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  #1  
05-28-2016, 09:25 AM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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CD, DVD, Bluray, USB Flash Drive, Micro SD Card which is the best option, more reliable and safe to store my important files for many years?
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  #2  
05-28-2016, 12:24 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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DVD = archival
Why? Platters on both sides, data sandwiched. Optical, not magnetic. No moving parts.
Issues: Dyes can degrade, light, moisture, overly hot, overly cold, 2nd layer of dual-layer less safe.

HDD = semi-archival
Why? No dyes to degrade, enclosed media, not really subjected to high temperatures (though cold and moisture are still issues), no issues with light.
Issues: Moving parts, magnetic.

CD = NOT archival
Why not? No upper polycarbonate means the dye layer is easily exposed.

Blu-ray = NOT archival
Why not? It's an inverted CD in structure. But instead of no covering, you have a very thin polycarbonate. Unlike CD or DVD, all BD must have an anti-scratch coating (whereas DVD had premium anti-scratch "archival" discs that were sold). The non-archival nature of BD is well-known among manufacturers of the media. It's the main reason that HD-DVD was going to win the HD optical formats war -- until Sony spend $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ (literally, to their own $billions losses!) to bribe everybody to adopt their inferior format.

solid-state / RAM-based (SSD, flash, SD, CF, etc) = NOT archival!!! ... worse than CD/BD!!!
Why not? The only benefit of solid-state is speed and no moving parts. It's completely electronic in nature, and far more affected by power issues (surges, overages, underages, etc). And contrary to popular online myth, it is still affected by magnetic fields. These all have finite read/write cycles as well, as each read/write degrades it over time unlike HDD (though similar to RAM/RW opticals.) SD and flash cards are well-known as unsafe for archival. CF fairs a bit better. Time will tell on the new RAM-based formats used in professional cameras (XQD, etc). Only use flash storage for temporary needs, such as shooting photos, or physically moving data from A to B (home to work, etc).



The safest way is to store archives is:
- Verbatim DVD (DVD5/SL) at location 1
- Taiyo Yuden DVD at location 2
- Seagate HDD at location 1
- not-Seagate HDD at location 2/3
- and maybe even an encrypted (perhaps also obfuscated) online digital locker, like Dropbox or your own server

Note that really important files should never be compressed (zip, rar, etc). That just complicates the matter. However, inversely, sometimes archives can be better recovered than tiny files. So do both. Never do just one.

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  #3  
05-28-2016, 12:53 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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my cd died has errors and my DVD is still 100% good tests nero discspeed 2016 and they are stored in the same location, this happened because the CD has no polycarbonate protection on top of the disc and the DVD has polycarbonate at the top? the CD-R is smartbuy Prodisc (paper case) and dvd + r is philips cmc (slim cd case)

the two discs were burned in 2013 and built in 2010
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  #4  
05-28-2016, 03:03 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamemaniaco View Post
my cd died
this happened because the CD has no polycarbonate protection on top of the disc
Yes, that's almost always why, assuming the CD-R was always good (ie, tested after burn).

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  #5  
05-28-2016, 03:15 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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I remember doing with scan nero discspeed on the disc you burned in 2013 and no error and now in 2016 the CD-R has errors in test
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  #6  
07-14-2016, 04:29 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Lord Smurf...got your thread link from my own thread over at Video Help

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...-USB-Revisited

Question for you: why even bother with a SSD/HDD backup if the cells eventually die or the organic layers oxidize in HDDs under IDEAL storage conditions anyways? What's the point? Are we assuming that we may "get lucky" and they may last 15 years?
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  #7  
07-14-2016, 08:26 PM
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SSD isn't backup media, so don't bother.

Yes, cells do die after use, eventually. But backup isn't really read/write intensive enough to kill the cells. The main issue is cell death from lack of power over a long period, especially if the SSD is past it's prime. Not something silly like days or even months, but years. (Note than HDDs can suffer the same issue from mechanics, but the data is still extractable in an ISO clean room repair.)

HDD is semi-archival because it suffers different loss symptoms that optical (heat, moisture, etc).

Oxidizing is a property of optical media, so I think you've confused some things.

Yes, the point is to get lucky -- but in an educated way. Hence multiple backup media in multiple locations.

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  #8  
07-14-2016, 11:09 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Oxidizing is a property of all organic material unless hermetic. Hard drives surely oxidize in terms of their internal metalworkings do they not? Or is it not as prone as a thin DVD/CD?

I heard of the M-DISC...but it sounds like a marketing ploy for BD-Rs....

Last edited by TheLastOfUS; 07-14-2016 at 11:20 PM.
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  #9  
07-15-2016, 12:33 AM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Also why is Hard drive semi-archival? I have a friend who claims he still has his Windows 95 SE PC being able to be booted and used...says Hard drives can last decades if unused..not sure how true it is though
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  #10  
07-15-2016, 06:09 AM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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My samsung dvd drive does not support jitter, pie, pif it can not provide me with an estimate of years of life util my disk? the manufacturer of my dvdr disc estimated 40 years of useful life but if my DVD drive does not have support for these errors then I can not really know how old the disk had been good? I test with Nero DiscSpeed and no error found 100% good
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  #11  
07-15-2016, 04:28 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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A friend of mine claims he has HDDs working that are 15 years old. Also claims he uses anti-static bags to "Seal" them from humidity and oxidation...thoughts Lordmurf?

Also - I noticed you put DVD above HDD in terms of variability. But if they're so prone to errors ...light....dye fade....humidity/temp...then why are they higher than HDD? Seems they'd be equal in that respect no? Or...DVD has more cons...

I'm just struggling with where to backup my things. I feel your advice is backup up more than one medium..which is why I'm considering BD-R and HDD backup. I still feel BD-R is more practical than DVD due to the inorganic layer of data even if they are like an inverted CD. They can hold more and the inorganic data layer is helpful for longevity.
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  #12  
07-15-2016, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamemaniaco View Post
My samsung dvd drive does not support jitter, pie, pif it can not provide me with an estimate of years of life util my disk?
Correct. You cannot test further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastOfUS View Post
A friend of mine claims he has HDDs working that are 15 years old. Also claims he uses anti-static bags to "Seal" them from humidity and oxidation...thoughts Lordmurf?
His claims are ridiculous. Yes, sometimes drives can last decades. But most will not. They usually encounter mechanical errors. All drives have some % of bad sectors, which grow over time. Disks don't really oxidize like discs. And then sealing bags actually increases risks of moisture collection, and has zero effect on humidity, as humidity is moisture + heat.

Quote:
Also - I noticed you put DVD above HDD in terms of variability. But if they're so prone to errors ...light....dye fade....humidity/temp...then why are they higher than HDD? Seems they'd be equal in that respect no? Or...DVD has more cons...
HDD lifespan is generally under 10 years. That's why. Single-layer DVD-R/DVD+R is far, far longer.

Quote:
I'm just struggling with where to backup my things. I feel your advice is backup up more than one medium..which is why I'm considering BD-R and HDD backup.
Yes, multiple media in multiple locations.

Quote:
I still feel BD-R is more practical than DVD due to the inorganic layer of data even if they are like an inverted CD. They can hold more and the inorganic data layer is helpful for longevity.
Inorganics is really no better than organics. In theory, it will last longer. But that's just one aspect. You need to take overall readability into account, as well as non-disc considerations. BD media is fragile compared to DVD, due to inverse design of already-known non-archival CD. Further, the read equipment is sparse compared to DVD or even CD -- like Laserdisc and Betamax, both of which are modern problems. Will BD readers widespread exist in 25-50 years? Given how it's not being used for serious archiving, it's extremely doubtful. You may find yourself paying $50+ to recover a single BD-R in future years! Optical readers in general have finite lifespans of less than 10 years.

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  #13  
07-15-2016, 07:00 PM
gamemaniaco gamemaniaco is offline
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which DVD drives supports jitter, pie, pif? I'm going to buy
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  #14  
07-15-2016, 08:27 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Thank you lord smurf. Your words are like creed / biblical levels to me.

Q1: Any thoughts on M-Disc? An engineering friend of mine in Japan said M-Disc BD-R's are phooey and overpriced crap similar to MAM-A (which I was like...well how about a gold layer?)

Q2: Lordsmurf seen some conflicting info on storage...I read another temp thread. Is it okay to store them in 80 degrees room? I have an upstairs...and its the only real place I have....storage. In summer it becomes 80...

Q3: So Blu-rays are fragile because of the bottom layer having a super thing polycarb layer. But you mention readability as a problem in say 20-30 years. If I may not find a Blu-Ray player in the next few years, why do I have a guarantee of finding a DVD player in the future?

Q4: Assume I keep the DVD away from light in temp conditions as Q2....how long will the DVDs probably last? Basically when should I backup the DVD-Rs? Whats a good time measure? Is it like every 2 years....every 10? I don't want to be a constant slave to the process.

Q5: Hard drives last only 10 years even if completely unused?

Q6: You mentioned Hard Drives have moisture problems even in antistatic bags. But a lot of them boast protection from humidity, oxidation, etc

from one document "moisture vapor barrier in anti static bags.
The moisture barrier protects
moisture sensitive items and
improves long term storage"

http://www.all-spec.com/Catalog/Stat...ier-Bags/60-71

Does your opinion still hold that hard drives...especially in an antistatic "moisture bag" are a bad idea?

Please let me know

Last edited by TheLastOfUS; 07-15-2016 at 08:41 PM.
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  #15  
07-16-2016, 03:47 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Also...Q4A : How long will pressed blu-rays last given not being played at all and stored in ideal conditions (what would these conditions be also please)

Q4B: How long will burned BD-Rs last given not being played at all used as backup?

Q4C: How long will pressed DVDs last given not being used at all and stored in ideal conditions (what would these conditions be). Also what would it be for burned DVD-Rs?
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07-17-2016, 05:48 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Final question: I have a DVD retail pressed and 2 copies of this DVD. I noticed one is much much thinner....than the other. Is it possible the factory they came out of (probably the same) messed up on 1 set and made it THINNER? It looks thinner when I see it from the side like the polycarbonate layer is shaved.... compared to the other one which has a more sandwiched appearance and feels smoother around the edges due to the increased thickness
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  #17  
07-18-2016, 02:56 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Awaiting your answers LordSmurf
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  #18  
07-20-2016, 12:13 AM
waloshin waloshin is offline
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M-Disc DVD the 1000 year life DVD. That is what I use as an upgrade for my scanning, archiving business.
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  #19  
07-20-2016, 06:27 PM
TheLastOfUS TheLastOfUS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waloshin View Post
M-Disc DVD the 1000 year life DVD. That is what I use as an upgrade for my scanning, archiving business.
This would be good but we're not storing tiny files here. We need more storage and M-Disc BD-R is a scam.
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  #20  
07-23-2016, 08:24 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
M-Disc BD-R is a scam
Based on what objective evidence? Can you give a reference/link?
The higher cost is in large part based on lower production/sales volume, as was the case with DVD-R and BD-R not so many years ago.

Generally speaking plastic bags slow moisture movement, but do not prevent it totally. Consider the plastic water/soda containers that gradually (over a year or more) shrink.

And the reality of it is that in 30-50 years (or, maybe 70 for some) no one will care about most of what is being "archived." The focus should be on that which really is of enduring importance.
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