Using Panasonic ES10/15 as TBC with Roxio Easy DVD?

[AussieVHSFan]

Hello,

This is my first post, and I would like to know if anyone has ever tried to use the Panasonic DMR-ES10/15 as a TBC with a cheap capture card like the Easycap, Roxio Easy VHS to DVD 3 or Elgato to avoid dropped frames?

When I am transferring tapes to digital in Roxio, when the tape is being played in the window but the Roxio software isn't recording, the audio goes silent every 45 seconds and the silence lasts for 3 seconds.

When the Roxio software is recording, the 3 seconds of silence is skipped entirely, resulting in frames being lost in recording.

Would a Panasonic ES10/15 connected in between the player and capture card be able to fix this problem? Because I really don't want to spend over 1000 dollars on a proper TBC and then find out that it doesn't work as expected!

My transfer configuration:
VCR/Video Player: LG RC689D VCR/DVD Combo Unit
Capture Card/Software: Roxio Easy VHS to DVD 3 Plus
Computer: HP Laptop with Windows 10, Intel Celeron CPU at 1.10GHz, 4GB RAM, 64GB free space.

[lordsmurf]

The Easycap is a $2 piece of garbage from China. You probably paid anywhere from $30 to $100 for this $2-to-make card. It was sold on Wish as recently as 2020, for $5 shipped from China. Everything about the card sucks, from dropped frames to image quality. It's atrocious.

The ES10/15 is NOT a frame TBC, but a DVD recorder that included a strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, and works on passthrough. It's not a "TBC replacement", and it has quality hits. However, it's better than nothing, especially when using a low-end consumer VHS VCR. The main benefit of the ES10/15 has always been the anti-tearing. Attempting to use it as a TBC will be very hit-or-miss, and heavily depends on the sources. Sometimes mostly hits, sometimes lots of misses.

ES10/15 with a better capture cards may remove dropped frames, but it again depends on the sources.

PAL vs. NTSC also has some affect here, along with recording modes.

Not the best VCR, but it will limp along. Probably.

Computer is fine. But noting Win10 is a lousy capture OS, it fights the process most times. Win10 is an internet OS, not a video OS.

Roxio software is garbage. Use VirtualDub.

An actual TBC, with a quality card and VCR, recommended software, will 100% prevent dropped frames. That and many other issues. It's not a risk, but a guarantee. When you pay for quality hardware, that's what you can expect from it. As I often write, how much is your time and sanity worth? I'd rather pay to use the gear, as opposed to lowball budget and spend all my time trying to make it simply work.

[crissrudd4554]

Speaking as someone who has used both the ES10 and ES15 as well as the JVC MS10 I’ve noticed occasional frame jumps on all these machines. Yes very infrequent and most people unless you’re a twisted perfectionist like me won’t notice them but nonetheless they are there. And keep in mind I’ve noticed them even when just using the units for what they are. No capture cards or computers involved. So yes it’s kinda you gotta make the call sorta situation. If you don’t mind maybe 2 or 3 subtle jumps in the recording that might not be easily detectable anyways then yes these can be an appropriate TBC substitute. But if you want the full deal you’ll want a good VCR with a nice built in TBC and if you can get a good one a nice external TBC for the chain. Just my two cents.

[hodgey]

Using a JVC SVHS with TBC + a datavideo/cypress TBC can also result in frame drops/jumps/inserts so yeah it's never 100% guaranteed. Even if the output is perfectly fine there will be inevitably be some drift between the clock timing of the tbc and vcr (unless tthey're genlocked together but that's only a thing with like broadcast vcrs/tbcs which can have their own problems.)

The panasonic dvdrs can handle quite a lot without drops though, the JVCs (or at least the DR-MH300 and DR-MX1 I got) have some limited line tb function (though much more limited than panasonic and NEC-based pioneer/sony vcrs) but they seem very prone to drops/inserts so don't work all that well for straight VCR input.

As for OP, a ES10/15 + average capture card is generally fine as a budget setup, but it wouldn't do anything with that specific VCR. The LG VCR/DVD-recorder combos (I have that specific model even so can confirm) pipe everything through the internal digitizer so what comes out of them is already a stable signal with any issues the video decoder IC in them had baked in. As such a ES10 or similar won't really be able to do anything with it. They use a Philips/NXP chip related to the ones in the datavideo/cypress TBCs but newer, so they are somewhat robust to bad video and can stabilize minor horizontal jitter but not much beyond that. Don't remember to what extent it drops/inserts frames on issues, though don't think they buffer as much as the TBCs.

[lollo2]

Quote:

Using a JVC SVHS with TBC + a datavideo/cypress TBC can also result in frame drops/jumps/inserts

In my experience, capturing with a JVC HR-S9500MS with lineTBC and no frameTBC, I was able to compare analog captures of more than 50 videos (with a duration of >1 hour) versus the same program dumped with a dvb-s card few years later. I counted exactly the same number of frames, except for a very rare inserted frame in the analog capture.
I think the more important fact is, once again, the condition of the tape. On the other hand, the VCR did an excellent job, but I must also add that the same machine was used for recording and for playback to capture, which may have an influence in the quality of the capture itself.
Just my 2 cents

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Speaking as someone who has used both the ES10 and ES15 as well as the JVC MS10 I’ve noticed occasional frame jumps on all these machines. Yes very infrequent and most people unless you’re a twisted perfectionist like me won’t notice them but nonetheless they are there. And keep in mind I’ve noticed them even when just using the units for what they are. No capture cards or computers involved. So yes it’s kinda you gotta make the call sorta situation. If you don’t mind maybe 2 or 3 subtle jumps in the recording that might not be easily detectable anyways then yes these can be an appropriate TBC substitute. But if you want the full deal you’ll want a good VCR with a nice built in TBC and if you can get a good one a nice external TBC for the chain. Just my two cents.

This is a known consequence (even if some ES10/15 type users deny it), and is why ES10/15 has never been a "TBC replacement". It excels at tearing removal, but fall flat even with just the line TBC. As I often state, it's just a DVD recorder, not a TBC. If has multiple quality reducing issues. It's best used when the net outcome is better video. But if you insist on budget, it can be minimally workable.

While actual frame TBCs are made for cleaning the signal, cleaning the image can be a byproduct. DataVideo TBCs specifically have good anti-jumping affects, and that include the weaker DVK units. Hence why ES10/15+DVK is what I refer to as a full TBC(ish) setup. Maybe times, it can be 99% as effective for the TBC'ing, but again your get ES10/15 image negatives.

Line TBC can also have frame-stability byproduct, which is why ES10/15, with the non-TBC frame sync, can suffice at times. Just not all the time, sometimes not even half the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodgey

Using a JVC SVHS with TBC + a datavideo/cypress TBC can also result in frame drops/jumps/inserts

Well, that's not really a fair comparison. With ES10/15, it's expected, known, regular basis. But the JVC decks, the DataVideo/Cypress, it's far less common to the point of being rare (and also heavily source caused/dependent).

Quote:

but they seem very prone to drops/inserts so don't work all that well for straight VCR input.

Yes, the Kryptonite to otherwise near-perfect DVD recorders: no TBC function of any kind, and even the frame sync is somewhat weak.

Quote:

The LG VCR/DVD-recorder combos (I have that specific model even so can confirm) pipe everything through the internal digitizer so what comes out of them is already a stable signal with any issues the video decoder IC in them had baked in.

Like most combos, does it also internally route all through composite? Ugly stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lollo2

In my experience, capturing with a JVC HR-S9500MS with lineTBC ... I was able to compare analog captures of more than 50 videos (with a duration of >1 hour) versus the same program dumped with a dvb-s card few years later. I counted exactly the same number of frames, except for a very rare inserted frame in the analog capture.
I think the more important fact is, once again, the condition of the tape. On the other hand, the VCR did an excellent job, but I must also add that the same machine was used for recording and for playback to capture, which may have an influence in the quality of the capture itself.
Just my 2 cents

Yep.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Like most combos, does it also internally route all through composite? Ugly stuff.

Yeah only combos I'm aware of that output S-Video from the VHS part are the various JVC SVHS combos. (Presumably also the Panasonic SVHS VHS/DVD combos and Sony SVHS/DVCAM combos but those were only sold in japan so hard to find info on.)