Quantcast Is my new AVT-8710 DOA? (screenshots/clips of error) - digitalFAQ Forum
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04-12-2011, 05:15 PM
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Thread update!

A problem with AVT-8710 models has been confirmed by Site Staff on page 6. We have video clips proving the problems, and thanks to input from NJRoadfan, we believe we know exactly which chip on the mainboard is malfunctioning. Read through the first 6 pages to understand what is happening, how to see if your TBC has the flaw, and solutions on how to initiate returns (especially if you're dealing with an idiot eBay seller, as opposed to a reliable merchant like B&H).

Note: I only made this update because a few people on other sites, and even this site, have been crying lately that this thread is "too long" (boo hoo). I've seen threads on forums that were well into dozens or hundreds of pages long, so I can't say I agree with the idea that 6 pages is "too long". Stop being lazy. Video is not a profession or hobby for anybody that can't take time to read.

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Ok, first of all this site is awesome and I will be donating shortly...

My gear: JVC 9911> AVT-8710 > Elite BVP-4 Plus > Pinnacle 510 USB > i5 750 @ 3ghz, 16gb ram, 4TB raid yadda yadda. All connections are S-Vid.

All of the video gear *except* the pinnacle was purchased after MANY hours of reading this and a few other sites. the pinnacle was purchased by a family member long before this project go as serious as I am now... I hope it wont be a deal breaker!

The AVT-8710 just arrived in the mail and I'm worried its DOA. I'm getting horrible ghosting and what looks like interlacing lines or power supply noise all the time. What do you think of these screen shots (from pinnacle):

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and this from vdub:

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and these without the AVT-9710 inline (pinnacle, then Vdub)

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(all split lines are from BVP... it seems i need to adjust the bleed on this unit)

I tried putting the BVP and AVT on their own outlet and results were the same. The S-vid cables are generic cables out of DirecTV setup boxes. I have shielded/gold plated cables en-route from monoprice.com

Very discouraging to say the least.

I passed over a used TBC-1000 for the same price as the AVT-8710 just because of the mixed info I got from both on this website. I can still get a TBC-1000 for the same price as the AVT-8710 for the next day or two if I want.

Please help1


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  #2  
04-13-2011, 10:57 AM
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Try this:
  1. JVC 9911> TV set
  2. JVC 9911> AVT-8710 > TV set
  3. JVC 9911> Elite BVP-4 Plus > TV set
  4. JVC 9911> AVT-8710 > Elite BVP-4 Plus > TV set
  5. JVC 9911> Elite BVP-4 Plus > AVT-8710 > TV set
... be sure to test all the wires, rotating them around in the #1 and #2 configurations. There is a such thing as bad cables. I throw away coax RG56, RG6, composite, component, s-video and even HDMI cables every year, it seems. That includes Monster cables, too. (Not that the cables only last a year -- I've had some for more than a decade -- but each year I inevitably run across some that have gone bad.)

Also consider testing composite connections. All composite! Don't mix composite/s-video in a workflow, as there can be problems. (The Elite BVP4+ has a known luminance issue, for example, when inputting one, and outputting the other.)

The Pinnacle 510 USB is a somewhat junky little box, so let's set it aside for testing the other known-good gear. Let's remove the computer, too, for the moment. See if your other devices all look good, passing signals directly to a TV.

Then we can come back to pros and cons of the Pinnacle 510 USB box.

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  #3  
04-13-2011, 02:59 PM
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while waiting for your reply I did more testing on my own.

tested all Svid cables with JVC 9911 > 510 USB > PC

all cables yielded same result - good clean images

so I tried:

JVC 9911 > AVT-8710 > USB 500 > PC
JVC 9911 > AVT-8710 > BVP-4 plus > USB 500 > PC

on both configurations, if I load a fairly good tape, everything looks fine. when I load a 'well worn' tape THAT is when the AVT-8710 craps out. once the bad tape starts dropping frames the AVT-8710 goes into 'ghost mode' and never recovers. EVERYTHING gets the ghost effect, including VCR menus and different tapes. Only way to get the unit to return to normal is to unplug, wait and plug back in.

Kind of ironic that the one function the AVT-8710 should perform causes it to take a dump.

I tried disabling ALL JVC 9911 functions (TBC, R3 etc) and putting the deck in Edit mode... With this configuration, the AVT-8710 ghosted in the same spots, just a few frames later.

This is not heat related either. The AVT-8710 isnt getting hot and it will ghost even if its cold/first turned on.

I'm still thinking RMA or see if I can still get the TBC-1000...
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04-13-2011, 03:06 PM
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Skip the PC --- go to a TV. Let's remove the PC variable entirely.

The DataVideo TBC-1000 is not a better TBC. Not really. It's not without quirks of its own.
As the saying goes, 'the grass is always greener'.

What does "well worn" mean for the tape -- what sort of errors?

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  #5  
04-13-2011, 06:59 PM
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looks like some flagging and other time errors.

screen shots were pulled with JVC 9911 in edit mode, all enhancements off





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and the only tv i have in the house with svid on it is on a wall mount in my master bathroom... and its a CHEAP lcd tv that has crappy output on DVD's much less a VCR. this less then ideal for your desired test.

i take it you are concerned the pinnacle box is introducing its own time errors? IMO no matter what issues the capture device may or may not have, that wont effect the AVT-8710 going kaput.


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  #6  
04-13-2011, 08:24 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Looks like a bad cable in the mix, you should have ZERO ghosting on the VCR's menus if you directly connected it to the capture card. The AVT-8710 looks faulty too. Here is what my menus looks like through the AVT-8710 (no proc amp in the chain). Note that its nice and sharp, no ghosting at all.



Also, are the lines where the filtering from the proc-amp ends supposed to be wavy?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg JVC menu.jpg (49.5 KB, 768 downloads)
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  #7  
04-13-2011, 09:10 PM
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The proc amp is an ebay purchase... I was concerned with that as well. New cables should be in tomorrow. I might have to bring the deck and proc amp up to the bathtub (master bath tv) to see if the lines still appear out of whack... I believe the admin is thinking the pinnacle box is adding to the shift. Gonna be a pita but its looking like a necessity.

I wonder how long B&H allows for returns ...
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  #8  
04-14-2011, 12:50 AM
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I've never seen a wavy-lined BVP Plus proc amp. However, it may not be of any concern, if everything else seems to work. It's worth removing from the chain, for troubleshooting. Note that there are BVP adjustment guides on this site, in the forum. Search for them. The BVP opens up, and has adjustment screws inside.

The Pinnacle could be adding distortions, because it's faulty.

The only way to troubleshoot is to remove variables one by one. And removing the computer and capture card is a good start. Go directly to a television, VCR to TV. Then add in the TBC, then the proc amp, etc. See when problems start to happen.

The VCR directly into the capture card should not be anything but clean and clear.

___________

NOTE: B&H is closing for the Jewish holidays from April 18 (this Monday) to April 27. So you'd have to RMA by Friday morning or Sunday. B&H is closed Friday afternoon and Saturday because of the Jewish Sabbath. And then return during the coming week. You won't have a new one until the end of the month or next month. That's one of the downsides to using B&H -- they close too much. (I'm all for freedom of religion, but at some point, it gets to be semi-ridiculous, I think. A professional store that closes so much? Including the online store!? Not very professional to me. A nuisance, really.)

Unfortunately, they're the ONLY reliable source for this specific TBC. I would not buy it anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by from a 2007 nysun.com article
On Friday afternoons and Saturdays, when B&H is closed — the owner, Herman Schreiber, and many of the store's employees are observant Satmar Jews, who do not work on Shabbat or half a dozen Jewish holidays throughout the year — there is little to attract anyone to the area.
Like the store, the Web site, bhphotovideo.com, is closed for business on Jewish holidays and Shabbat.
Realistically, those "half dozen" holidays equate to quite a few days. In all, B&H is closed for at least a few months per year, cumulatively.
Buy from Amazon when you can, buy from B&H when you must.

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  #9  
04-14-2011, 07:00 AM
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SO, cables *should* be arriving later today, however I did decide to do some testing before work...

added equipment to the mix: Konka LCD tv and magnavox mwd 200 ga dvd player. both are fairly crappy but both "feature s-video" and composite connections... ONLY. i've had the MWD hooked to my samsung 7 series via composite and it looked ok so I guess I shouldnt bash it too hard.

so testing:

one thing i did notice is that the video stream that is displayed in the previews for both vdub and pinnacle studio look worse then what the 510 usb actually captures. so all screen shots were lifted from media player.

MWD > 510 USB > vdub > huffyuv > media player



MWD > 510 USB > pinnacle studio (DV mode) > media player



cables *could* still be an issue, but I have scrounged my boxes and came up with 5 generic svid cables and they all had this same result.

I think the 510-usb is looking like a good garage sale candidate... lordsmurf, what is the usb stick you always recommend? I cant remember right now. GRRR more money to spend.

second test: MWD (same original copy shrek 2)> AVT-8710 > Konka
...stupid AVT was tripping all over itself. the image was blurring, ghosting, freezing bah bah bah.

third test: using a purchased copy of anaconda, why anaconda? I dont think it was ever actually watched, for obvious reasons... HA!
9911 > Konka image was good and as clean as can be expected from konka
9911 > AVT-8710 > konka image was the same or worse as dvd source.

AVT-8710 is going back for RMA IMMEDIATELY. One thing that REALLY freaks it out is the menu functions for both the MWD and 9911. on the 9911 when you first hit menu, the first option is automatically highlighted red. if you move down one, the original option still appears selected (ghosted) and the second option is also selected but is a lighter shade then before. if scroll back up, it looks normal again (no ghosting of second selection, first selection is bright red not washed out).

Once cables arrive I will re-test MWD > 510 USB just for due diligence but i'm not going to hold my breath.

thanks for the help so far.

which would you pick?
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  #10  
04-14-2011, 08:44 PM
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For a new external capture card?
The ATI 600 USB stick: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B0035BJGYW

Excellent card for AVI capturing (PAL or NTSC), or MPEG-2 capturing (NTSC only).

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  #11  
04-14-2011, 09:12 PM
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thanks.... thats what I thought. ebay for $30. btw that matrox I mentioned is on ebay right now too if anyone is interested.

new AVT-8710 will be here monday.
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  #12  
04-15-2011, 10:17 AM
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Hopefully your eBay purchase came with everything that's needed. Most of what I see is just the stick -- it's missing the bundle cables required for s-video/composite + audio inputs. And then if you wanted to use it as a PVR, it needs to come with the remote and antenna. Software manuals and driver/software discs wouldn't hurt, either.

There are some things that eBay just isn't great at. Complete used gear is one of them.

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  #13  
04-15-2011, 11:11 AM
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ATI-TV-Wonder-HD...item45fa019f18

should be good as long as the unit is not DOA

for those interested, this is the matrox I found:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

being that these are usually pricey it is definitely a unit that will need bid sniped.
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  #14  
04-15-2011, 11:18 AM
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Yeah, that looks like a winner for the ATI.

Matrox probably fine, too, if you need/want a new card.

I'm in the market for another TBC
--- or alternative device that is both transparent AND provides frame sync, and without being rack mount sized ---
but that's it.
Currently eying some DV cameras, watching Craigslist and eBay for TBCs.
Likely will end up just buying an AVT-8710 from B&H, however.

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  #15  
04-15-2011, 04:53 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
I'm in the market for another TBC
--- or alternative device that is both transparent AND provides frame sync, and without being rack mount sized ---
but that's it.
Doesn't a full frame TBC inherently supply frame sync? Or are you referring to a TBC that can be genlocked to an external clock? If so, Cypress sells the CTB-100G which I would presume is a CTB-100 with a genlock add-on board. There is an extra header on my AVT-8710's PCB that it likely plugs into.
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  #16  
04-15-2011, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
Doesn't a full frame TBC inherently supply frame sync?
No, it doesn't have to.
Many ancient rack mount TBCs, for example, don't output constant sync, relying on external genlock in the rack. A lot of "stabilizers" could be considered TBCs (and some claim to be), because they incorporate some degree or TBC-like functionality. But these don't necessarily maintain constant sync.

davideck of VH wrote this several years ago:
Quote:
The following is a brief description of what a typical TBC does; the design of any specific TBC may differ in detail, but the fundamental operation remains the same. Please feel free to embellish, correct, etc.

A TBC has three major sections; input processing, memory, and output processing.

Consider the output processing section first. A stable reference clock is used to synthesize a "Black Burst" Sync reference made up of the Vertical Sync, the Horizontal Sync, and the Chroma Burst elements. This clock is either a free running crystal oscillator, or a Phase Locked Loop (PLL) that is locked to an external "Gen Lock" input.

The actual Video samples stored in memory are read using the reference clock, converted to analog, and added to the Black Burst Sync reference, creating the Video Output signal.

If the Black Burst Sync Reference remains valid at all times, then the TBC also provides "Frame Synchronization". A TBC/Frame Synchronizer will continue to provide a valid Black Burst Sync Reference output even when the Video Input drops out, becomes discontinuous (like when playing through a gap between recordings) or is removed completely. This behavior is desireable and eliminates many audio/video skew problems when capturing.

Another function provided by the output processing section of some TBCs is Vertical Interval Blanking. This function substitutes blank (black) lines for the horizontal lines in the non-picture area at the top of each field that may contain information such as closed caption and copy protection. Any information that existed on these lines at the Video Input is eliminated at the Video Output.

Now consider the memory section. It might be a full frame, or just several lines, but in both cases the memory serves as a FIFO to allow the timing characteristics of the Video output to be distinct from that of the Video input. Think of the memory as a funnel. Video input samples (water) can be added in variable amounts at various times while the output stream remains constant. As long as the memory is not overfilled or emptied, its output rate remains stable.

If only several lines of memory exist, then the Video input timing must be slaved to the Video output timing. Line TBCs often have an "Advance Reference" output to be fed to a VCR's Gen Lock or Reference input for this purpose. This adjusts the VCR Video output timing (TBC Video input timing) to keep the TBC's memory approximately half full. Consumer VCRs do not provide this connection.

If a full frame of memory exists, then the Video input timing can be completely independent and freely drift with respect to the Video output timing. An occasional image disturbance will be created whenever the input Vertical Sync frame timing drifts through the output Vertical Sync frame timing (as a Frame is lost or gained), but the need to slave the Video input timing to the Video output is eliminated.

Finally, consider the input processing section. In order to provide Video samples in memory that can be added to a stable Black Burst Sync reference, the input processing must remove the timing instability and store the Video input as stable Video samples. This requires a sophisticated PLL to synthesize a write clock with the same timing instabilities as the Video input itself. By digitizing the unstable Video input with a clock that is unstable in "identical" fashion, the instabilites are removed during the Analog to Digital conversion process. These stable Video samples are then written into memory.

The characteristics of the write clock sythesis determines the actual timebase correction capabilities. Different TBCs perform differently. Generating a write clock that is unstable in "identical" fashion to the Video input is a theoretical goal but a practical limitation. Some TBCs generate write clocks that are more closely "identical" than other TBCs. Some TBCs eliminate timebase instability to within nanoseconds such that even chroma phase (purity) errors are eliminated. Other TBCs may only eliminate more significant errors like tearing at the top of the picture and luminance jitter. Some TBC/Frame Synchronizers provide Frame Synchronization but little if any actual timebase correction.

As examples;

The DataVideo External TBCs provide Frame Synchronization and Vertical Interval Blanking.

A typical DVD Recorder has an internal TBC/Frame Synchronizer that provides Frame Synchronization but does not provide Vertical Interval Blanking.

The TBC/DNR Digipure system internal to some JVC VCRs does an excellent job of timebase correction, but it does not provide Frame Synchronization or Vertical Interval Blanking. If the video off tape is lost or discontinuous, then the Black Burst Sync reference output will also be missing or discontinuous. This is why a DataVideo TBC or a DVD Recorder is often advantageous in addition to using the JVC TBC/DNR when capturing.
And that's not a flawless definition either. But it's a good start. He and I have gone in circles for years now, trying to define what a TBC is. I more or less gave up, preferring to define by example, instead of defining by technical specs or jargon.

That's where this came from: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes

You'll notice that the DataVideo TBCs specifically state "TBC / Frame Synchronizer" on the unit, while the TVOne AVT-8710 mentions frame sync in documentation. Furthermore, both of those were specifically designed for consumer and professional "consumer offspring" (i.e., S-VHS) type formats, and understanding digital conversion was a primary market power. The DataVideo books blatantly state this on the cover of the manuals, by way of format support logos.

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  #17  
04-16-2011, 07:15 AM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Newby, I'm having the same problem with my AVT-8710 as well. Just received it a few days ago from B&H and I've tried new cables, different power strips, different TVs (2 CRTs and 2 LCD HDTVs). No dice. And that was without any computer equipment or procAmps in the middle.

I also experienced the same menu effect you mentioned. Sometimes I could even see a "line-ghosted" image of the previous menu once I went back to the main menu. And whenever I unplugged the unit and plugged it back in, the menu usually looked either worse from the start or somewhat normal until I navigated the function menu and it was just a red mess.

There was also an issue where it would drop back to the color bars for a while when playing back certain tapes. But that could be a tape/vcr issue; not sure.

Either way, I'm going to RMA mine today or Sunday. I know I won't get an exchange until maybe May, but I've got a new TBC-1000 on the way, so we'll see how that works.

I hope the issue isn't B&H getting a faulty batch.
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04-16-2011, 07:25 AM
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In order to get my rma out before their holiday I actually didn't do an rma... I bought a second unit and asked for a refund for the original. They didn't charge shipping for return or new unit. I might not get my money back until after their break but at least I *might* get a functional unit on monday. Ill keep you posted.

-- merged --

This is BS. Second unit arrived today and same thing. You guys have any ideas?
I wish I would have written down the serial number from the last unit. this one is 2 238406 014057
B&H isnt open until the 27th. I'm not impressed.
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  #19  
04-19-2011, 08:54 AM
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I have a few alternatives for the AVT-8710. I'll get back to you soon on this, with some suggestions.
It sounds like B&H has a bad shipment. They really need to figure that out, and soon.

As far as the ATI 600 USB in Windows 7 -- there are workarounds to make it work. Give me several days to put that together, and then test it here locally with my 600 and a Windows 7 64 system.

You're just not having very good luck, it seems.

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04-19-2011, 09:22 AM
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I wonder if the ebay version is of a different batch...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Video-Time-Base-...item518ce31cc7

Quote:
Originally Posted by admin View Post
I have a few alternatives for the AVT-8710. I'll get back to you soon on this, with some suggestions.
It sounds like B&H has a bad shipment. They really need to figure that out, and soon.

As far as the ATI 600 USB in Windows 7 -- there are workarounds to make it work. Give me several days to put that together, and then test it here locally with my 600 and a Windows 7 64 system.

You're just not having very good luck, it seems.
no kidding. I've got over 100 tapes to get archived that I know of... I'm thinking 1/3 to 1/2 of which were recorded on EP! I've spent a lot of money and have a lot to do. That is making me anxious to get cracking and be able to show some results!

if the workarounds entail running xp emulation mode, tell me now and i'll save you some time because I HATE having to do that crap. I'll just sell this one and find something else in that case.
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