Correct settings for highest quality TMPGEnc export?

[efc1978]

Hello,
I'm using TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5.0.6.38.
I have a lot of audio editing experience, but don't know much about video quality settings, I'm replacing the audio of a video with new audio which I've speed corrected, and made various other edits, and have it perfectly in sync with the old audio it's replacing...
I want to export the new video/audio at the highest possible quality (as close to lossless as possible). PAL format.
Is there a lossless way of doing this with this programme?

Ideally I would like to make a real "DVD" (PAL) which most DVD players should play, but not sure of the output which would do that, if possible please tell me which settings...
But for now I have found that the MP4 export codec works with the DVRecorder I'll be playing the exported files with, once I then put it in an .mkv container, but I don't know which settings to use for highest possible quality, could I please get some advice, below I have basically listed every setting I can possible change, could someone with this video editing knowledge please tell me which settings to use for best possible quality? Thank-You in advance...

PLEASE NOTE: My preference is to make a real "DVD" which most DVD players will play, but if it can't be done I know my DVRecorder will play MPEG4 off a USB.

Below are the settings for MP4 export, which I know will play on my DVRecorder off a USB, but if someone could point towards a way to make a "real DVD" with the best possible quality I think that would be better!

For the MPEG4 export I am loading the original video .VOB's (MPEG-1/2 with audio MP3). PAL format.
In TMPGEnc I'm converting to MP4, as I know this codec plays on my DVRecorder in an .mkv container, but as I said I'm really wanting to make a proper "DVD" as close to lossless as possible..., lossless is what I'm really wanting! Any advice on what's best for me to do would be greatly appreciated!

So I load in the the first VOB and in audio I put in my new audio source, it then says "The source has been changed. Cut-edit and keyframe lists will be reset. Do you wish to proceed? YES / NO. If you choose no the audio source is changed without resetting the cut-edit and keyframe list".
DO I CHOOSE YES OR NO? I HAVE SELECTED NO FOR THE FIRST SONG I HAVE EDITED AND DIDN'T NOTICE ANYTHING WRONG, IT LOOKS PERFECTLY IN SYNC!

Then I'm unsure about a few of the settings?
For ASPECT RATIO I'm not sure whether to choose "Pixel 12:11 (PAL 4:3)" or "Display 4:3", but I left it at the first.
Then I choose to use MPEG-4 AVC output, video encoder x264.
Profile and Level are set to High @ Automatic level 3 (but I can select up to level 5.1 (I don't know if this is for quality?).
Next is 720x576, pixel 12:11, 25fps.
The next stuff I'm really unsure of though I know it's very simple if you know about video!
Rate Control Mode is set to CBR Constant Bitrate, but I can also choose VBR Average Bitrate, or VBR Constant Quality.
Then in Rate Control Mode I have to put Average Bitrate and Maximum Bitrate, and select 1 pass or 2 pass. (Not sure what to put here), Constant Bitrate has Average and Maximum both set to 4000kbs and 1 pass which I can't change, then there's VBR Average Bitrate which you can enter whatever you choose, or you can choose VBR Constant quality which has Maximum Bitrate set to 8000 and a Quality option set to 50 which can be changed to 100.
VBV Buffer size is 0 Automatic. Do I change this?
Entropy coding is CABAC but I can choose CAVLC.
Display Mode is Interlace but I can choose Progressive or Progressive 2:2 pulldown.
Field order is Top Field First but I can choose Bottom Field First.
Performance is set to Normal but I can choose from Fastest to Very Slow - I think I choose very slow for best quality?
THAT'S IT FOR VIDEO.....
For audio it's set to MPEG-4 AAC Low Complexity but I can choose AAC Main Profile.
I have already made the audio sample rate change from 44.1 to 48000.
I'll leave as stereo and put the bitrate as high as possible!
FINALLY IS GOP STRUCTURE (I have no idea what this means!?)
Maximum Number of Reference Frames is set to 3 but can be changed up to 16.
Normal Number of Frames in a GOP is set to 250 but can go up to 9999.
Minimum Number of Frames in a GOP is 0 Automatic but can go up to 9999.
Number of B pictures in a GOP is set to 3 but can go up to 16.
Detect Scene Change is ticked, but can be unticked, when ticked the sensitivity is 40 but can go up to 100.

All that's left is to encode.........

This project is using an extremely rare video, so once I'm done syncing the new audio to it I want the end result to be as lossless and high quality as possible!

Thanks in advance.

-- merged --

Have this solved already!
I used PGCDemux and MuxMan to add in my new WAV PCM audio to the original .VOB files losslessy!
My post can be deleted if admin would like!
Thanks

[sanlyn]

Considering that you managed to get a playable video without knowing what a "DVD" is, you did well. It might play from a USB stick on (some) players, but it's not a DVD. I'm not quite sure what your result is, but if you had used TMPGEnc Smart Renderer to add the audio track without re-encoding the original video, you could have made at least a token gesture toward preserving some semblance of original quality, such as it may have been. OTH, what you describe as your source wasn't DVD -compliant anyway (mp3 is not acceptable for DVD, even if your source was encoded as MPEG).

DVD is not mkv, mp4, or anything else. It's MPEG. Period. DVD can't be anything else. DVD audio is Dolby AC3 or lossless PCM. It can't be anything else (well, it can be mp2, but that's pretty old hat and sounds really crappy). What you describe in TMPGenc are mostly settings that have nothing to do with DVD (which is never h264. Never). What you seem to have been involved in with TMPGenc is what would have been something akin to an mp4 or mkv encoded at huge GOP sizes, which could choke some players that try to handle it, and cannot be played on a DVD machine from disc. If you don't know what a GOP is, you might want to do some reading on the basics of video encoding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures

The tables linked below describe h264 and MPEG4 encoding for compliant BluRay/AVCHD. That'[s probably not what you want (it ain't DVD), but it's a little closer to what you seem to have achieved. The tables might give you some idea of what's behind a few of the basic parameters you mentioned. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

[efc1978]

Hi,
I think you have misunderstood a little, probably because of my long post!, it's probably all a bit sloppy!
Actually I do very well know what a DVD is, and I do know .mkv and MP4 etc. are not anything to do with DVD..., I just don't have much knowledge on what are the best quality encoding settings.
I know the settings I listed were for MP4 export (which is not DVD), as I explained in my first post (though maybe I didn't explain it clear enough), what I really wanted to export as was a real DVD, however if that was not possible I said I know that my DVRecorder would instead play MP4 in an .mkv container! (and I then gave the list of setting for MP4 output (which as I said I know is not DVD).

My original source is indeed DVD, the .VOB's I'm wanting to add new audio to are ripped straight off a DVD using DVD Shrink (with no compression = lossless).

OK so as I explained in my second post, I have this all sorted now anyway, as I found that I could separate the original video and audio from the original DVD .VOB''s using PGCDemux, I then added into the original video my new audio using MuxMan, so I've actually now added my new audio keeping the original video lossless!, which is exactly what I was looking for!

PS - mmm I think an .mkv programme did say my original .VOB's were MPEG 1/2 with MP3 audio (unless I'm mistaken), but it had to be a real DVD, as I ripped it off a real DVD using DVD Shrink (which only rips real DVD's).

Thanks

-- merged --

OK I've checked the .VOB off the DVD disc which I ripped with DVD Shrink, which is a DVD compiled and authored by DVD Shrink using 2 other DVD's!, and it indeed says when loaded into "mkvmerge GUI 7.9.0" that the video is MPEG 1/2 ID 0 type video and the audio is MP3 ID 1 type audio..., I suspect this is what it will be converted to when it is output as an .mkv, which I mistakenly wrote in my original post was the contents of the original .VOB.

[sanlyn]

The Source would be MPEG2 or MPEG1, not both. Mp3 audio is heavily compressed and isn't valid for either, so if your source is a "real" DVD it's non-standard.
PAL/NTSC DVD: http://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
PAL/NTYSC VCD: http://www.videohelp.com/vcd#tech

The maximum GOP size for DVD is 18 frames. For BluRay/AVCHD it's either 1 or 2 second GOP's, in some cases 1 sec. Audio for both is 48KHz. Mp3 can't be used. So I don't understand what you mean by the source being "real". Is that source an internet download or home made job? For h264 mkv/mp4, large GOPs generally give less quality, especially for motion, and are almost impossible to edit later without considerable damage.

The output bitrate depends on the source and the quality you want. 5000 to 7000 VBR are normal for quality DVD, but BluRay/AVBCHD can accept higher bitrates. Without a short sample of your original, no one can give more exact answers. mkv and mp4 aren't valid for any of those standard authored formats and are usually used for web display or PC-only playback. Some external players can play mkv/mp4, depending on the format and encoding, and some can't.

[efc1978]

Hi,

Seems I'm being misunderstood again, as I already have said, it seems that when I loaded my .VOB into mkvmerge GUI 7.9.0 and it said video : MPEG 1/2 and audio : MP3, it seems that is referring to what will be the OUTPUT .mkv.

I have actually put my original .VOB through PGCMux to separate the video from audio and the video is .m2v = MPEG2 video which is real DVD, and the audio is .mpa which I believe is the same as .mp2 which is MPEG1 layer 2, which is indeed audio from a real DVD.

Thanks

[sanlyn]

That makes more sense. PAL DVD can use mp2 audio. For quality audio, it's not a good choice. But neither is mp3. In any case, glad you have it working -- even if I'm not quite sure what you have for output.

[efc1978]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

That makes more sense. PAL DVD can use mp2 audio. For quality audio, it's not a good choice. But neither is mp3. In any case, glad you have it working -- even if I'm not quite sure what you have for output.

I don't quite understand how .mpa is the same as .mp2, as they're both different file names/extensions, but I have been told that they are the same???
My output is simply the original video kept lossless combined with my new PCM WAV audio, as I took my original .VOB's and split video from audio with PGCMux, then using MuxMan combined the original video with my new PCM WAV audio, so my final result is lossless video!, which is what I was wanting all along
Thanks

[sanlyn]

That makes more sense. PAL DVD can use mp2 audio. For quality audio, it's not a good choice. But neither is mp3. In any case, glad you have it working -- even if I'm not quite sure what you have for output.


Should you decide to get into TMPGenc's x264 encoder, it's a pretty decent encoder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by efc1978

For ASPECT RATIO I'm not sure whether to choose "Pixel 12:11 (PAL 4:3)" or "Display 4:3", but I left it at the first.
Then I choose to use MPEG-4 AVC output, video encoder x264.
Profile and Level are set to High @ Automatic level 3 (but I can select up to level 5.1 (I don't know if this is for quality?).
Next is 720x576, pixel 12:11, 25fps.
The next stuff I'm really unsure of though I know it's very simple if you know about video!
Rate Control Mode is set to CBR Constant Bitrate, but I can also choose VBR Average Bitrate, or VBR Constant Quality.
Then in Rate Control Mode I have to put Average Bitrate and Maximum Bitrate, and select 1 pass or 2 pass. (Not sure what to put here), Constant Bitrate has Average and Maximum both set to 4000kbs and 1 pass which I can't change, then there's VBR Average Bitrate which you can enter whatever you choose, or you can choose VBR Constant quality which has Maximum Bitrate set to 8000 and a Quality option set to 50 which can be changed to 100.
VBV Buffer size is 0 Automatic. Do I change this?
Entropy coding is CABAC but I can choose CAVLC.
Display Mode is Interlace but I can choose Progressive or Progressive 2:2 pulldown.
Field order is Top Field First but I can choose Bottom Field First.
Performance is set to Normal but I can choose from Fastest to Very Slow - I think I choose very slow for best quality?
THAT'S IT FOR VIDEO.....
For audio it's set to MPEG-4 AAC Low Complexity but I can choose AAC Main Profile.
I have already made the audio sample rate change from 44.1 to 48000.
I'll leave as stereo and put the bitrate as high as possible!
FINALLY IS GOP STRUCTURE (I have no idea what this means!?)
Maximum Number of Reference Frames is set to 3 but can be changed up to 16.
Normal Number of Frames in a GOP is set to 250 but can go up to 9999.
Minimum Number of Frames in a GOP is 0 Automatic but can go up to 9999.
Number of B pictures in a GOP is set to 3 but can go up to 16.
Detect Scene Change is ticked, but can be unticked, when ticked the sensitivity is 40 but can go up to 100.

Aspect Ratio: If your video is 4:3 PAL, check the "Properties" box for the input source. It should be "Pixel 12:11 (PAL 4:3)", which is the pixel aspect ratio(PAR) for 4:3 PAL DVD. The output can be "Display 4:3").

Output level: Use Level 4 or 4.1. Don't use anything higher. Many players can't handle output level 5.1 encodes.

Rate control mode: you get better motion handling, more efficient encoding, and better playback performance in gradient areas using VBR Average, 2-pass, not CBR. CBR is usually for anime. 4000- kbps is almost always the app's default. For good quality PAL I'd use 5500 or 6000. Depends on the video. If it's noisy or has a lot of movement/detail, you need a high bitrate. VBR will automatically save data bits on scenes that don't require it.

Buffer size: Because this really depends on many factors, take the Auto default.

Entropy encoding: CABAC. Only.

Display mode: If your video is interlaced, use interlaced. If it's progressive, use progressive. Don't change display modes from the original source. 2:2 pulldown isn't used with PAL. It's used for film-source material. But you gave no info about your source frame structure, so no one knows whether it's interlaced, progressive, or what.

Field order: Don't change field order from the source. PAL DVD is usually Top Field First, unless the DVD's maker was clueless or the original was made from DV source. DV is almost always Bottom Field First. Use the same field order as the original, or it'll be pretty sloppy playback. Don't take TMPGEnc's word for the input field order: it's often a guess.

Performance: Very slow, for VBR encoding. Slower, but better. Faster encoding is less accurate and often does a lot of unnecessary filtering.

Audio: MPEG-4 AAC Low Complexity

GOP structure: The better GOP size for PAL h264 is 25 frames, max 25. You can use 50. Don't go higher, unless you're trying to save encoding space for the internet. Max reference frames: for GOP of 25, use the default 3. The default is usually correct. Minimum # of GOP frames = Auto. B pictures for 25 GOP, take the default. Enable scene change detection and take the default 40. You can set it higher if you want, but it helps only if you have some really fast and furious scene changes in the video.

If you really want to get into the x264 encoder, take a look at "Advanced MPEG output" settings. I'd advise to leave them as they are, unless you have special needs or know exactly what you're doing.

[efc1978]

Thank you very much for explaining all of that!, I may use it some time when I'm making a video to play from my USB on my DVRecorder, but as for my current project as you now know I have found out I can actually keep the VOB's with lossless video!
I just don't understand why PGCDemux splits out the audio as 1536kbps .mpa, but apparently .mpa is the same as .mp2, which confuses me because why the 2 different file extension names if they're the same thing?

[lordsmurf]

.mpa/.mp2 is the same thing. MPEG Layer II audio. (And it sounds fine, with 256k+ bitrates.)

You're using an authoring program in "all in one" mode (encoding, not just authoring), and quality will never be ideal. Authoring/all-in-one apps lack the options you find elsewhere. Even a freeware like Avidemux tends to be better for encoding MPEG-2.

"MP4"/"MPEG-4" is not a format, but a wrapper. It can hold anything from H.264 to Xvid. Your player may or may not support the wrapper with all codecs, resolutions, bitrates, etc.

CBR isn't for anime. It's just quicker, an older method, and it looks crappier.

VBV is almost always fine at defaults.

Everything tends to be TFF, aside from DV. It's only really DV that's BFF. But you don't want to encode anything other than MPEG-2 as interlaced. Never encode interlaced H.264, as it looks like crap, and confuses devices. H.264 must be deinterlaced. Only when you have specialized hardware (like TV stations) does it look okay. But even then, it can have issues.

[efc1978]

Hi,
I've split my DVD .VOB's using PGCMux to separate the audio and video, the split out video is .m2v, and the audio .mpa.
I have now finished editing the 'new' audio I plan to use, when I first edited the audio I had it as WAV PCM 16bit 48000 1536kbps (as I wanted to keep everything lossless), and when I tried to add the new audio back to my video by combining it with the .m2v file in Muxman I got the error message : "multiplex operation failed - probably caused by excessive bitrate", so I then converted those WAV's in Audacity to 386kbps .MP2's and am still getting the same error...
What could be the problem and how do I fix it?
Thanks in advance for any help!

[efc1978]

Quote:

Originally Posted by efc1978

Hi,
I've split my DVD .VOB's using PGCMux to separate the audio and video, the split out video is .m2v, and the audio .mpa.
I have now finished editing the 'new' audio I plan to use, when I first edited the audio I had it as WAV PCM 16bit 48000 1536kbps (as I wanted to keep everything lossless), and when I tried to add the new audio back to my video by combining it with the .m2v file in Muxman I got the error message : "multiplex operation failed - probably caused by excessive bitrate", so I then converted those WAV's in Audacity to 386kbps .MP2's and am still getting the same error...
What could be the problem and how do I fix it?
Thanks in advance for any help!

FIXED... All good...