossless media and software post-processing. But aside from some loss of detail because of slight noise reduction in a better player, at this point you're pretty much stuck with what you have.

The prosumer VCRs available today are aging, mostly burned out by previous users. So you're taking plenty of chances finding one in good condition on auction sites or the likes of craigslist. The only way to get a unit in working condition is to find a rebuild from a shop that specializes in refurbishing premium vcr's. Of course, you'll have to pay for the skills and time involved in rebuilding old machines.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

A good VCR doesn't "improve" a video, but it does attempt playback without adding new problems to the typical damage inflicted by lesser players

Well, that's not true. A good S-VHS VCR, for example, embeds many things that does improve playback over the native ability of the VHS format. And then a quality deck uses better hardware, thus not degrading the image like a cheap consumer VCR.

I'll reply to this thread more, but wanted quickly address that first.

[sanlyn]

I agree, but the subject is playback of tapes originally dubbed to another VCR or played without decent tbc use. Bad line sync and invalid video levels on old recordings won't disappear with a new machine. If they do, it would certainly be a great boon to many who captured improperly, but I don't see how that could happen. A more solid tape mechanism, dnr, and a decent line tbc will certainly not make the result look worse and could make it look somewhat cleaner.

If the original, uncapped tapes are still available, a good JVC or Panasonic prosumer machine capturing to lossless media would of course make a vast difference.

[msgohan]

Are you saying that a line TBC doesn't help repair compounded errors from multi-gen tape? I've found that it does, provided they aren't "baked in" by using a lesser TBC during one of the earlier recording steps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeeboos

I bought a Panasonic 7650 Pro SVHS deck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

The original Panasonic AG-2750 is a pretty good, stable player but its tbc was not designed for high quality captures

I'm assuming this was just a typo and that you're talking about the same model. What's wrong with its TBC?

[sanlyn]

I mistyped the model number. Should be 7650, not 2750. Bu saw it too late to correct.

I have a rebuilt 7650 from a few years back (couldn't afford an AG-1980 at the time). It was refurbed by TGrantPhoto. Now it's 4 years aged from its rebuild, so time for a refresher and alignment check when I get the cash. It's dnr and tbc, while certainly better than nothing, isn't as hefty as an AG-1980 or prime JVC. At least the dnr isn't so aggressive as other machines that produce smearing effects on motion to some extent or other. I turned off both features for VHS capture, used a pass-thru for tbc and an AVT-8710 with good results, denoised later in Avisynth. I don't mean to downplay the critter, it does a good job with the features on or off, has very good stability even without the tbc. I intend to keep using it after a refresher at TGrant. Its major advantage IMO is that its caps don't go haywire every year or so the way they do in something like the AG-1980. I captured over 120 hours of old EP tape with it and got very good results. It went into storage when I got my AG-1980. But since then the 1980 needed two repair jobs, one of them a worn YC board. I got really tired of that.

I'd revise the "not designed for high quality captures" to read "not quite robust enough for really horrible tapes". If the 7650 mentioned is in good shape, it should give good results. I also use one of its predecessors, the non-tbc PV-S4670. Except for tbc, images from both look identical to me.

[msgohan]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I thought all of these broadcast-sized machines only did SP mode. Do you have any EP mode capture samples handy from this or your other Panasonic models? I'm still trying to find an S-VHS machine that doesn't (in my opinion) mangle EP tapes.

[sanlyn]

The big Panasonic did creditably well with EP -- a bit soft, required sharpening later. The AG-1980 was better with EP, but if they were too noisy the dnr smeared a bit. Too bad the 1980 dnr can't be turned off. For the past couple of years I've used the PV-S4670 for EP, with various pass-thru tbc. The old VCR that gave me the sharpest image from EP was my old PV-8662. But some oversharpening made it pretty noisy, and red chroma bleed was disastrous. I used to have big JVC's, but they all died pretty early and did a pretty poor job with EP. I tjhink it's been almost 3 years since I used the 7650.

If I recall the big Pannies won't record EP, but they played it. I also had some SLP. I think the Ag1980 played them OK, but it was too long ago to remember.

I don't think any machine can do much with EP. Those old tapes were made in the early 90's with a couple of cheap VCRs and a poor cable signal, so they looked pretty ugly from the start and I didn't expect much. By the time you denoise EP the results all look pretty much alike -- which ain't saying much. Fortunately I didn't record anything important on EP. I captured and archived them for nostalgia and just plain old history tapes, if nothing else. The tapes are all gone. By 2002 or so I recorded everything off cable with Panasonic and Toshiba DVD recorders. If I can find an old EP to DVD project I'll try to post something, but they've all been cleaned up. Which VCR made it, I'd just have to try and remember.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

Do you have any EP mode capture samples handy from this or your other Panasonic models? I'm still trying to find an S-VHS machine that doesn't (in my opinion) mangle EP tapes.

For what it's worth I just killed 90 minutes rushing thru 6 USB drives of old caps, but no EP's. I did come across a fragment of an unfinished EP project from 4 years ago. After a month of work the movie was broadcast on cable (it's not in print anywhere) so I grabbed my DVD recorder. The sample I'm posting here has quite a history, it was recorded 3 times in 1990 from a really bad analog cable signal, even hooked up to a cheap RadioShack cable amp to juice up the signal to get a decent cable image thru 2 cable splitters and cheap composite wire (and got some color bleed from overmodulation, thank you. I never did get rid of all of it, as you'll see).

Recorder: old RCA 1990 2-head mono, model unknown, on noisy Maxell tape (yikes!). I only wanted 10 minutes of the original movie, and lost the tape twice. When the new broadcast showed up I discarded the project. The fragment posted here had a thick layer of bristling cable transmission noise, which is doomsday for EP. I didn't even think I'd get enough image to capture. I first tried the 1980 but saw dropped frames every 5 minutes or so and some smeared motion. The capture was finally made with either the PV-S4670 or the 7650 with features turned off, and a Toshiba RD-XS34 for pass-thru, probably the PV-S4670 which I used more often, but it's been too long to remember. I was surprised as hell when I saw a fairly sharp s-video image, even with the fuzzy noise. Capped to huffyuv YUY2 with an ATI AIW 9600XT. In Avisynth I removed telecine and ran QTGMC in progressive mode with a mild temporal smoother and awarpsharp to try to to keep color from overrunning edges (well, the latter almost worked). The original plan was for non-telecine mp4 on a USB drive thru my OPPO player. The luma levels are very much as in the original but I cleared a greenish color cast in AfterEffects. I'd think a really rotten EP tape should give a better EP recording some hope.

This would never pass for a 4K original, but if nothing else I hope it demo's that some Pannies can get workable results from some godawful EP video. No matter what you do, EP always needs cleanup. I've had worse: I capped a retail SP Fantasia last year with 3 players and finally gave up on it. Even at SP a bad film transfer just looks bad, period.

PS> It seems I posted this a while back somewhere, but I never found the post.

[zeeboos]

Thanks everyone for the quick response. I was trying the 7650 and the consumer VCR more today. I did some more caparisons of various tapes between the 7650 and the consumer VHS player. I found overall the 7650 was better, sometimes noticeably better. So I figure I will use it to transfer the tapes. If I find some footage that I am really in love with I figure I will pay to have that tape professionally done.

Sanlyn, thanks for all the information and the video at the end was pretty impressive considering its extended play. I am glad to hear the 7650 is better than many players maybe not the best but good enough for what I am looking for. I read on a different forum that it was worse than a standard bottom of the line VHS player for transferring because the heads were not designed for consumer players. They said it made superb recordings if played on high end professional players but was terrible for transferring. Hence my comment in the first post “I bought a Panasonic 7650 Pro SVHS deck. I have since learned this wasn’t the most brilliant move so Ill have to eat the $100 loss from craigslist.” Sanlyn thanks for giving your own experience with the 7650.

Msgohan I found that the 7650 would not play EP tapes. Or I should say its picture was so bad that it was hopeless. I have no directions for this player and have looked on line and haven’t found any yet. So maybe there is a way to do it. I put the tape in and hit play. It works on SP tapes but not EP tapes, at least not that easily. For me this is not an issue since I have gone through my tapes more thoroughly. The EP tapes are copies from ariel TV broadcast and I really don’t care much about them. If I want to see Wally George I can see him on you tube anyway.

The Sony TVR 350 has both DNR and TBC that can be turned on and off in the menu. Do they actually do anything when passing through a signal. Or does it only effect the picture when I was using it to copy the Hi 8 tapes. If it does do anything what happens when both the 7650 and the Sony TBC are both engaged. I just assumed that the TBC in the Sony was doing nothing unless a tape is being played. I guess tomorrow I will play around and see if it does anything to the picture.

Thanks Guys Zeeboos

[Goldwingfahrer]

the TRV-350's okay. see image
I have the TRV-345e and 3 other D8 Sony

sometimes I have to access here on D8 camera.
if I want to play Video-8 or Hi8
[normal range here the Sony SVO 9700p / 9800P or the EV-S9000]

In the camera on TBC
Do I Filter with Avisynth .... then the NR filter to Off

Output from the camera but my S-Video and Audio

Only Digital 8 [SP + LP] I give my DV out

Quote:

I found that the 7650 would not play EP tapes.

Panasonic AG-7650 see screen ????

[sanlyn]

@zeeboos: your own notes on your 7650 now leave me convinced that the demo I posted had to have been run with the PV-S4670 SVHS machine, not the hefty 7650. Your comments took my poor old brain back several years. The PV-S4670 is what's often called "mainstream" in a pejorative sense, but it was Pannie's top of the line in that market, with dynamorphous metal heads, some very slight noise reduction, and little of the oversharpening or juiced up contrast and junky tracking of VCR's in the later 90's and beyond. According to a VCR historian in another forum, it was a predecessor to the AG-1970 and AG-1980.

PS: Note that the PV-S4600 series didn't have tbc's. The posted demo was captured with a Toshiba RD-XS34 as tbc pass-thru. At first I thought I used the ES15 for pass-thru but when that tape was captured I didn't own a working ES15. The Toshiba was nice, but the ES10/ES15's are more effective on tapes in bad shape -- which described most old tapes nowadays.

Likely some old units like the PV-S4600 series is why I captured EP tapes with so-called "lesser" machines or with my AG-1980. One tip I can offer if you have a big EP collection is that the lower cost (but still not cheap) AG-1970 is preferred by many users over more famous players for slow-speed tapes. The more expensive AG-1980 has more noise reduction and gave me some nice EP captures but it has to be one of the most temperamental and unpredictable creatures on earth. Its convoluted circuitry can go haywire from moment to moment and needs new caps every 18 months. When it works, it's wonderful. When it doesn't, it's off to the shop again. For that reason many users suggest a less famous (or less infamous) player that isn't quite so stellar and that can have a longer operating life than something so complicated.

I'll be running off to a storage facility to take another look at my aging 7650, unused for almost 4 years now. After quickly browsing dozens of captures last night from as far back as 2003, I've about decided to invest in a refurbed AG-1970 rather than have the 7650 reworked.

Thanks to you and msgohan for jogging my memory in this thread. I'll be rummaging in the archives for the rest of the week.

[msgohan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

PS> It seems I posted this a while back somewhere, but I never found the post.

I recall watching the sample before and reading your description, but I don't remember whether you mentioned it was EP previously. (Actually, it looks good enough that I find it hard to believe!)

In any event, thanks for posting it again with the backstory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

One tip I can offer if you have a big EP collection is that the lower cost (but still not cheap) AG-1970 is preferred by many users over more famous players for slow-speed tapes.

I find that it causes sparkling, ragged edges.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

I find that it causes sparkling, ragged edges.

I've heard that, but videos I saw a while back made by an acquaintance didn't show that. But again, those videos had been cleaned up. I do know that sharpening on the 1970 has to be brought under control on the player. Note, too, that I stated that my EP sample earlier is denoised with QTGMC and color corrected. But I have an un-denoised original, below.

This morning I managed to locate more fragments from the same project I posted earlier, hidden away in the wrong folder. The sample I'm posting as A_Liv3_AG1980_ivtc_sample.mp4 is the original cap with the AG1980. The only change was removing telecine, but no other filters. Some might prefer this version, but I had misgivings. It's softer than the PV-V4670, has more aliasing, and there's a stripe of discoloration across the top when you see the blue sky - which wasn't in the 4670+pass-thru cap, I don't know why. It could be cleaned up later, but I thought why bother? Those stripes looked worse later in the movie and appeared on the bottom as well. I think the 1980 had more trouble tracking that tape than the 4670 did. Capped from the AG-1980 to my AIW 9600XT.

Lest anyone think I'm faulting the 1980 unfairly, I have to repeat that the incoming cable signal was a nightmare with combing and wild edges not to be believed, even before the cheap VCR got to it. To show an example of how bad that signal could get at times, I'm attaching B_Liv2_8664_ES20_Mdegrain2.mp4. I saved it likely because I ivtc'd the original and ran MDegrain over it a while back, then restored telecine today for posting here. This smoothed some tape noise and edges, but little else. Played in a Panny PV-8664: nice color, but has no dnr at all and tracked with countless full-frame dropouts. Used a Panny DMR-ES20 for pass-thru at the time, which really isn't that good, and even had the Panny DVDR's noise filter turned on (another mistake, in the movie it caused clay face effects). The cut is one of several old fashioned commercial breaks I saved.

Lessons: A poor tbc and poor tracking is the pits. Further, relying on a single vcr to track anything and everything is a lost cause in many projects. And finally, some EP tapes are such crummy recordings that you're in for the time of your life getting what you want, even with good hardware and post processing.

[Goldwingfahrer]

Inaccurate translation from Post 11

For Video8 and Hi8 I need the Sony EVO 9700P / 9800P or EV-S9000
Sometimes a D8 camera gives a better picture of

D8 camera .... TBC = on ... NR Off ... but output analog audio and S-Video
[Filter with Avisynth]

Digital 8 movies directly via Firewire DV-AVI with WinDV or Edius.

[zeeboos]

Thanks for the info and the pics Goldwingfaher