Trying to digitize Russian SECAM tapes, B&W video?

[pirozhok]

I don't have experience in this stuff, trying to figure out what's wrong and how i can fix it. Any help/advice will be appreciated

First of all here's what i have.

1. Older Russian VHS tapes recorded i believe in SECAM D/K format (which is SECAM format used in former Soviet Union and satellite countries).

2. VCR is SONY SLV-SE40B multiformat unit, VCR is French version (thus B after model number), per user manual it can read PAL, SECAM and MESECAM formats and can output to PAL and NTSC.
VCR has 3 composite RCA connectors and old school aerial coaxial in and out ports, they look like those:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/UGREEN-Coax.../dp/B01N3TUSRU
I am attaching a picture of VCR ports.

3. Capture device is KWorld DVD Maker USB2800 unit, it has only RCA ports, no coaxial, older unit, manufacturer claimed it could capture NTSC and PAL for sure, and some online resources claim it could capture SECAM as well.
4. Capture software - AMCap

When i play my SECAM tapes to NTSC TV, i am getting sound and b/w video
Using AMCap i am getting b/w video and no sound

I've tried to play with VCR and AMCap settings to no avail - still getting b/w video, no sound.

Could it be that my capture device doesn't take SECAM signal, or VCR's composite connectors don't carry SECAM signal and i must use aerial coaxial ports? Anything else?

[lordsmurf]

The old Yakov Smirnoff bit comes to mind: "In my country, you no convert tapes, tapes convert you!"

And when dealing with weird formats, that's about how it feels.

KWorld didn't make anything, just rebadged. Even knowing the model number doesn't help much, as some companies just recycled it mid-production with other rebadged cards. And I'm pretty sure KWorld was one of these offenders. The good news is one version is actually a near-clone of the ATI 600 USB, but the bad news is you'll have to pry it open to verify the chipset on the stick. Most KWorld were just cheap Chinese junk cards. The true chipset is usually hidden behind the eMPIA bridge drivers, so no way to tell on the computer.

Odds are, no, it has no idea about SECAM. The only safe card for SECAM that I can think of would be an ATI AIW, which requires WinXP. And ATI AIW is one of the best cards anyway, so not making any sacrifices like the VCR.

I'm not a fan of Sony VCRs, but with odd formats like this, it's hard to be picky. I have a Samsung SV-5000W that I'd be using for this sort of conversion. But still just VHS, no TBC, not the best tracking or heads or transport, but again not much choice.

I'd use an ES10/15, at minimum, for this. External frame TBC always suggested as well, but for this exact source the ES10/15 may suffice. I need to know more about the source tapes, however, to say for certain.

[pirozhok]

What information do you need regarding the source tapes?

[latreche34]

That VCR you have should playback SECAM tapes in color with the right capture card, When shopping for capture cards or devices look at the specs, ask questions, post in the forum about it before you buy it.
As far as audio, it has nothing to do with the color system, If the VCR is outputting audio out of the RCA jacks it's either the capture software fault or your operating system.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pirozhok

What information do you need regarding the source tapes?

How were the tapes made?
VCRs, cameras?
Original recordings, or copies of copies?
This all matters. Tell me as much as you can about the tapes.

Quote:

Using AMCap i am getting b/w video and no sound

For capture software, use VirtualDub.

[pirozhok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

That VCR you have should playback SECAM tapes in color with the right capture card, When shopping for capture cards or devices look at the specs, ask questions, post in the forum about it before you buy it.
As far as audio, it has nothing to do with the color system, If the VCR is outputting audio out of the RCA jacks it's either the capture software fault or your operating system.

What capturing software would you recommend?

-- merged --

Tapes were made with VHS camcorders. Regular consumer equipment, not professional I believe. Some are the copies, some originals. Some tapes are major brands, some minor brands, some absolutely [trash] no-name stuff without any identifying markings (we had a lot of those cheap no-name tapes back in the days in Mother Russia).

[lordsmurf]

My advice stands then.
VCR > ES10/15 as minimal TBC(ish) > known SECAM-compliant card like ATI AIW to VirtualDub

Audio preview in VirtualDub must be off, but some cards route preview external to VirtualDub anyway. Or you can split incoming signal to route dual to both input and aux. Several ways to attack it. But not worth discussing yet, as that KWorld isn't going to work for you.

[pirozhok]

I have Dazzle DVC90 unit, no Win 10 drivers, but I have extra PC which I can turn to Win7 or WinXP machine, if that is worth it. Another option I was considering is secam to ntsc converter like this one: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53...m/372625374676

[lordsmurf]

Converters like that are extremely low quality. The video will look horrible.

Unsure if that Dazzle will work. Whatever you do, don't capture with Pinnacle Studio. If no VirtualDub, then move on to a better solution that does work with it.

Win10 is a lousy OS for video capture, XP or 7 are best.

[dpalomaki]

B&W workign makes me wonder if this an issue with 3.57 vs 4.43 mHz color subcarrier (so called PAL 60)?

[hodgey]

From what I can find, both the kworld and dazzle seem to be empia-based dongles, with either a Philips/NXP SAA7113 A/D chip or a chinese knock-off of it. The original should support secam formats no problem, not sure about the chinese knock-off versions. The capture system has to be set to the correct secam version though


PAL-60 is something you get from NTSC tapes in PAL decks, not Secam. Secam is similar to PAL, but the color is FM-encoded.

Do you know if the tapes were SECAM-L, which has actual Secam color stored on the tape, or MESECAM is a different simpler format piggybacking off PAL VHS recording circuitry? The internet suggest the latter is more likely for Russian tapes, "true" SECAM tapes were mostly limited to France, but I could be wrong. If the VCR is french, it might be outputting french SECAM by default, which will result in black and white image unless the capture device and TV is set to it and supports it.

What you really don't want to do is to convert to NTSC, SECAM has the same frame rate and number of lines as PAL but different color encoding. Converting it to NTSC would seriously impact the quality as NTSC has a different frame rate and number of horizontal lines. If you have to convert it, at least convert it to PAL.

[pirozhok]

I installed VirtualDub (32-bit version), and it did not play any video first.
Went back to AMCap, tried all video standards from the list, and suddenly got color video when "PAL_B" was selected, also i checked "VCR Input" box, please see a screenshot.
No audio though, AMCap doesn't detect audio in.
Tried VirtualDub again, and it started playing color video, without sound.
So now i got color video at last with both software tools, but still no sound, VD shows "line in" as audio source, AMCap doesn't show any audio source.

[pirozhok]

I will try Win 7 machine tonight, if no luck with sound, will try WinXP then.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pirozhok

VD shows "line in" as audio source, AMCap doesn't show any audio source.

You should select your capture card not "Line In" in both VDub and Windows audio panel.
So your tapes are PAL, what made you think they are secam?

[pirozhok]

Geez, i was sure they were SECAM tapes because SECAM was our standard for TVs and VCRs
In late 80s and 90s though many imported TVs and VCRs (and camcorders i guess) came as PAL/SECAM units. Well, now i am not sure about format of my tapes anymore. Is there a way to detect the format of VHS tape?

[latreche34]

Yes there is a way, You already tried it, Select all the formats from the capture software, One format only should come out in color, that's the format of your tapes.
The original tapes might been SECAM but someone probably converted the original VHS-C SECAM tapes to PAL during the copy process to another tape from one VCR/Camcorder to another multi standard VCR recorder. I know few people who made those mistakes, VCR's back then were complicated to them like computers now.

[hodgey]

The tapes may still be MESECAM, the player may be converting to PAL on playback.

[latreche34]

I bet that's what he is doing, Outputing as PAL.

[pirozhok]

I'd like to report a success - i got both color video and audio tracks.
It turned out that KWorld unit outputs audio to PC via audio cable while USB cable handles video feed.

That tape was from Russia recorded in 96, little known brand called RAKS (Turkish manufacturer using BASF tapes according to this site: http://vintagecassettes.com/raks/raks.htm), marked as VHS PAL/SECAM tape (people still selling them on Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/149960/i.ht...&_nkw=raks+vhs). Will try other tapes tomorrow, some of them bought in Russia and have PAL/SECAM markings, some from US.

[latreche34]

There is no such blank tape PAL or blank tape NTSC, They all work on all standards, The reason why your tape are PAL is probably because your VCR is converting them, Check the user manual to set the VCR correctly.