Lots of random noise - VCR or tape problem?

[hysteriah]

I have this very annoying problem on most of my tapes. When I play them, the picture goes totally crazy when hitting a certain spot on the tape. The picture goes totally crazy with LOTS of noise for a few Seconds, Then it Returns back to normal and play back fine for some time untill hitting a new spot with the same problem. If I rewind the tape and play the same part once again, the image is usually fine the next time I play it. On a few occations I have to play the same part several times to make the VCR play it fine. See the attached videoclips of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd time I play the same part of the tape. In this example it's even worse the 2nd time it was played.

I have 3 VCR's (1 JVC and 2 Panasonic's) and the problem is present on all of them... but it seems to happen more frequently on the Panasonic's than the JVC, but it's present on all of them.

What's causing this? Is it bad tape? Worn tape? Dirty tape? Bad VCR? Bad pinch roller? Worn heads?
Any suggestions on what it is and how to avoid it?

PS: I have a strong suspicion that my tapes are "dirty" because of nicotine coating from cigarette smoking but I'm not sure if that's what's causing it. If so, is there a way to clean the tapes?

[lordsmurf]

My initial guess would be the heads. Not dirty heads, but damaged heads.

But if you insist that's not it, then a coating of nicotine could indeed be it. However, is the current environment also smoke free? If not, then smoke attaching to heads is still more likely than smoke attaching to tape. The latter could happen, but not as much as the first.

[hysteriah]

Thank you so much, lordsmurf for your input on this subject. I'm so greatful!

Yes, my initial guess was also the videoheads... but I find it very strange that it occurs on 3 different VCR's... and all these VCR's seems to play back fine tapes of good condition.

Yes, the current environment now is smoke free, and I've cleaned the videoheads So I belive it's the tapes that is very problematic, even though I'm not 100% sure. I belive the tapes are very worn because of heavy use, recorded over and over again a whole bunch of times, using low quality 2-head mono VCR's in the early 90's. I used them for recording musicvideos from musictelevision channels. Had the tapes standing on "pause" position in the VCR, ready to start recording immediately when hitting the record button when a new video showed up. I guess there is spots all over these tapes where the drum was standing spinning on that specific spot for a very long time. May it be when the VCR hits some of these spots now that makes the picture goes crazy?

Now, the last 20 years they were stored for a long time in my moms appartment where there was lots of smoking. Nicotin coating all over the place so I guess it's nicotine on my tapes also. After that, they were stored in a moist basement for some years.

I realise that my tapes are in horrible condition. I just wish there was something I could do to make them play better, cos this is extremely annoying.

[Quasipal]

These faults are called 'head clogs' where either loose oxide (or cigarette residue in this case) momentarily blocks the head gap in the spinning video head. You can see the clog 'clear' as the picture sort of jumps back into clarity after the clog has cleared. Sometimes the tape is so dirty it clogs the heads instantly and no picture is shown - and I have to get the deck apart and clean the dirt off. Now in your instance what I would do is use a VCR with large radius head tips that are less likely to pick up dirt as they pass. The VCR's you have are multi-head decks which tend to have smaller radius head chips. This is where an old 2 head mono machine may do better than even the top S-VHS decks. I have two Ferguson Videostar VCR's (old JVC models sold under licence) for such tapes. Remember the NV-HS1000 has 5 individual heads on the drum so the tape is under more stress when playing.

So what to do? Well if you are having fun with VCR's and your old tapes then an old 2 head VCR of good quality is worthwhile addition and I use mine as much as my HS1000 and FS200 Super VHS models. I use an 3V55 and FV21 which both cost me £5 each in good order.

This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ5FCjYvq5k clip was from a tape that was repeatedly clogging on my better decks but you can see the clogs on the Ferguson Videostar I used for this upload are very small.

[hysteriah]

Thank you very much for very usefull information, Quasipal!

Okey, I thought it was required to use a VCR with built in TBC???
I do have an old Panasonic NV-J40 3 head VCR that I think is in pretty good condition. I don't know anything about it other that the last owner told me it was very little used. Me myself haven't even tried it so don't even know if it's working properly but maybe it is time to test it now? Do you know anything about it and think it's a good unit for this case?

I also have one Hitachi MX805E and a JVC HR-J248, but I think they are pretty worn.

Your video on youtube looks excellent by the way

THANKS A LOT!

[Quasipal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hysteriah

Thank you very much for very usefull information, Quasipal!

Okey, I thought it was required to use a VCR with built in TBC???
I do have an old Panasonic NV-J40 3 head VCR that I think is in pretty good condition. I don't know anything about it other that the last owner told me it was very little used. Me myself haven't even tried it so don't even know if it's working properly but maybe it is time to test it now? Do you know anything about it and think it's a good unit for this case?

I also have one Hitachi MX805E and a JVC HR-J248, but I think they are pretty worn.

Your video on youtube looks excellent by the way

THANKS A LOT!

Well TBC is nice but not essential - anyway some slight jitter is better than a broken up image. I know the J40 - it was a revised version of the very popular J35. They are good players from about 1992 but when the power supply capacitors fail you get all sorts of funny noises - hopefully yours will be OK. Well, give it a try - but again, make sure the tape path is clean and the roller not shiny.

Honestly, with VHS there is rarely one perfect solution - and sometimes not even that. I have just been going through some old VHS tapes - some from 1980! That I needed older decks to play these to a level I am happy with sounds unusual but the tape handling and mechanics of these old VCR's is very secure with metal tape balance rollers and a big pinch roller. This 1980 recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f_de3ZdDzM was done on my 2 head 1985 3V55 machine with sharpness to minimum due to noise and grain. I do think you may get better results with the J40...less heads. Keep us posted.

[hysteriah]

Okey, I'll give the J40 a try and keep you updated

Just one more question: This 'head clog' problem as you describe it. Can it permanently damage the videoheads or other parts in my VCR in any way?

[Quasipal]

Head clogging is not wearing or damaging to the VCR as such but any cigarette contaminants being left behind may do. Do the tapes smell smoky? A few plays will be harmless I'm sure but give the tape path a careful clean when you are done.

[hysteriah]

Okey. I can't really smell any smoke from them... but I'm gonna be careful. Don't wanna damage any of my hi-q VCR's

Well. I gave the J40 a quick try right now, but it doesn't work at all. The sound is okey but the picture is just noise. Gonna open it tomorrow and take a look and clean it... but it's probably the capacitors.

But I hooked up the Hitachi MX805 and it gave surprisingly good picture on one of these tapes that I tried now. I think maybe this VCR is the one I have that is most similar to the VCR I used when recording these tapes back in the 90's, it was a Philips VCR. I'm using a Philips Remote Control on this Hitachi VCR, so I guess Philips and Hitachi are related in a way?

Gonna digitize one tape with it now and see if the problem with head cloging is gone ;-)
THANKS!

-- merged --

Okey. I've digitized one of my worst tapes with the Hitachi MX805E VCR now and there's no significant 'head clogs' here. So all your advices, Quasipal seems perfectly right. Thank you very much :-)

The picture and sound quality is better than I expected from a 2 head mono VCR, but I must admit that I miss the nice, stable and clear picture from my Hi-Q VCR's with built in TBC and/or DNR.

So that leads me to a few more questions: Is it a good idea to copy these tapes from the Hitachi VCR over to a high quality S-VHS tape and digitize that tape with one of the higher quality VCR's with the TBC/NR enabled? It will take more time but time isn't a big issue for me. If it will improve the quality, I think it's worth it. ...or will the extra copying over to another tape just degrade the quality to much that the end result will be worse than digitizing straight from the Hitachi VCR anyway? If so, is there a combination of software filters that can do pretty much the same job to the footage straight from my Hitachi as using the TBC/NR on the higher quality VCR's?

[sanlyn]

The same line and frame sync errors that are on the non-tbc recording will still be there when played on your better player, and quality will be no better and could be slightly worse. It will definitley be worse if duped to another player, regardless of the other player's qualities. If you have to use a VCR that has no built-in tbc, the fix is a DVD recorder used as a pass-thru device (not used as a recorder) to take advantage of the DVD recorder's built-in sync circuitry. Not all DVD recorders can be used as pass-thru devices with tbc capability. The most popular are Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15's and Toshiba high-end recorders in the RD-X series from the early 2000's. Newer models are practically worthless for this function.

The advantage of a pass-thru device is that it doesn't tie you down to a single tbc-equipped player if that player can't be used. While these pass-thru circuits are not quite as powerful as those in a high-end tbc/VCR, they are pretty effective and most have good y/c filters to clean up composite input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hysteriah

is there a combination of software filters that can do pretty much the same job to the footage straight from my Hitachi as using the TBC/NR on the higher quality VCR's?

Sorry, but no.

[hysteriah]

Thanks a lot, Sanlyn!

Okey, and using a DVD recorder as a pass-thru device like that is required in addition to an external TBC like the DataVideo TBC-1000, right? Or is the DataVIdeo TBC-1000 pretty much the same thing?

I belive the Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15's and Toshiba RD-X that you suggests are all NTSC models? Will they work on PAL system? ...or do you know any good PAL models?

[sanlyn]

External TBC's like the AVT-8710 and TBC-1000 are not the same kind of tbc's as line-level types in VCR's and the older DVD recorders. The two types perform different functions. However, DVD pass-thru models do have some degree of both types of correction -- not the best, but good enough at the frame sync level to defeat most flavors of copy protection on retail VHS tapes when used for pass-thru.

The models mentioned are NTSC machines, but PAL equivalents were made at about the same time. I don't recall their model numbers, but they were similar to those for NTSC. Any model made after 2005 is not likely to be able to work as a pass-thru unit, and not all brands can be used this way.

[sanlyn]

I just browsed eBay.UK and found PAL versions of DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15 recorders, which handle NTSC and PAL as well. I saw no Toshiba RD-SX series, but they were rather pricey units that are now hard to find anyway. For any of these machines you need a remote access internal menus. If you get a Panasonic, note that for most DMR's the tbc is active only on Line Input #1.

[hysteriah]

Okey. Thank you very much for very usefull information, Sanlyn!
I appreciate it A LOT and will keep my eyes open and see if one of those units shows up around here where I live ;-)

Just a little update:
I did an Experiment on one of my worst tapes with most errors. I tried cleaning the tape using this method (both sides of the tape): http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-Tape-Cleaner/
Played it back in my regular Panasonic NV-HS960 VCR. Before the cleaning, this tape had more than 20 head clog errors the first 30 minutes of the tape. After the cleaning, it was reduced to 5 small ones.

I think if I clean the tapes like this (maybe create a cleaning machine out of my defective Panasonic NV-J40) and clean my VCR carefully between every tape I play, I think I might use my Panasonic NV-HS960 on these tapes.

But so frequently cleaning of the VCR may damage the heads in the long run?

[Quasipal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hysteriah

Okey. Thank you very much for very usefull information, Sanlyn!
I appreciate it A LOT and will keep my eyes open and see if one of those units shows up around here where I live ;-)

Just a little update:
I did an Experiment on one of my worst tapes with most errors. I tried cleaning the tape using this method (both sides of the tape): http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-Tape-Cleaner/
Played it back in my regular Panasonic NV-HS960 VCR. Before the cleaning, this tape had more than 20 head clog errors the first 30 minutes of the tape. After the cleaning, it was reduced to 5 small ones.

I think if I clean the tapes like this (maybe create a cleaning machine out of my defective Panasonic NV-J40) and clean my VCR carefully between every tape I play, I think I might use my Panasonic NV-HS960 on these tapes.

But so frequently cleaning of the VCR may damage the heads in the long run?

Cleaning the tapes manually is quite a tricky thing to do and I am glad you have been successful! As to regular cleaning of the heads damaging the machine it is not a problem, however every time you rub or push something against the heads increases the risk of an accident like snagging with a loop of loose cloth and cracking a piece off. Bear in mind that heads for the HS960 are completely unavailable - once broken, that's it.

[hysteriah]

Okey. I'm gonna try that and be very careful on the cleaning process of both tapes and videoheads.

Thank you very much lordsmurf, Quasipal and sanlyn

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasipal

either loose oxide (or cigarette residue in this case) momentarily blocks the head gap in the spinning video head. You can see the clog 'clear' as the picture sort of jumps back into clarity after the clog has cleared. Sometimes the tape is so dirty it clogs the heads instantly and no picture is shown - and I have to get the deck apart and clean the dirt off.

I didn't even think of this. I've not seen it in years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasipal

Well TBC is nice but not essential - anyway some slight jitter is better than a broken up image.

Well, many of us do consider TBC cleaning to be necessary. Both non-TBC scenarios are pretty bad -- either wobbly picture or static picture. Both are equally unenjoyable to watch. You should still seek a better solution. Which brings up to sanlyn's post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

If you have to use a VCR that has no built-in tbc, the fix is a DVD recorder used as a pass-thru device (not used as a recorder) to take advantage of the DVD recorder's built-in sync circuitry. Not all DVD recorders can be used as pass-thru devices with tbc capability. The most popular are Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15's and Toshiba high-end recorders in the RD-X series from the early 2000's. Newer models are practically worthless for this function. The advantage of a pass-thru device is that it doesn't tie you down to a single tbc-equipped player if that player can't be used. While these pass-thru circuits are not quite as powerful as those in a high-end tbc/VCR, they are pretty effective and most have good y/c filters to clean up composite input.

This is exactly what I would do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quasipal

Cleaning the tapes manually is quite a tricky thing to do and I am glad you have been successful!

Rule 1: Be gentle.
Rule 2: Be gentle!
Rule 3: BE GENTLE!

Did I mention that, when cleaning heads, you need to be gentle.


Another excellent thread. Nice analysis Quasipal.