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  #1  
05-18-2018, 11:27 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Hi,

kinda confused when i read the VCR list and it said it as Full Field (Multi Line) TBC instead of Line TBC.
it that a normal Full Frame TBC?

I always thought it had Line TBC, that's why i bought it ages ago,
and i remember when i did some tests and displayed at VideoHelp that they said the Line TBC var lacking,
which i thought was sad, but what can you do. But if it now actually only has a normal TBC,
that make things a bit worse:s
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  #2  
05-18-2018, 03:24 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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A full-field multi-line is a line tbc that holds individual groups of scanlines in cache memory and releases them in precisely time-corrected batches of lines (all the lines in a frame at one time). Other types of line tbc's work with one scanline at a time before releasing hundreds of corrected scanlines.
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  #3  
05-18-2018, 03:53 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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So multi line doesn't have the effect of having all lines synced up nicely to remove the dancing effect?
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  #4  
05-18-2018, 04:14 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Both systems work.
"Dancing effect" ? What's the dancing effect? You mean vertical and angular line wiggles, bent verticals and borders, top border flagging, and other geometric line distortions? Both systems work. It depends, of course, on whether the tbc circuitry on the player has been properly maintained. Bad caps, memory problems, etc. -- they can weaken a tbc regardless of type.
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  #5  
05-18-2018, 04:17 PM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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yeah mean that.

But what about the normal TBC then, that's supposed to only fix the signal right, not do any correction on the lines?

Still though, guess the Multi Line TBC in my VCR just sucks then, barely does anything as far as i can tell;(
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  #6  
05-18-2018, 04:56 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
But what about the normal TBC then, that's supposed to only fix the signal right, not do any correction on the lines?
That's why you need an external frame-level tbc, which works on frame sync and signal timing errors.

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Still though, guess the Multi Line TBC in my VCR just sucks then, barely does anything as far as i can tell;(
The tbc circuits in some players aren't that strong, in the same way that the line-level tbc's in most pass-thru units aren't very strong, if they work at all. The line tbc in the Panny AG-1970 isn't all that strong, either. Fortunately you can use a pass-thru line tbc and save the day (DMR-ES10 or ES15 preferred and tested many times over). https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...hat-do-you-use
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  #7  
05-19-2018, 03:27 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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But i thought a VCR could also have that frame TBC thingy, though line TBC is the common one?

Also i do actually have some TBC DVD, Toshiba D-3 or something like that?
Though i can't say it does anything, perhaps it does a frame TBC, i duno.
But it does change the levels of the video, so that's not fun, so i never don't use it anyway xd
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  #8  
05-19-2018, 03:43 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Your Toshiba is probably the D-KR2, or other D2 series. It has a weak line TBC and fairly decent frame sync tbc (but pass-thru's won't defeat copy protection). All pass-thru devices affect the signal level in some way, as do external tbc's and external proc amps. Check your capture levels as required. The strongest pass-thru devices recommended are the Panasonic DMR-ES10 or ES15. They can smear motion or cause posterizing effects if you don't turn off the Panny's noise reduction. Some other Pannies can be used as pass-thru, but they aren't as effective.

VCRs don't have frame-level tbc's. Those that have tbc's are line-level only.
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  #9  
05-19-2018, 05:35 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Toshiba D-R3, that's the one, checked some old mail.

But how about the JVC with like 4mb TBC ram, isn't that to hold several frames and then send then with a good sync etc?

Feels kinda weird if it does some Line TBC on several frames in queue?
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  #10  
05-19-2018, 05:59 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Which JVC? 4mb memory sounds like a 7600 series, which has one of he smaller RAM chips in the JVC line. Useless players for slow-speed recordings, but OK for normal SP tape. Soft image with motion smearing, so turn off dnr and use EDIT mode.
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  #11  
05-19-2018, 06:04 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Think it was the 9000 series, not sure.

Yeah read that it wasn't good with LP and EP tapes.
But from my understanding DNR is something you kinda want as it can actually clean up much of the noise that's a pain to do via post processing?

My currnt VCR has some 3D-DNR, whatever that means, i guess it can detect the difference between frames and work from there, but i would guess most DNR has that feature.
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  #12  
05-19-2018, 07:04 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The 7600 series, which are lighter weight models compared with the 9000 series, had 4MB chips in some models. Higher up JVC's had 8MB memory chips. Either way, all of their tbc's did the job adequately.

I encountered three types of VCRs out there. (a) a VCR that cleans noise (and removes detail that can't be recovered) but still needs mild cleanup after capture, (b) VCRs that create noise (which obscures detail and causes more detail loss later because of strong filtering needed in post capture cleanup), and (c) the middle case where a VCR simply plays what's on the tape without causing new problems or detail loss and requires some cleanup post-capture with more sophisticated filters that help retain detail.

I prefer the (c) type such as older Panasonic SVHS machines from the mid-1990's that have no tbc but have robust tracking and can use pass-thru units, or the other (c) type with less noise reduction but with good line tbc's such as the AG-1980 or AG-1970. I don't personally care for JVC machines or their color rendition and softer images especially after three of them ruined some of my tapes, and I certainly wouldn't recommend the (b) type of average junk VCRs. Everyone has their preferences.
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  #13  
05-19-2018, 08:04 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Ah,

hmm, well my only experience is basically with a random Sharp one,
and this Panasonic, which i guess is decently high end.

And i seems to me that Panasonic likes to oversharp a bit, Sharp seems to behave the same.
But as i don't have other VCRs to test on, it's hard to tell if it's actually the tape, or perhaps the Capture Card etc.

Kinda need to make a system that can have the other Capture Card i bought ages ago, as i can't have it in the system if a another GPU is there, it simply won't work for some reason, it's like it's not there. (Some ATI PCI card).

And i also need to somehow get my hands on a good VCR with a Line TBC (that actually works very well),
but damn it's hard to even find them, it's too bad they don't create new ones with current technology,
except perhaps industrial stuff that cost a fortune ;P
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  #14  
05-20-2018, 12:32 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Like most of us, you seem to be doing what you can with what you have. I'd recommend a Panasonic ES10 or ES15 for pass-thru as the best and least expensive workaround for tbc problems. Frankly for some years I've been using a non-tbc Panasonic PV-S4670 and non-TBC PV-S4672 SVHS players (rebuilt 1996 forerunners of the AG series) with ES10's and ES15's as pass-thru and have come to prefer them over the AG-1980 and JVC's with their (relatively) smeary dnr and whatnot, even if the non-dnr machines mean a little extra cleanup after capture.

Meanwhile there are guaranteed good performers at a dealer and pro shop who has been recommended for some time now: https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/in...fessional-vcrs. Not cheap, though. Supplies keep dwindling, prices keep going up.
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  #15  
05-20-2018, 03:17 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Could you give perhaps a clip with and without the Panasonic ES10/15 passthrough?
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  #16  
05-20-2018, 08:50 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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People have been posting samples and tests for years.

Examples with the ES15, which seems to be easier to find in the marketplace:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...bo#post1882662

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e4#post1983288

An AVI side by side comparison with bad tape and ES15 as full motion AVI:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachme...erformance.avi
The AVI is from this post : https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e6#post2296784

Extreme example of horrible crummy noisy damaged VHS fixed with the ES10, which folks say is slightly stronger than the ES15:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...BC#post1837208
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  #17  
05-20-2018, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
A full-field multi-line is a line tbc that holds individual groups of scanlines in cache memory and releases them in precisely time-corrected batches of lines (all the lines in a frame at one time). Other types of line tbc's work with one scanline at a time before releasing hundreds of corrected scanlines.
This is the correct answer.

Field TBC are sometimes also called "infinite window" TBCs. Of course, so are frame TBCs, so again the ugly situation of it being a wide term.

Thinking back to the 90s, realizing I've slept since then, I vaguely recall the reasoning for field TBC was to sync for editing. Remember, the Panasonic gear was mostly known as editing decks. I believe the line TBCs (like JVC S-VHS decks have) still have some degree of timing jitter when swapping signals, which makes it a poor fit for analog editing. The buffered field prevents partial switching jitter. But we're talking about something that hasn't mattered now in decade. The only thing to know if that the multi-line/field TBCs tend to be more powerful.

Similar discussion from 2014: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/myth...-timebase.html

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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The line tbc in the Panny AG-1970 isn't all that strong
I'm not sure I agree with this.
Compared to AG-1980, sure. But just in general, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
So multi line doesn't have the effect of having all lines synced up nicely to remove the dancing effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Your Toshiba is probably the D-KR2, or other D2 series. It has a weak line TBC and fairly decent frame sync tbc
Probably not. Most DVD recorders have a simple frame sync, not framesync TBC. Those simply sync the image, warts and all.

Read this: https://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/TBC.htm
It almost seems to contradict itself, doesn't it? That's because the term "TBC" is so loose.

From what I understand, the ES10 has a framesync with integrated line TBC (or quasi TBC). Both are powerful. But it has an integrated kill switch (of sorts), due to fear of Macrovision (and not actually legal reasons). So it fails on anything error it considers "copyright protection", whether accurate or not.

I know some Toshiba has some weaker-than-ES10 abilities, but it's still not many. And I don't think the DKR2 is one of them. The XS3x series was always praised for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
come to prefer them over the AG-1980 and JVC's with their (relatively) smeary dnr and whatnot, even if the non-dnr machines mean a little extra cleanup after capture.
The ES10 has DNR issues of its own. Everything processes.

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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Supplies keep dwindling, prices keep going up.
Repair is causing it. So much equipment is now broken that it takes 2-3 units, plus more parts, to arrive at a quality unit. (eBay is horrible. I have so many stories from this year, in my attempts to help others. It's a $hit show, with a 50%+ fail rate -- and that's for the "tested" and "works great" gear! Not even the broken auctions.) The situation is starting to make me sound like orsetto at VH, the resident pessimist curmudgeon there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
And i also need to somehow get my hands on a good VCR with a Line TBC (that actually works very well),
For PAL or NTSC?

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  #18  
05-20-2018, 09:40 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Well the TBC stuff sure is confusing.

Basically in what i want is.

First a stable signal (so the capture card won't drop frames).
Then a stable image (each line being close to perfect in sync with each other).

And obviously i don't want any of the steps that achieve this to mess up quality in the image otherwise;P (high demands!)


Quote:
For PAL or NTSC?
PAL, i live in Europe (Sweden), NTSC is of little to no interest for me when it comes to archiving tapes.
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  #19  
05-20-2018, 10:14 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Can't help you with more information. You have the answers, and from many sources. Don't know what else to say.

TBC correction for PAL and NTSC amount to the same thing. The ES10 and ES15 come in PAL and NTSC versions, and both work as advertised. If you don't see that correction and repair techniques are the same for PAL and NTSC, you don't understand either medium. You've been making the same uninformed excuses for several years now. If you can't try any of the tips or information you've been given by a dozen experts since 2014, there's not much more anyone in any of these forums can do except capture your tapes for you, which isn't likely to happen.
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  #20  
05-20-2018, 10:23 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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I had a break from the VCR stuff for several years (life).
And currently got hold of some tapes i wanted to archive, which brought back some interest.

Problem is, i can't really agree with i have "the answers", i have many explanations for different routes to take for different results etc.

I am trying to figure out what i should take for my situations.
The ES10 and ES15 are on my list, if i can find any of them i will try to obtain it.

I don't know how it is in the US, but getting stuff here is really hard, even the not-so-good ones.

Last time i was working on obtaining some gear i actually bought some, and old capture card that was recommeded (sadly can't use yet though -_-).
And this Panasonic NV-SV121 which sadly isn't up to par with i would like.

So i haven't been making any excuses, and i am sorry you take it that way,
i am grateful for your assitance, and if you feel it doesn't give you anything,
then maybe you should let my posts in these questions pass, neither you or i want to waste another ones time

Don't take it the wrong way, i am a happy go lucky person
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