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  #41  
05-16-2011, 12:51 PM
newby newby is offline
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I've got no reason to suspect it to be otherwise. It looks GREAT hooked directly to monitor. Even on problem tapes, the image really is quite good all things considered. but ya, I'm going to keep trying stuff.

Does anyone even test/repair vcr decks anymore?
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  #42  
05-16-2011, 01:00 PM
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Repair VCRs? Yes, there are fix-it shops here and there.

I repair our equipment, as time permits, and the need arises. Only the worst errors require outside assistance, usually to re-solder components, or to get a second opinion look-over. An excellent shop is Jots Electronics in Arlington, Texas (Dallas area).

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  #43  
05-21-2011, 08:50 PM
newkt newkt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post

(2) Key West Big Voodoo BVTBC. This unit freaks out on the JVC blue screen, too [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post

Both my AVT-8710 and the CTB-100 freak out on the JVC blue screen. But I don't get that same effect when playing a video.
I can live with a messed up JVC OSD ( I don't really sit around and cap myself flipping around the jvc settings ).
Well, now I have something to add to this thread as well ...

Having first read this thread over a week ago, I saw what appeared to be 4 strikes in a row with the current AVT-8710 crop from B&H -- bad batch? -- and so I decided to go Tuco's route of ordering the CTB-100 (new) on eBay from "weesolutions" (Ambery), in the hope that the silver box with the blue stickers would be ""the one that works" ... (Although I actually would have preferred to go with B&H, since I've ordered numerous things from them before) ...

And when I first tried out the CTB-100 last night, I was ready to send it back because of the way it freaked out on the JVC blue screen -- until I went back to re-read this thread tonight, and I noticed the quotes above ... I've only used the CTB-100 with a single pre-recorded very "clean-playing" S-VHS tape -- a "Picture Perfect" test/reference tape played on the SR-V10U that I also just bought -- and the CTB-100 seemed to have no effect (negative or positive) on that tape's playback ...

So before I worry too much about this CTB-100 (or send it back), I guess my question is -- What kind of "blue-screen freak-out" should I expect?

What I'm getting now on the JVC blue screen with the CTB-100 is a rapid flickering, sometimes combined with other weird stuff, like a partial videotape frame -- left over in its frame buffer? -- and some strange blue curves at the top, and part of the screen "dimmed" sometimes ... But nothing like the bizarre "ghosting" of the OP's (first) AVT-8710 ...

As Tuco said, "I can live with a messed up JVC OSD" -- if that's all it is ... Is this kind of "blue-screen freak-out" just par for the course?

Thanks,
Kevin
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  #44  
05-21-2011, 10:24 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt View Post
What I'm getting now on the JVC blue screen with the CTB-100 is a rapid flickering, sometimes combined with other weird stuff, like a partial videotape frame -- left over in its frame buffer? -- and some strange blue curves at the top, and part of the screen "dimmed" sometimes ... But nothing like the bizarre "ghosting" of the OP's (first) AVT-8710 ...
My CTB-100 acts exactly the same way as you have described on the JVC OSD, but I have confirmed this unit to be working. Its no where as bad as the AVT-8710 I got from B&H; that one had problems in regular video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt View Post
and the CTB-100 seemed to have no effect (negative or positive) on that tape's playback ...
If there was no negative impact on the video then that is a good sign. Remember, the TBC isn't there to enhance the image; it just stabilizes the signal. On a "clean" tape that already plays well you shouldn't expect any noticeable image quality difference. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your capture card will like it without the TBC because it is more sensitive to erroneous signals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt View Post
Is this kind of "blue-screen freak-out" just par for the course?
I'm beginning to think it is(can others confirm their working TBC's freak out on the JVC OSD?). My CTB-100 goes nuts on the JVC OSD, but I can tell its working because on a tape with bad vertical jumping, the TBC eliminates the jumping almost entirely on some bad tapes and completely on some better, but not so stable tapes. I recently narrowed the jumping for this particular tape down to my SR-V10U and instead played the tape on my Toshiba W-707 with the CTB-100 connected and it worked fine. Another example of one of those tapes that just doesn't like my SR-V10U, although there aren't many.

Last edited by Tuco; 05-21-2011 at 10:37 PM.
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  #45  
05-22-2011, 02:36 PM
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Thanks, Tuco! That's really useful to know ...

"My CTB-100 goes nuts on the JVC OSD" is another great way to describe it ... After my previous post here, I put the JVC OSD menu through its paces -- with the CTB-100 in the mix -- and got even more bizarre behavior (too difficult to describe here) ...

However, since the CTB-100 does NOT seem to have adversely affected actual video playback, I'm a lot less concerned now about it being "broken" ...
So now the relevant question for me is -- Does it actually work???

Is there any easy way of telling whether the CTB-100 is actually "doing its job" -- short of searching my entire tape collection for one that plays "badly enough" for the CTB-100 to make a difference? I reckon I must have some like that -- or I wouldn't have considered buying the CTB-100 in the first place -- but finding such a tape anytime soon could be a "challenge", and I have a limited time frame for returning this ...

Here are my current (working!) resources:

-- one JVC SR-V10U VCR, with a second one supposedly on the way
-- one ATI 600 USB card supposedly on the way
-- one (Toshiba) VHS VCR
-- one (JVC) DVD player
-- a number of pre-recorded (presumably copy-protected?) S-VHS and VHS tapes
-- a number of home-recorded S-VHS and VHS tapes (that I'd rather not have to search through)

Thanks,
Kevin
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  #46  
05-22-2011, 05:03 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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The only freaking out my AVT-8710 does with the JVC OSD is the "checkboard" pattern seen in this thread: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681

The problem can be traced to how the video capture chip in the AVT-8710 and other TBCs handles "240p" video. It should also be noted that the glitch only happens with the S-Video input and not the composite input. The artifact also happens when you connect old game consoles that output 240p (like the Super Nintendo) to the AVT-8710 via S-video.
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  #47  
05-22-2011, 07:37 PM
newkt newkt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
The only freaking out my AVT-8710 does with the JVC OSD is the "checkboard" pattern seen in this thread: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/331681

The problem can be traced to how the video capture chip in the AVT-8710 and other TBCs handles "240p" video. It should also be noted that the glitch only happens with the S-Video input and not the composite input. The artifact also happens when you connect old game consoles that output 240p (like the Super Nintendo) to the AVT-8710 via S-video.
Well, after reading that entire thread posted above, I unplugged the S-Video input cable (to my CTB-100) and plugged in the composite input cable instead, and -- there was no noticeable difference ... The CTB-100 still freaked out -- in a variety of different ways -- with the OSD of the JVC SR-V10U, but it still seemed to have no effect -- either positive or negative -- on actual video playback (of a good S-VHS recording from 1989) ...

So, what I'm personally taking from that thread is this quote from lordsmurf:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
The JVC blue screen is full of signal errors -- pay it no attention.
It has no effect on the tapes.
And so, the question for me remains (as posted earlier) -- Is there any easy way of telling whether the CTB-100 is actually "doing its job"?

Thanks,
Kevin
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  #48  
05-22-2011, 09:53 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt;
And so, the question for me remains (as posted earlier) -- Is there any easy way of telling whether the CTB-100 is actually "doing its job"?
I know you are strapped for time before you have to decide to return it, but I can't think of any other way (at the moment) other than finding an unstable tape and trying to pass it to your capture card (I know you don't it yet) and see if you suffer from frame drops and unwanted "digital artifacts" - kind of like what you see with dropouts in a digital TV signal. Then connect the TBC and see if that corrects the problem. If you notice a stable video output without dropped frames, then you can assume it is doing its job. However, the TBC can still do its job and not remove jitter 100%. I had to switch VCR's to get one tape to play without jumping, but I couldn't have capped it without the CTB-100. You can also test on a TV as well.

Right now, testing with a clean recording isn't going to give you any insight as to whether or not its working. At least you know it isn't harming the picture, so thats a good sign.
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  #49  
05-23-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt View Post
The CTB-100 still freaked out -- in a variety of different ways -- with the OSD of the JVC SR-V10U, but it still seemed to have no effect -- either positive or negative -- on actual video playback (of a good S-VHS recording from 1989) ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
Right now, testing with a clean recording isn't going to give you any insight as to whether or not its working. At least you know it isn't harming the picture, so thats a good sign.
Well, I may have spoken too soon on that ... I sat down last night to watch (just watch) my excellent S-VHS recording from 1989 -- with the CTB-100 in the mix, to verify my earlier statement -- and I started seeing sporadic frozen frames, so I had to take out the CTB-100 in order to enjoy the show (a reunion concert by The Who) ...

The only flaw in the 2-hour playback was some very isolated "tearing" at the top of the screen once in a while, which I don't know whether the CTB-100 would -- or is supposed to -- fix ... Other than that, the playback looked and sounded very much like a broadcast or a DVD (with all SR-V10U features turned off, except for TBC/DNR) ...

So, is the sporadic freeze-framing by the CTB-100, when playing an excellent S-VHS recording, to be expected -- or is this a bad sign?

Kevin
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  #50  
05-23-2011, 05:30 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt
The only flaw in the 2-hour playback was some very isolated "tearing" at the top of the screen once in a while, which I don't know whether the CTB-100 would -- or is supposed to -- fix
It may or may not. In some cases it may even make it worse. Check out this thread for some tearing solutions: VHS tearing even WITH TBC and JVC SVHS player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt
I started seeing sporadic frozen frames, so I had to take out the CTB-100
I believe it is normal to occasionally see frozen frames or fields, but it shouldn't be often. On some sources I see this happen maybe once or twice in a two hour period and on other sources I don't see it at all.

However, I noticed last night that my CTB-100 actually made a source look worse when I was capturing an old 1981 home recording, which is seriously degraded. I stopped capping it until I can stabilize it better (might not be able to) and get the image adjustments just right, but I did do some raw tests. See clips below( no audio ):

NOTE: VCR's built-in "TBC" and DNR were disabled, except where labeled otherwise.

1. SR-V10U -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/1.SRV10U_No_TBC.mpg

Picture is unstable and you can see flickering from where the capture card choked on the signal.

2. SR-V10U -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/2.S...ith_CTB100.mpg

Connecting the CTB-100 made things 10x worse. Increased vertical jitter and frozen fields; virtually unwatchable.

3. SR-V10U ( Picture Stabalizer ON) -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB ( NO CTB-100 )
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/3.S..._No_CTB100.mpg

I took the CTB-100 out of the loop and tried using the VCR's picture stabilization feature. This reduced the vertical jumping a bit, but still "jitterbugged".

4. SR-V10U ( Built-in TBC/DNR ON) -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/4.S...ND_CTB100_.mpg

Put the CTB-100 back in the loop and turned on the VCR's built-in TBC/DNR. Fewer frozen fields and jitter than with no CTB-100, but still bad.

5. SR-V10U ( Built-in TBC/DNR OFF, Picture Stabilizer ON) -> CTB-100 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB
Direct link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30164492/5.S...bilization.mpg

I finally had to combine the CTB-100 with the SR-V10U's built-in picture stabilizer to get a semi-decent result. Still a few freeze issues, not far fewer than any of the previous methods.

Now I'm beginning to wonder if this is an issue with the CTB-100 or some other variable. VCR and cables have been ruled out. Tried a TV Wonder 600 PCIe and WinTV HVR-1600 and got the same results. The tape also plays fine on a regular CRT.

I know the CTB-100 has helped in the past, so maybe this tape is just beyond the CTB-100's capabilities?


Attached Files
File Type: rar 1.SRV10U_No_TBC.part1.rar (15.00 MB, 13 downloads)
File Type: rar 1.SRV10U_No_TBC.part2.rar (396.2 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: rar 2.SRV10U_With_CTB100.part1.rar (15.00 MB, 13 downloads)
File Type: rar 2.SRV10U_With_CTB100.part2.rar (4.33 MB, 9 downloads)
File Type: rar 3.SRV10U__PicStabilizer_ON_No_CTB100.part1.rar (15.00 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: rar 3.SRV10U__PicStabilizer_ON_No_CTB100.part2.rar (2.05 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: rar 4.SRV10U_WithDNR-TBC_AND_CTB100_.part1.rar (15.00 MB, 7 downloads)
File Type: rar 4.SRV10U_WithDNR-TBC_AND_CTB100_.part2.rar (1.01 MB, 8 downloads)
File Type: rar 5.SRV10U_With_CTB100_AND_PICStabilization.part1.rar (15.00 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: rar 5.SRV10U_With_CTB100_AND_PICStabilization.part2.rar (1.40 MB, 5 downloads)
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  #51  
05-24-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I believe it is normal to occasionally see frozen frames or fields, but it shouldn't be often. On some sources I see this happen maybe once or twice in a two hour period and on other sources I don't see it at all.
Well, I tried to watch the same good (probably not "excellent") 1989 S-VHS recording of The Who -- once again, with the CTB-100 in the loop -- and after just 10 minutes or so, I had to take out the CTB-100 again in order to maintain my sanity ... It was driving me nuts to see multiple frozen frames/fields per minute while I was trying to enjoy a 2-hour concert ... (BTW, my ATI TV Wonder 600 USB card should be arriving today) ...

So, what do you think (Tuco)? Should I just (try to!) return/exchange the CTB-100 now, or is there some other course of action you'd recommend?

Thanks,
Kevin
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  #52  
05-24-2011, 04:14 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Originally Posted by newkt View Post
So, what do you think (Tuco)? Should I just (try to!) return/exchange the CTB-100 now, or is there some other course of action you'd recommend?
That's a really hard question for me to answer because we are only talking about one tape here and one VCR; there could be other variables at play. If you have your doubts, and it sounds like you do, about whether it is working properly or not and your running out of return time, then request a refund and hold on to the money for when you have your capture setup ready and at least another VCR to test with. Then, you can use that money later to buy another TBC and try again. Or if you don't mind possibly losing( if you determine later that your TBC is in fact defective ) some money you can try negotiating a partial refund. However, your unit came brand new and from a retailer who is basically running shop on eBay, so I have a feeling he will want the unit back.

My CTB-100 I know helps on some sources and makes others worse, so until I have other TBCs to compare it to I am going to withhold judgement on this unit. I do know one thing for certain: it works better than the unit from B&H that I had previously.

These TBC's aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so you can't really lose out (except for shipping costs) if you decide to return it.

Hope that helps!

Last edited by Tuco; 05-24-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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  #53  
05-24-2011, 04:43 PM
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I'm in process of doing 3 things right now:
- captures of a "normal" AVT-8710 that works fine, including the JVC blue screen
- scanning the Elite Video BVP-4 Plus proc amp manual
- writing the advanced ATI 600 USB capture guide

A lot of it was done last week, but still not 100% on any of the three as of yet.
Trying to get that done this week.

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  #54  
05-24-2011, 05:01 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Your CTB-100 doesn't seem to be working right. It looks like the frame buffer is screwed up somehow, holding onto a field instead of updating it with new video. I had a similar tape (a dub of a home video recorded in 1984), and had zero issues with the AVT-8710 I have. I have NEVER seen the AVT-8710 freeze the last "good" frame of video when it encounters a bad dropout in the tape, it always goes to the color bars (on VCRs that don't have bluescreens, its annoying to see those bars flicker on the screen of the final product, but I can edit it out). I would be interested to see the insides of these units, its likely newer runs have different chips vs. the "good and working" old ones. High res photos of the inside of the AVT-8710 are up on this board if you want to compare.

In terms of actual horizontal jitter correction, the CTB-100/AVT-8710 is fairly weak, if you noticed the Digipure TBC does a MUCH better job of fixing those errors. It does correct some of the vertical jumping that you are seeing with the stabilizer off. The most important thing about the CTB-100 is that it provides a clean and continuous video signal for the video capture card to lock onto so that it doesn't drop frames.
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  #55  
05-24-2011, 05:11 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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For reference, these are the chips that power my circa 2004 AVT-8710

Video input/digitizer (IC1): Phillips SAA7114H
Video output(IC5): Phillips SAA7129H
ROM? (IC6): Labelled LTB-100 V2.0 A0411

There is also a jumper on the board labelled INT/EXT... it should be jumped for INT. I'm guessing this is for the genlock option on higher end models, INT likely references "internal clock".
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  #56  
05-24-2011, 05:36 PM
newkt newkt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
That's a really hard question for me to answer because we are only talking about one tape here and one VCR; there could be other variables at play. If you have your doubts, and it sounds like you do, about whether it is working properly or not and your running out of return time, then request a refund and hold on to the money for when you have your capture setup ready and at least another VCR to test with. Then, you can use that money later to buy another TBC and try again. Or if you don't mind possibly losing( if you determine later that your TBC is in fact defective ) some money you can try negotiating a partial refund. However, your unit came brand new and from a retailer who is basically running shop on eBay, so I have a feeling he will want the unit back.

My CTB-100 I know helps on some sources and makes others worse, so until I have other TBCs to compare it to I am going to withhold judgement on this unit. I do know one thing for certain: it works better than the unit from B&H that I had previously.

These TBC's aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so you can't really lose out (except for shipping costs) if you decide to return it.

Hope that helps!
Yes, it does help ... Thanks, Tuco ...

I think I still have more than a week to decide about my CTB-100, and I did just get my ATI 600 USB card today -- and therein lies another story for the forum (but not just yet!) -- and I do have several more VCR's on the way (plus a bid on another one) ...

So I think I'll just wait a bit on returning it, while I keep experimenting with other tapes, with other VCR's, and with trying to actually capture video instead of just watch it ...

Kevin

P.S. NJRoadfan, I think your latest posts here were probably meant for Tuco, but do they also apply to the frequent "freeze-frame" situation with my CTB-100? Thanks!
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  #57  
05-24-2011, 06:05 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newkt View Post
P.S. NJRoadfan, I think your latest posts here were probably meant for Tuco, but do they also apply to the frequent "freeze-frame" situation with my CTB-100? Thanks!
Yes, I viewed your sample clips. Assuming you see similar problems directly connected to a TV, your unit seems to have some sort of frame buffer (I guess you could call it freeze-field?) problem with it. One way to test these units is to feed them 100% perfect video, use the S-video output from a cable box or ATSC tuner. If the CTB-100 still has problems with 100% perfect NTSC video, then its faulty.
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  #58  
05-24-2011, 06:13 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Thanks NJRoadfan! I'll crack open my CTB-100 later tonight and compare the chips along with photos.
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  #59  
05-24-2011, 06:29 PM
newkt newkt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Yes, I viewed your sample clips. Assuming you see similar problems directly connected to a TV, your unit seems to have some sort of frame buffer (I guess you could call it freeze-field?) problem with it. One way to test these units is to feed them 100% perfect video, use the S-video output from a cable box or ATSC tuner. If the CTB-100 still has problems with 100% perfect NTSC video, then its faulty.
Actually, those were Tuco's sample clips -- I'm the one who had frequent "freeze-field" problems with my CTB-100 directly connected to a TV ...

But thanks for the ideas there! It sounds like they would also apply to my situation ...

Kevin
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  #60  
05-24-2011, 09:32 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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I just cracked open my CTB-100 and here is what I found ( sorry, I haven't taken pictures yet ):

1. IC1: Phillips SAA7114H ( no difference )
2. IC5: Phillips SAA7129AH ( Your's: SAA7129H )
3. IC6: LTB101 v2.1 S1101 ( Your's: LTB-100 V2.0 A0411 )

As for the video output circuit, did you mean to say SAA7129AH or SAA7129H (no A )? Just checking in case it was a typo.

I haven't compared mine to the high-res photos of the AVT-8710 on this forum yet due to lack of time, but I'll compare them tomorrow. I just wanted to throw this out there for now.

Thanks again,
Dave

Last edited by Tuco; 05-24-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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