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08-13-2016, 12:34 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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I'm trying to capture a VHS tape using the ATI 600 USB, but I'm having trouble getting the audio and video to stay in sync. I set my timing settings based on recommendations in this thread and have attached a screenshot.

I am capturing using a modern quad-core desktop, and I am saving to a different drive from the OS drive. Does anyone have any idea why my audio is drifting out of sync?


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File Type: png timing.png (16.4 KB, 43 downloads)

Last edited by someperson; 08-13-2016 at 12:51 PM.
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  #2  
08-13-2016, 01:55 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Did you finally decide on a tbc? Are you using one for capture?
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post40460

There are several settings that affect audio sync besides those shown in your posted image. These include the way capture is started ("Start capture", F5, or F6), using Overlay, using Audio Preview, disabling sync options without a TBC in circuit, etc. Many are described in this thread: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html.
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  #3  
08-13-2016, 06:28 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Did you finally decide on a tbc? Are you using one for capture?
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post40460

There are several settings that affect audio sync besides those shown in your posted image. These include the way capture is started ("Start capture", F5, or F6), using Overlay, using Audio Preview, disabling sync options without a TBC in circuit, etc. Many are described in this thread: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html.
I'm using "Start capture" in the menu to start the capture. Overlay is turned on, and audio preview is turned off.

I never actually got a TBC, unless you count the one in my JVC HR-S7600U, and now that you mention it, with the sync options turned off, it kind of makes sense that not using one would be a problem. I changed the options originally to match that thread because I noticed some problems, like the audio pitch changing at times (presumably to compensate for something).

The reason I never bought one is risk. I've read about problems with the black AVT-8710, and I've read about different issues with some TBC-1000 units on here. No matter what I choose, it seems like there is real risk that I'll end up with something bad.

I do happen to have a Panasonic DMR-ES15 lying around (we actually used this for its DVD recorder functionality back in the day). I know this isn't really a TBC, but should I try passing through this? Would it hurt the quality I get out of the tape?
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  #4  
08-13-2016, 06:37 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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If you don't want to use the AVT-8710, and don't trust the ES15, and aren't looking for another tbc unit, I'm afraid there's not much more one can offer for solutions. Perhaps you've overlooked the hundreds of posts and reports from people who've used the ES15 for pass-thru. If you're afraid of that one, the ES10 is very slightly better. I've used both. I've posted dozens of captures made with my ES10 or ES15 for pass-thru.

Original capture of bad tape/bad signal non-TBC VCR w/Panasonic pass-thru: Liv5A_cut_EP_original_cap.mp4 unprocessed.
Same pass-thru capture after cleanup: Liv5A_ivtc_cut_EP_playback sample.mp4

The ES10/ES15 have decent frame timing, even with crummy tapes. They're just not full-scale for defeating Macrovision.

Last edited by sanlyn; 08-13-2016 at 06:59 PM.
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  #5  
08-13-2016, 06:43 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
If you don't want to use the AVT-8710, and don't trust the ES15, and aren't looking for another tbc unit, I'm afraid there's not much more one can offer for solutions.
I never said I wasn't looking! I only said I didn't pick one up because of risk. Like, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to just randomly get a TBC-1000 from eBay. And my understanding from what I read is that the black AVT-8710 is particularly unreliable, and the green ones are pretty much impossible to find (yes, I'm aware lordsmurf has a post in the Marketplace right now offering some for sale. I sent him a PM a while ago, and I'm waiting for a response).

I also never said I didn't trust the ES15! I was just asking if using it could hurt anything.
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  #6  
08-13-2016, 08:02 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by someperson View Post
I also never said I didn't trust the ES15! I was just asking if using it could hurt anything.
That sounds petty much like mistrust to me, but the reply is: no, it won't "hurt" anything. Be sure to disable its dnr playback in the "Display" menu settings, as most advanced users have advised. Anyway, hopefully you'll find what you want. I've seen restored tbc's at TGrantPhoto, a pro shop many users here recommend for the likes of rebuilt prosumer vcr's, proc amps, and such. I assume your tape player has a line tbc, which you'll definitely need for VHS along with a frame-level tbc. An ES10/ES15 furnishes both functions. I've used both with excellent results. Give your ES15 a try and see what you think of it -- why take someone else's word for it?

You might not like the way the TBC-1000 softens images. I sure didn't.
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  #7  
08-13-2016, 10:57 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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Hmm... I just captured the tape again through the DMR-ES15. The audio is still out of sync. Any ideas?
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  #8  
08-14-2016, 04:15 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Hmm. From things you mentioned earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by someperson View Post
I'm using "Start capture" in the menu to start the capture. Overlay is turned on
That's two things that were not recommended in the thread at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html.

Quote:
Originally Posted by someperson View Post
I noticed some problems, like the audio pitch changing at times (presumably to compensate for something).
Pitch changes usually result from having very poor sync on input and turning on "Sync audio to video by resampling the audio to a faster or slower rate" in the resync options, which is turned on by default. The newer thread that's being updated at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html also mentioned audio sync being affected by capturing to lossy compression video or audio codecs, capturing with no compression at all, running filters such as VDub denoising or activating filters in the "Filter chain" dialog, setting Timing Options to use incoming timestamps from faulty input, capturing to multi-segment files, and others. Someone even mentioned capturing to RGB as causing problems. It also seems as if you might be getting bad timing from your 7600 (one of which I used to own) which would be difficult to correct unless you try turning off the 7600's line tbc -- the ES15 has both line and frame tbc activity inside, so try using the ES15's tbc's instead.

The discussion in the newer thread is in 5 parts. Look over the text as well, as the pictures don't always reflect your specific capture device. If you find nothing there that solves the sync problem, look into any background apps running in your operation system (example, I stopped using AVG Antivirus because it slowed down the whole world and kept telling me VirtualDub was a virus!), I'd suspect that either you need a stronger tbc like those you mentioned to correct a major source problem, or the timing clocks in your ATI 600 USB are going haywire.

Last edited by sanlyn; 08-14-2016 at 04:28 AM.
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  #9  
08-14-2016, 11:28 AM
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Overlay vs. preview is very system/hardware dependent. Even 15 years later, I don't understand why this is. In theory, overlay should almost always work best. This is what I use on (almost) all ATI AIW cards.

This thread is a work in progress: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html
A few members are being asked to submit their settings. When I make my final guide, I don't want to overlook anything. sanlyn has been very thorough, and matches what I do about 95%. I'll explain my differences in there later. That post should serve you well at the moment.

I may have one last TBC available. I've been busy in recent weeks. I'll check that soon.

ES10/ES15 has artifacts. In general, yes, it's not a good choice for TBC. It's ideal for instances when the correction of tearing outweighs the slight addition of temporal and NR artifacts. Even with NR off, it posterizes. Many do not notice the artifacts, and the degree of artifacting varies highly based on the source tape. But I see it. After 20+ years or converting tapes, I see everything -- even if I don't want to!

Just for test, have you tried ATI CMC with a high bitrate (15mbps) MPEG-2 capture? See what happens on the sync. Report back.

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  #10  
08-14-2016, 01:29 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I may have one last TBC available. I've been busy in recent weeks. I'll check that soon.
I really appreciate it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Just for test, have you tried ATI CMC with a high bitrate (15mbps) MPEG-2 capture? See what happens on the sync. Report back.
I'm having trouble getting CMC set up on here properly. It seems to only detect the ATSC portion of the ATI USB 600. Screenshots are attached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Pitch changes usually result from having very poor sync on input and turning on "Sync audio to video by resampling the audio to a faster or slower rate" in the resync options, which is turned on by default. The newer thread that's being updated at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html also mentioned audio sync being affected by capturing to lossy compression video or audio codecs, capturing with no compression at all, running filters such as VDub denoising or activating filters in the "Filter chain" dialog, setting Timing Options to use incoming timestamps from faulty input, capturing to multi-segment files, and others. Someone even mentioned capturing to RGB as causing problems. It also seems as if you might be getting bad timing from your 7600 (one of which I used to own) which would be difficult to correct unless you try turning off the 7600's line tbc -- the ES15 has both line and frame tbc activity inside, so try using the ES15's tbc's instead.
I've been capturing to uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 and uncompressed 48 kHz audio. No denoising or filters are enabled, and I'm capturing to a single file.

I tried doing another capture, this time with the TBC on the 7600 turned off, and still running through the ES15. The audio still drifts out of sync.


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File Type: png video-input.png (278.4 KB, 10 downloads)
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  #11  
08-14-2016, 09:58 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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It's strange that you're capturing to uncompressed YUY2 when all the examples you've been directed to show capture setup for lossless huffyuv YUY2. You seem to be misunderstanding or mistaking some steps, but since no one here can see your computer screens it's time to let us know what kind of settings you're using and what Windows version. If you're using settings that you've already found in other examples, let us know where you found them. Audio will drift out of sync if you're capturing audio in compatibility mode without the need to do so. For example, what do you show for your audio source and audio input in the Audio menu? At the bottom of the Audio menu, what device do you have selected for audio? How do you start your captures, by clicking on "Start Capture, by pressing F5, or by pressing F6?
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  #12  
08-15-2016, 08:34 PM
someperson someperson is offline
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All good points. I just did another capture though, and it's still out of sync. This time I was compressing to HuffYUV. This PC is running Windows 10. The audio device is set to "Capture device", audio source is set to "Audio Line", and the audio input submenu shows "No audio inputs". And I started the capture by pressing F6.

-- merged --

I tried it on a different PC (a Windows 7 laptop) with ATI CMC, and ended up with obviously dropped frames.
This is frustrating the hell out of me. Is there a chance this ATI 600 USB is defective or something?

-- merged --

Just to try to rule out any potential problems with my tapes, the VCR, and the lack of a TBC, I've done tests trying to capture the ES15 just playing a commercial DVD. Sure enough, I'm running into the same issue with audio sync. What is going on here?

-- merged --

I think I found a solution: AmaRecTV. I have no idea why I was having so much trouble with VirtualDub, but AmaRecTV seems to be working very well. I've captured a couple of tape, not even using the ES15, and the audio sync and pitch seems fine. I don't see any evidence of dropped frames either.
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