Archiving hundreds of home videos: advice?

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Hi all.

I've read over several threads here and there looks to be a plethora of great info. I just wanted to get some specific input about my needs before I pull the trigger on spending more money. My goal is to archive a large collection of home movies, preserving or improving the quality of them if possible. My budget is limited, but if there is a drastic improvement in quality by spending a little more I would like to know that.

First, here is a description of the media I wish to archive:

~200 8mm tapes spanning the years 1987-2003. It is possible some of these are Hi8/Digital8, but not positive.

- An undetermined number of VHS tapes spanning the years 1985-1987

I have a Sony Digital8 Camcorder, model DCR-TRV740. I had been using the Firewire port on the camcorder to capture to uncompressed AVI files on the computer. This was working great (~20 tapes or so captured) until the firewire port on my camcorder stopped working. I then puchased the Elgato capture card on amazon: http://amzn.com/B0029U2YSA.

So far I have captured 2 tapes with the Elgato. In both cases, huge chunks of the video were missing from the resulting captured video. A second attempt to capture the tape resulted in the full video being captured. I do not have an external TBC (from reading these threads, perhaps this was the only issue).

I just built a new computer for gaming and video editing (part of why my additional budget is limited). Here it is: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/WmrfMp (I also added a Firewire PCI-E card before the firewire on my camcorder stopped working).

My question for all of you is simply: what capturing setup should I use to archive all these home videos?

From my browsing of the other threads on here it sounds like I will definitely need an external TBC. I am looking at the AVT-8710 TBC: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Time_Base.html

Beyond that, I'm thinking I should return the Elgato capture device and get something that will allow me to capture uncompressed files again, probably using VirtualDub. Is there a capture card that I can get for my new PC setup that would give me a good capture workflow? Once I finish capturing the 8mm tapes, I'll probably have to check out the VCR buyer's guide on here and grab one of those as well.

I've seen a lot of comments that the best capture setup is actually an old Windows XP rig with an ATI AIW card. I would basically have to hunt down old parts and build that computer from scratch, which would probably get pretty pricey. Is there a capture card I can get for my new PC that would yield equal/similar results? If I were to bite the bullet and build a WinXP capture machine (assuming I can find the parts), what benefits does that give me?

Thanks for reading this, and I appreciate any advice at all that anyone is willing to provide. I've been hosting the videos I've captured so far on a Plex media server, and my family is already cherishing the few videos I've gotten so far.

[msgohan]

The captures you did over Firewire were not uncompressed; Firewire from your camcorder is DV-compressed.

The Elgato can do lossless capture in VirtualDub.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

I tried using Elgato with VirtualDub. VD recognizes the elgato device, but I couldn't successfully capture anything.

Assuming I successfully troubleshoot that issue and actually get the Elgato to capture w/VirtualDub, do I just need to buy TBC and then I'm good to go? Or should I still replace Elgato with something else?

Thanks

UPDATE: Ok I figured out that it was selecting Elgato as the audio device that was keeping VirtualDub from capturing. So now I can capture using the Elgato with VirtualDub, and I was able to get the Huffy codec installed on my Win10 x64 machine.

So, should I stick with this setup and add a TBC and I'm good to go? What about a sound card? the onboard audio on my mobo is supposedly pretty good, but idk any better. If I will get better results using some other device/card to capture than the Elgato, I can return it.

Also, I've noticed that the lighting on a lot of these videos is pretty dark. Is this something that can be fixed in a way that still looks good? If so, would that need to be a capture setting, or could it be done in post-processing after capturing a lossless file?

[latreche34]

Your camcorder is built in line TBC and DNR noise reduction system and that's all what you need, External TBC's are expensive and most likely it will add nothing to your video, I have the exact same model that you are looking for and didn't fix a tape that has frame jump.
You don't need camcorder firewire port just use a USB capture device like the one you already have.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

External TBC's ... most likely it will add nothing to your video, I have the exact same model that you are looking for and didn't fix a tape that has frame jump.

For DV or D8, correct.

The digital origin signal (be it native DV/D8, or converted analog) can be modulated out over analog, but that analog signal is usually clean. Sometimes digital vs. analog out isn't as big a difference as some would think. I often transfer DV over s-video. The original content isn't really 720x480, as consumer cameras couldn't resolve that well. And they were noisy, so any added analog noise won''t be noticed.

(For analog, not correct. Dropped frames are still an issue. That's what the external TBC is for. Remember: Internal to clean the picture, external to clean the signal.)

The bigger concern is converting analog to DV with a camera. That's rarely any good.

And TBCs in cameras often are not true TBCs. So you actually drop frames in the camera, before the modulated analog is output again. Or the digital DV file is transferred over Firewire. Remember that playback and analog capture is done as one step with DV/D8 cameras. That's rarely a good thing.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

For DV or D8, correct.

The digital origin signal (be it native DV/D8, or converted analog) can be modulated out over analog, but that analog signal is usually clean. Sometimes digital vs. analog out isn't as big a difference as some would think. I often transfer DV over s-video. The original content isn't really 720x480, as consumer cameras couldn't resolve that well. And they were noisy, so any added analog noise won''t be noticed.

(For analog, not correct. Dropped frames are still an issue. That's what the external TBC is for. Remember: Internal to clean the picture, external to clean the signal.)

The bigger concern is converting analog to DV with a camera. That's rarely any good.

And TBCs in cameras often are not true TBCs. So you actually drop frames in the camera, before the modulated analog is output again. Or the digital DV file is transferred over Firewire. Remember that playback and analog capture is done as one step with DV/D8 cameras. That's rarely a good thing.

Ok so just so I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that my camera as the video source is not great? Or was that simply a confirmation that I do want to get the external TBC? I am definitely getting loads of dropped frames in VirtualDub during my captures right now. Thanks for the replies.

[lordsmurf]

I'm saying the cameras is the weak link right now. I'd hate to use one to capture 10 tapes, much less 100 or more.

I'm also saying that TBC is usually not needed between a DV camera and computer, be it via analog capture or via firewire transfer. The digital or analog output signal is DV, not true analog. It was not analog the moment that the camera touched it.

Then again, all models differ some. There is a potential that this camera is playing Video8 and Hi8 without the DV conversion step. And that would be preferable. And in that case, a TBC would solve your problem. Dropped frames are most often caused by lack of TBC on a bad video signal.

However, bad VirtualDub settings, or capturing with sound preview, is another. So let's confirm your VirtualDub settings.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm saying the cameras is the weak link right now. I'd hate to use one to capture 10 tapes, much less 100 or more.

I'm also saying that TBC is usually not needed between a DV camera and computer, be it via analog capture or via firewire transfer. The digital or analog output signal is DV, not true analog. It was not analog the moment that the camera touched it.

Then again, all models differ some. There is a potential that this camera is playing Video8 and Hi8 without the DV conversion step. And that would be preferable. And in that case, a TBC would solve your problem. Dropped frames are most often caused by lack of TBC on a bad video signal.

However, bad VirtualDub settings, or capturing with sound preview, is another. So let's confirm your VirtualDub settings.

Hm, interesting. So when you say the camera is the weak link, is it weak enough to make a noticeable difference in quality? If so, what realistic alternative is there for capturing these 8mm tapes? I've seen 8mm to VHS adapters that would let me play them via VCR. Those seem terrible to me (just a gut feeling), but would that be preferable? I don't have a VCR yet but I'd get a good quality one.

Regarding VirtualDub settings, I did have audio on during capture so maybe that's my problem. I know there are settings guides on here so I will double check the recommendations vs what I have (thought I'd done that) and report back here with specifics if it's still dropping frames. Thanks!

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_in_bull_city

Hm, interesting. So when you say the camera is the weak link, is it weak enough to make a noticeable difference in quality? If so, what realistic alternative is there for capturing these 8mm tapes? I've seen 8mm to VHS adapters that would let me play them via VCR. Those seem terrible to me (just a gut feeling), but would that be preferable? I don't have a VCR yet but I'd get a good quality one.

Regarding VirtualDub settings, I did have audio on during capture so maybe that's my problem. I know there are settings guides on here so I will double check the recommendations vs what I have (thought I'd done that) and report back here with specifics if it's still dropping frames. Thanks!

I think Lordsmurf means if your camera dropping frames then you either get another one, get a fancy deck or buy an external TBC, assuming you are playing analog tapes with your camcorder, for digital tapes you don't need any of that just transfer native DV.
And by the way there is no such 8mm to VHS adapter.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

For DV or D8, correct.

(For analog, not correct. Dropped frames are still an issue. That's what the external TBC is for. Remember: Internal to clean the picture, external to clean the signal.)

And TBCs in cameras often are not true TBCs. So you actually drop frames in the camera, before the modulated analog is output again. Or the digital DV file is transferred over Firewire. Remember that playback and analog capture is done as one step with DV/D8 cameras. That's rarely a good thing.

I have an external TBC the AVT-8710, It just introduces artifacts to my video I don't trust it anymore so I took it off my workflow, Maybe because I don't have dropped frames to begin with, I got it because I have few VHS tapes that have wavy magnetic tape edge was hoping to compensate for the damaged synchro track on the tape but it did nothing to fix the problem.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

I think Lordsmurf means if your camera dropping frames then you either get another one, get a fancy deck or buy an external TBC, assuming you are playing analog tapes with your camcorder, for digital tapes you don't need any of that just transfer native DV.
And by the way there is no such 8mm to VHS adapter.

To just transfer DV for digital tapes, wouldn't my cam'a firewire have to work? Can you give an example of a fancy deck? Thanks

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_in_bull_city

To just transfer DV for digital tapes, wouldn't my cam'a firewire have to work? Can you give an example of a fancy deck? Thanks

Yes for Digital8 tapes you have to have a working iLink port on your camcorder. Before you buy another camcorder or deck see if dropped frames are Vdub issue post your setting and follow up with Lordsmurf or anyone who is well familiar with Vdub. D8/Hi8/8mm decks range from $500 to $1500 not an option if you are on a limited budget.

[msgohan]

Troubleshooting VirtualDub dropped frames: first confirm that you can capture with 0 drops if you disable audio capture entirely and capture from a stable source (DVD player, if possible).

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Back with an update. So I believe I'm following the settings suggestions as best as I can from here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...virtualdub.htm

Some details that might be relevant:

- Under Device, I have "Elgato Video Capture (DirectShow)" selected.

- I have Video set to Overlay, and the Format option is greyed out.

- Video source is Video SVideo (I have S-video running from camcorder to elgato)

- For video compression, I have Huffyuv v2.1.1 set to predict median (best) and predict gradient (best)

- For audio source, I have "Capture Device" selected. There is an option for "Analog Audio In (Elgato Video Capture)", but strangely if I select this the capture immediately fails. I do get audio on the captured videos using "Capture Device" though.

- For audio compression, I have <No compression (PCM)>

- In the bottom right, I set audio to 48k/16/s and video to 29.97fps.


I confirmed that I had previously had "Enable audio playback" turned on, so I turned that off. It seemed like this had done the trick and it was working great, I captured the first 2.5 minutes or so with 0 dropped frames (it had previously been a pretty constant stream of several dropped frames per second). Then, the dropped frames count jumped to 3332 and stayed there. I let it capture another 15-20 seconds and then stopped it to check on the captured file. When it got to the part where the frames dropped, the audio in the video sounded like the tape was being eaten. I ran back the tape on the camcorder and played it there again and it still plays perfectly.

So... what gives?

And I saw the suggestion to capture a known stable source with the Elgato. I'm worknig on that. Working on finding a device that has the right outputs to test (S-video, RCA...)

Thanks for the help!

EDIT: Ok I just found a DVD player that had one of my wife's workout dvds in it. That should do the trick as a capture test. So far it's 2 minutes in and no dropped frames.

[lordsmurf]

I'll go update that guide this week.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

15 minutes in and 0 dropped frames from the DVD player.

So what does that mean? Bad camcorder? Camcorder okay and I need an external TBC?

I'm even browsing the web and stuff and the DVD capture is going like a champ. FWIW I was not doing anything whatsoever in the background while capturing from the camcorder. But my system should handle it fine even if I did.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

I'm saying the cameras is the weak link right now. I'd hate to use one to capture 10 tapes, much less 100 or more.

I'm also saying that TBC is usually not needed between a DV camera and computer, be it via analog capture or via firewire transfer. The digital or analog output signal is DV, not true analog. It was not analog the moment that the camera touched it.

Then again, all models differ some. There is a potential that this camera is playing Video8 and Hi8 without the DV conversion step. And that would be preferable. And in that case, a TBC would solve your problem. Dropped frames are most often caused by lack of TBC on a bad video signal.

However, bad VirtualDub settings, or capturing with sound preview, is another. So let's confirm your VirtualDub settings.

OK I did a brief audit of the 8mm tapes I have and have some additional info. The tapes actually span 1987-2007. It appears to me that most/all of the tapes from 1987-2000 are simply labeled '8' or 'Video8'. In the early 2000's, there starts to be a smattering of tapes labeled "Hi8". Beginning in 2005, there are some tapes labeled Digital8, but not all of them.

Furthermore, there are settings on the camcorder itself that can be tweaked if that would help. Here is a link to my camera's user manual for reference: DCR-TRV740 Manual

Here are the VCR settings on my camcorder that I can tweak:

The format for this will be [Feature]: [options] (currently selected option)

HiFi Sound: Stereo, 1, 2 (Stereo)

TBC: On, Off (On)

DNR: On, Off (On)

Audio Mix: Slider from ST1 to ST2 (Centered between them)

A/V->DV Out: On, Off (On)

PB Mode: Auto, Hi8/8 (Auto)

ETC options

Display: LCD, V-Out/LCD (LCD)



So, it looks like maybe I could set A/V->DV Out to off and have it play back completely analog with no DV transcoding going on within the camcorder? But then if I did that I would need an external TBC (or maybe I do regardless?) What would that setting do when I get to the Hi8/Digital8 tapes if I have it set to off?

Thanks again for taking the time to read this stuff and help me. Getting these videos backed up and available digitally will really mean a lot to my family. We just lost my (maternal) grandmother, and my mother especially appreciates having all these memories on video.

[latreche34]

You need DV to be ON for Digital8 tapes only, Hi8 and 8mm you can turn DV off, Try capturing with DV off and post back.
Also if you are not using S-Video cable try using one that may help.

[wolf_in_bull_city]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You need DV to be ON for Digital8 tapes only, Hi8 and 8mm you can turn DV off, Try capturing with DV off and post back.
Also if you are not using S-Video cable try using one that may help.

Yeah I am already using S-Video. And it's a brand new monoprice s-video cable that I just ordered from amazon.

I will try capturing again with DV off. What about PB Mode? Should I take that off Auto and set it to Hi8/8?

[msgohan]

All that A/V->DV Out does is change the signal direction of the analog connections. The analog ports on these units serve a dual purpose since there aren't separate inputs and outputs. When you turn the function on and use the standby or record mode, they become inputs instead of outputs. When playing back a tape, they will always be used as outputs.

The only downside of using PB Mode Auto that I have seen is that you can lose some frames or perhaps a second of video at the start of a new recording as the player attempts to decide whether it needs to interpret the signal as analog or digital.

For the capture troubleshooting, I was thinking more like a 2 hour capture to be sure. After that, do the same thing but enable audio capture from the DVD player. If that succeeds, try an 8mm capture with audio capture disabled.