Frame drops, video stuttering while capturing using built-in TBC?

[Eyal]

Hello,

I apologize if that have been asked before, I assume it's a common problem when capturing old tapes, but I made a search in the forum and didn't find a solution to my problem.

My setup is:
VCR: JVC HR-S7611EU using an S-Video output.
Capture program: VirtualDub using Lagarith Lossless codec(I've tried both VirtualDub 1.9.11 and VirtualDub2 - 32 and 64 bit).
Capture cards: VC500, AverMedia EZMaker 7, WinFast PalmTop TV.
Hardware: Windows 10, i7 CPU and recording to an SSD.

I'm trying to capture old VHS tapes that were recorded in the 90s using an hand held video camera using VirtualDub, when the VCR's built in TBC is OFF the tape occasionally loosing stability and while capturing I get a lot of frame drops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Id...ature=youtu.be

So far I'm not surprised, as I'm aware of the issues with capturing old tapes with digital devices, however, what does surprise me is that when turning the VCR's built in TBC the stability issues are gone, but the frame drops remain and the video is stuttering, it's like the TBC is just removing the frames that have the stability problems and sends nothing to the capture card, I thought that the TBC maybe won't fix all of the stability issues, but at least I'll get a smooth signal, but no.

I've tried all of the capture cards listed above and I get the same issue with all of them, note that when connecting the VCR directly into a monitor and not a capture card the video is smooth without any stability issues, TBC On or OFF.

Is this issue sounds familiar? I know the best practice is to use an external frame TBC even if the VCR already has a line one, but I really hope that's not the solution since I don't really have the budget for it, however if the solution will be to buy a different capture card(which I assume is cheaper than a frame TBC) then it might be possible.

Another question, Anyone know why when using the VC500 and the EZMaker 7, when I bring up the VCR internal menu with the blue background, the frame just freezes in VirtualDub, when I leave the menu the video resumes, that doesn't happen with the WinFast card, I can see and navigate the menu just fine with it.

I'll appreciate anyone who can help, Thanks.

[Bogilein]

Try to use a DVD-Recorder like the Panasonic ES10, ES15,EH65, EH595......as TBC replacement between your vcr and the capture card.

[keaton]

You mention capturing with Lagarith codec. Try capturing with HuffYUV instead. That is most often suggested on this forum, I believe because Lagarith is more CPU intensive and may impact the real-time performance needed for successful capture. You can convert to Lagarith after captured in HuffYUV, if that is what you ultimately want to work in. Many other threads on here about differences between them regarding storage size and Color Space differences (i.e. 4:2:2 YUY2 for HuffYUV vs 4:2:0 YV12 for Lagarith).

Another thought is to debug this by plugging into a TV that can display either composite or SVideo (either one, shouldn't make a difference for purposes of testing) to see if you are observing these same effects as when you capture. Or may, you don't even need that. If you can just watch in Virtualdub Preview mode without capturing, to see if you get these frame drops or stutters when in preview. I suspect you won't see it there, and it is an issue with the capture not keeping up with the real-time operation of capturing. If you don't see these issues when capture is off or on a TV, then it would be either the Lagarith having trouble keeping up or some other capture card driver or configuration issue perhaps. Haven't used any of those you mention, so cannot say more.

Best of luck to you.

[traal]

Do you see the same problem with professionally recorded tapes, or tapes recorded from TV?

The fact that the VCR's menu causes the picture to freeze suggests the VCR is having trouble generating a compliant analog video signal, at least through S-Video. CRT TVs tend to be more lenient than capture cards with non-compliant input signals.

[Eyal]

Thank you for everyone who replied

An update, I tried all of the capture cards again with a number of different tapes, the conclusions are that I can capture professionally recorded tapes + TV recorded tapes just fine with the 2 "Modern" cards(VC500 & EZMaker 7) but have problems with home made tapes that were recorded with an hand held camera.

In both the preview display and the captured file, when the TBC is OFF, the frame rate is smooth, but I have those tracking issues like in the sample video, when the TBC is ON, the tracking issues are gone, but the frame rate is low/fluctuating and the video is stuttering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by keaton

I believe because Lagarith is more CPU intensive and may impact the real-time performance needed for successful capture.
Another thought is to debug this by plugging into a TV

I see this issues in the preview regardless if I capture or not, it's an i7 computer and the CPU is on 3%-5% when capturing so I doubt it's the CPU especially since the frame rate is fine when I capture with the TBC Off.
I wrote in the 1st post that I connected the VCR to a monitor, I guess I wasn't clear enough about what I did, I connected the VCR into an analog composite input in my PC monitor, in the monitor the video is smooth and without any tracking issues or stuttering, regardless if the TBC is on or off, it's not surprising but at least it can indicate that the problem is with the capture cards converting the signal and not with the VCR.

My conclusion from all of this is that I do need something in between the VCR and the capture card or maybe I need a better capture card, I have an HD PVR 2, Hauppauge Colossus and PVR-150 but I only want to use them as a last resort since they are not lossless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

Try to use a DVD-Recorder like the Panasonic ES10, ES15,EH65, EH595......as TBC replacement between your vcr and the capture card.

What is my best option in the range of $100 and below with something that will clean the signal? a scaler? a new/old card? or one of the DVD recorders listed above? and if so then which one? if I remember correctly I think I've read in this forum that at least the older ones internally encoding the signal to Mpeg2 so if that's true I just better of using the HD cards I already have, so what is the best way to go regarding a relatively cheap frame TBC "replacement"? the VCR is PAL by the way.

[latreche34]

I've come across two or three tapes in the last few years that behaved just like you described and I came to the conclusion that the tapes are beyond recovering. What you can do though if your VCR has -1x reverse speed or 2x forward speed is to capture video that way and adjust speed in software and capture audio separately and mux it to the edited video. I know it's a lousy work around but better than loosing a tape.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

Try to use a DVD-Recorder like the Panasonic ES10, .....as TBC replacement between your vcr and the capture card.

Yes Eyal, try the ES10. (Specifically the ES10, not other models.)

Note that the ES10 should not be a general-use TBC(ish), it has drawbacks and byproducts, but in a situation like this the benefits can vastly outweigh the negatives.

[Eyal]

Ok I guess I'll give it a go, but wouldn't the ES10 encode the signal into Mpeg2 and then back to an analog signal even when using it as a passthrough device? if that's the case then I'll just as well use my HD cards that encodes the signal into h.264 no?

[lordsmurf]

The ES10 is solely used for passthrough, so no MPEG conversion takes place.
VCR > ES10 > capture card

No, this has nothing to do with HD, and what you propose will do nothing to solve the issue.

[Eyal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

No, this has nothing to do with HD, and what you propose will do nothing to solve the issue.

I never said it got something to do with HD, those HD cards(HD PVR 2 and Hauppauge colossus) have S-video/Composite inputs and are capable of capturing SD signals, and from my testing at least the PVR 2 don't have the issues I describe when capturing, I guess it got some stabilizing filters or something like that, the problem is that it encodes the signal by hardware into h.264 which is good enough for HD signals, but with SD it's not as good as the lossless approach so that's why I want to make sure I do everything I can to get lossless before I fall back into hardware encoding.

I'll try to get my hands on an ES10, but I just want to make sure, my VCR already have a line TBC, what I need to fix is the stuttering while the TBC is ON, you think the ES10 is suppose to help in that regard?

Thanks!

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Yes Eyal, try the ES10. (Specifically the ES10, not other models.)

I don't know about their NTSC counterparts, but for PAL at least, the other mentioned models (EH) will in most cases do fine as well if you can't find an ES10.

Quote:

I'll try to get my hands on an ES10, but I just want to make sure, my VCR already have a line TBC, what I need to fix is the stuttering while the TBC is ON, you think the ES10 is suppose to help in that regard?

If it doesn't stutter on the TV and HD-PVR with the TBC on it likely won't with the ES10 either. The JVC TBC can get jittery on some tapes (image "hopping"), but this was the case here would likely happen on the TV as well. In those cases use the ES10 with the TBC on the VCR turned off.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyal

I I just want to make sure, my VCR already have a line TBC, what I need to fix is the stuttering while the TBC is ON

Disable the VCR TBC, let the ES10 line TBC(ish) take over instead. You cannot chain line TBCs, one must own the signal, and the other must be off. (Note that this is different from a line>frame workflow, as each does a different task. Not so when both are line, or both are frame.)