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06-26-2019, 11:18 PM
confusedperson confusedperson is offline
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I've had this issue with my capture device (Dazzle Video Creator) for quite some time. If there's a jittery picture in EP (which is inevitable with tapes), the capture will record it as a black frame. So if the picture ever gets jittery at any point the whole thing starts flashing like a strobe. This only occurs on playback (the files the device makes) and not on the live footage (what you can see while you have it plugged into the PC).

I had just one VCR that didn't cause this problem to happen, the D-VHS, but it's wearing down (and no one will help me fix it in the other topic on the Repair forum) so, at least, I need a new capture device that doesn't do what this does.

It can't be the software (Pinnacle Studio) because I upgraded to a much newer version of it (from 14 to 19) and the problem was still there. Do any of you have recommendations for something cheap that does the job better without this problem?

Note that I said "cheap." That means less than $100. It also has to keep the file size reasonable. My current setup transfers a 2-hour tape at 5.4 GB; this is the ballpark I'm looking for.
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  #2  
06-26-2019, 11:40 PM
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This is very likely a lack of external frame TBC between VCR and capture card.

The Dazzle DVC is a lower-end device, though one I do find minimally acceptable. Something like the ATI 600 USB would be better, because the DVC has issues with over-contrast and blown highlighers, though nowhere near as bad as the EZcap (aka EZcrap).

You should not be using Pinnacle Studio for capturing, it's horrible software, very destructive. Use VirtualDub. If you want MPEG capture, only use the ATI AIW.

Better card is under $100.
Software is freeware.
TBC isn't cheap.

You're essentially doing what I've been warning people NOT to do for 15+ years now.

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  #3  
06-27-2019, 08:56 PM
confusedperson confusedperson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
This is very likely a lack of external frame TBC between VCR and capture card.

The Dazzle DVC is a lower-end device, though one I do find minimally acceptable. Something like the ATI 600 USB would be better, because the DVC has issues with over-contrast and blown highlighers, though nowhere near as bad as the EZcap (aka EZcrap).

You should not be using Pinnacle Studio for capturing, it's horrible software, very destructive. Use VirtualDub. If you want MPEG capture, only use the ATI AIW.

Better card is under $100.
Software is freeware.
TBC isn't cheap.

You're essentially doing what I've been warning people NOT to do for 15+ years now.
Wait, this is a TV tuner? I have a TV tuner; the WinTV HVR. I don't know how I would plug a VCR into it, though.

The particular model you mentioned doesn't appear to be for sale. It's out of stock on Amazon, and no one sells it with VCR cables on eBay.
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  #4  
06-27-2019, 09:40 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The ATI 600 is often sold in the forum's marketplace area.
Or you can try something very nearly as good such as Diamond Multimedia's VC500, which has been around for many years and is ideal for lossless capture with VirtualDub: https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Multi.../dp/B001FAE8MA.

But.....Dazzle? And Pinnacle?
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  #5  
06-28-2019, 08:57 PM
confusedperson confusedperson is offline
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Virtualdub doesn't work. I can't select my device because "Capture" is greyed out.

And is AVI the only file format possible?
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  #6  
06-29-2019, 09:40 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is online now
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The D-VHS recorder has a DV/firewire output ? your recordings are un-protected ?
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  #7  
06-29-2019, 01:34 PM
confusedperson confusedperson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
The D-VHS recorder has a DV/firewire output ? your recordings are un-protected ?
It does have a firewire port, actually...but they haven't made a computer that takes one for a long time!

Does anyone know how to get Virtualdub to work?
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  #8  
06-29-2019, 01:42 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is online now
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a pci firewire card ?
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  #9  
06-29-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
The D-VHS recorder has a DV/firewire output ? your recordings are un-protected ?
You cannot connect a D-VHS deck to a computer and use it as a DV transfer device. This has been discussed before on this site. There were a few buggy beta-grade tools that would transfer over MPEG-2, but that's it.

This is not a viable capture method.

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  #10  
06-30-2019, 02:00 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusedperson View Post
Does anyone know how to get Virtualdub to work?
Sure. Get rid of that Dazzle crap and get one of the capture devices recommended earlier. Millions of people all over the world use VirtuaLDub to capture and have been doing it for years.

You capture to lossless AVI if you intend to restore/repair your video by color correction, denoising, etc.. If you continue to use crap hardware, crap software, crap lossy encoding and crappy processing, you'll continue to get the same crappy results.

The Ati 600 and the VC500 are capture devices. They've been used for analog to digital capture from analog sources for many years. I don't know where you've been hanging out for your video information, but stop going there.
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  #11  
06-30-2019, 08:48 AM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Quote:
My current setup transfers a 2-hour tape at 5.4 GB; this is the ballpark I'm looking for.
That's about the data rate for a DVD.

I think there is a mismatch here between expectations and the equipment you have. DV is not related to DVD in any general sense. It makes larger video files but with less color information.

As mentioned devices you plug into a PC (to capture that generated DVD quality video) with hardware encoding were rare and far between. On the PC side I can only think of the Creative Video Editor/Blaster LSI boxes. On the Mac side the old eyeTV 200 and they had limited "profiles" or types of MPEG2. Tough to use too. DVD recorders and DVD with HDD recorders were more along that data rate and quality.. though they are getting harder to obtain and can't bought new anymore.

Practically, "over shooting" the quality of capture you need with a raw uncompressed capture, with huge data file sizes "is what you need". Then you can correct and back it down into the 5.4 GB range with compression.

The central problem though before you get to those steps is you need a good uncompressed capture device. Cheap means it will have to be USB or an old AGP card. And those will need a good stable signal, so you need a TBC or pass-through device to clean up the signal before capture. A good VCR is also a great first step.. but could take some effort to find, and then there is not one great VCR for every tape. - not to discourage you, but its going to take a lot more effort than ten or twenty years ago to find the gear and do a good job.

You have the best advisors on the net right now commenting above.
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  #12  
06-30-2019, 10:55 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is online now
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what i now think of is, does mp4 have a better color representation over MPEG2 ?
or is the compression technique of mp4 better then mpeg2 ?
since most people have a bluray player in the livingroom to play dvd or bluray discs or as data by usb/sd slot.
and there's the "post-workflow" ....
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  #13  
06-30-2019, 01:51 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Dazzle or any Pinnacle flavor of capture hardware works better on Windows 7 in lossless mode with Vdub, Avoid their capture software, Uninstall it and use a driver from this page.
If you have LP/EP tapes, 60% of your problems are VCR related, Not all VCR's handle low speed tapes the same way.

Keep in mind that capturing analog video via USB 2.0 or a PCI capture card is better done on Windows 7 or earlier, Unless you happen to have a SDI PCIe card or SDI USB 3.0 dongle then using any analog capture device to digital SDI works with no problems, SDI being a professional digital port it has the state of the art lossless capture software and is compatible with the latest PC and MAC operating systems (a lot of money put into it to keep it up to date), Also works well on Vdub.

Last edited by latreche34; 06-30-2019 at 02:10 PM. Reason: More details
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  #14  
06-30-2019, 04:48 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Dazzle or any Pinnacle flavor of capture hardware works better on Windows 7 in lossless mode with Vdub, Avoid their capture software, Uninstall it and use a driver from this page.
If you have LP/EP tapes, 60% of your problems are VCR related, Not all VCR's handle low speed tapes the same way.

Keep in mind that capturing analog video via USB 2.0 or a PCI capture card is better done on Windows 7 or earlier, Unless you happen to have a SDI PCIe card or SDI USB 3.0 dongle then using any analog capture device to digital SDI works with no problems, SDI being a professional digital port it has the state of the art lossless capture software and is compatible with the latest PC and MAC operating systems (a lot of money put into it to keep it up to date), Also works well on Vdub.
What you are saying is: the conversion of a VHS tape to SDI makes a steady video signal ? so a VHS player with SDI output gives a clean/steady video signal for any (capture?) device with SDI video input ?
this would be a good solution, but i'm afraid such a setup is even more rare, than legacy devices, advantage would be being able to use current operating systems, but no amateur or hobbyist will do effort to invest in such a setup, due to his/her stack of collected VHS tapes, once all are transferred.
It's a bit of a dillemma, most people face, who are not professionals in this field, but do get advise from some people here, that are....
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06-30-2019, 05:52 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I doubt a consumer VHS VCR with SDI out ever existed, However when the SDI input is available on the computer either via SDI PCIe card for desktops or SDI/USB 3.0 for laptops, then all what's needed is a SDI analog capture box, Theses boxes can be had used anywhere from $100 to $250 it depends if it is built in frame sync/full frame TBC or not, SDI/PCIe cards are around $10 to $40 used, SDI/USB adapters are usually expensive because they are still being used by the pros and semi pro on the field, the capture software comes with the SDI card or SDI/USB devices and is free, The setup can be used with Vdub as well, I tried it myself and it captures in SD AVI 10bit or 8bit 4:2:2 PAL/NTSC.

The advantages of this workflow in addition to the compatibility with newer OS's are:
- More stable capture and way less dropped frames.
- No conversion back to analog after the full frame TBC has done its work, SDI all the way to the captured AVI file.
- Component input is always available in addition to S-Video and composite.

Last edited by latreche34; 06-30-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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  #16  
06-30-2019, 06:23 PM
jwillis84 jwillis84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
what i now think of is, does mp4 have a better color representation over MPEG2 ?
or is the compression technique of mp4 better then mpeg2 ?
since most people have a bluray player in the livingroom to play dvd or bluray discs or as data by usb/sd slot.
and there's the "post-workflow" ....
Compression and color space can be thought of as a trade off between bit-rate and features. Independent of each other. You can have a lower or higher bit rate with the same color space. Or the same bit rate but that supports 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 it all up to your choice.

The reason for making the decision to trade off is you want smaller file sizes... usually. Or that you know you want to be able to correct or edit the stream later and the results will be better if you capture in one stream format and perform that task, then save final rendering to a different "smaller" format later.

The .mp4 file format is a document format for holding audio and video streams. The streams can be encoded with different compression or color space. Although the "Profile" tends to bundle a set of decisions into one "set". And that "set" is either "supported" or not "supported" by your playback software or playback device. The popular consumer "Profiles" get a common name, like MPEG2 or H.264 or H.265, DiVx ect.. you can usually find these (popular names) on the side of a box that holds software, or on the box of a DVD player for example.

Comparing MPEG2 vs .mp4 would be "generically" assuming your talking about a specific set of decisions (a) you don't really plan to correct or edit later (b) you "really" want smaller file sizes

To answer with a simple example: Given the same bit rate (and/or same file sizes) then the "higher" or "later" developed codec will usually be better. MPEG2 has problems with macro-blocking for example.. which later codecs targeted to get rid of.. given the same bit rate. The files didn't get any smaller, but the macro-blocking went away. But as soon as you drop the bit rate other problems emerge.. there is no "free lunch".. and as soon as you "Require" a more advanced decoder.. then you start eliminating older playback software and older playback hardware. For a 20 year old cell phone user not an issue.. for a 40 something DVD only playback user it starts to be an issue.

The current OP for example however prioritizes 2 hour ~5.7 GB/hr storage rates, over picture quality. And that would be either a high quality .mp4 (MPEG4-part3, 10 ect..) or an average quality MPEG2 DVD file format.

There are so many variables and decisions to make, that people without the time or experience to acquire all the situational awareness will default "to what they know" and reserve the option to change their mind later when new evidence arrives. They are satisfied with "what you don't know won't hurt".. These people may hold on to "special tapes" like wedding videos ect.. and chose to re-capture later if given enough proof.. or a later generation in the family wants to take a crack at it. Commercially available Blu-ray or DVD movies and series probably never make sense unless there are no other options.

The rules of thumb have been stick with MPEG2 DVD formats if you have the disk space and haven't grown up with HiDef television. Fall back to .mp4 if you simply don't have the storage space or plan to upload your clips or recordings to the cloud. -- if your straddling and trying to bring your old SD video into the HD realm and play it back on your Big screen LCD television.. lord help you, but you need all the bit-rate help and color correction you can get. A high rate .mp4 or .mkv with an advanced codec is probably necessary to get the advanced features to minimize artifacts common to older codecs.. but make sure you have the playback software or hardware to support those formats.

And once its done.. don't transcode for permanent storage.. that's just a recipe for modern generation loss.

The "safest" decision for an archivist.. or that requires the least thought, but most money.. is capture Uncompressed and store it that way permanently. Even with "lossless" storage formats like Huffyuv or Lagarith the files will be large, but nothing is lost to future generations looking to apply modern algorithms. They will have every bit possible with whatever your capture hardware could generate.. nothing was thrown away. Even today with modern computers and voluminous hard drives, this is a tough option for the consumer to commit to, but its the simplest non-decision to make.

Storing Uncompressed, also has the benefit of not-worrying about whether there will be a playback codec or playback device in the future that can read the data. Its a minor issue, but its something to consider.. that is, who will be the audience for your captured video? Yourself? Relatives.. grandkids.. thousand year archeologist living on a Martian Colony?

Last edited by jwillis84; 06-30-2019 at 06:46 PM.
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