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  #1  
08-19-2015, 06:53 PM
paulopereira paulopereira is offline
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I'm converting my VHS, S-VHS and Hi8 tapes to digital (most are masters or 1st generation tapes recorded in high grade tapes with pro-consumer recorders). I started to use uniquely JVC HM-DR10000 and JVC HR-S9700 (PAL models) and Sony EVO-9850 (NTSC model) and a Canopus (Grass Valley) ADVC-300. I was using only the videos TBC (line TBC/DNR) instead Canopus TBC: so, the Canopus was only doing the analogue to digital conversion.

Today I tried to use my Panasonic AG-8700 full frame TBC (note: I don't use AG-8700 as a player because most of home tapes do not play so good in this pro model). Well, I discover AG-8700 full frame TBC is the best I have: generally better than JVC line TBC or Canopus TBC. E.g., JVC HM-DR1000 (player, TBC/DNR off) - full frame TBC on (Panasonic AG-8700) - Canopus ADVC-300 - PC.

Unfortunately I've one problem: sometimes scroll happens (video available at https://youtu.be/PXpCiunLRn0). I've tried the AG-8700 TBC settings but no solution. So, do you think I could do some DIY? I've the service manuals but no serious technician skills.

When I turn off Panasonic TBC the scrollings stop. So, I think the problem is related to the TBC cards (TBC1 or TBC2). Recommendations to repair this problem are welcome (DIY)! :-) Of course I'm trying to avoid to send AG-8700 to maintenance... probably it's some cards' setting.

Like I'm trying the best conversion "possible", I'm also using high end cables: DPA Black Slink silver cables with WBT connectors (audio) and Nordost Optix Super S (s-video cable).

By the way, the best video player I know is the JVC HM-DR10000 (D-VHS). It is something better than JVC HR-S9700: better colors. I always prefered JVC in JVC vs. Panasonic wars. Probably not all agree with my choice.

Well, I need help!...
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  #2  
08-20-2015, 05:50 AM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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Quote:
I've the service manuals
and I the owner manuals.

Quote:
Unfortunately I've one problem: sometimes scroll happens (video available at https://youtu.be/PXpCiunLRn0).
I had also.
Right now the AG8700 is defective, only the player AG8600 with over 100 new capacitors marches yet.

Error in the Stream = I know, I did even if I. With the Canopus NX capture from AG8x00

Picture bounces by BFF and then by TFF.
I only know the German name ... "Bildhüpfer" ="picture hops"

Remedy here
S-Video and Audio to Pana DMR EH595 [front]
Output via HDMI ... or Pana DMR ES10 ... Output S-Video.

A little hint:
1004 = 02 [unloading]
2007 = 01 = ON [V-Blanking select.]
and
Audio I only take from front headphone [6.3 mm] jack.
Adjust level properly, do not forget.
------------
Quote:
JVC HM-DR10000
Yes, JVC HM-DR10000 wait here until he comes to the series


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  #3  
08-20-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
Picture bounces by BFF and then by TFF.
I only know the German name ... "Bildhüpfer" ="picture hops"
The term is vertical "jitter". However, that "jitter" is not technical video jitter (horizontal jitter). That's why I always use quotes, and explain that "jitter" is not jitter. Layman term vs. jargon.

It actually sounds like the Germans have a better term! Less confusing?

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  #4  
08-20-2015, 08:41 AM
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Goldwingfahrer Goldwingfahrer is offline
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It actually sounds like the Germans have a better term! Less confusing?
correctly in "German Language"
I am not a German man, speak Swiss German and write in German ... As a true Swiss

Switzerland Founded in 1291
Germany 1945
------------------

possible would signal via YUV or S-Video provide the AG8700 for Datavideo DAC 7 and from there via SDI to a BM card with SDI in.
Capture with VDub or the Blackmagic Software
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  #5  
08-20-2015, 09:39 AM
paulopereira paulopereira is offline
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Today I watched carefully some DV conversions using Panasonic AG-8700 as a full frame TBC, and it is better than JVC video's line TBC when dealing with removing dropouts. So, it will not be a big problem of I can't use my AG-8700, since most of tapes doesn't jave a large number of dropouts (some with more than 20 years). I purchased AG-8700 only with 600 hours and close to mint condition/after full maintenance at about 6 years ago (I paid around Euro 600.00!). Anyway, I'll try your recommended settings. I never use headphone jack. When the outup is a balanced XLR I use a XLR to RCA adaptor. So, did you send your AG-8600 for the change of 100 capacitors? I remember when I played a couple of S-VHS tapes (master tapes, top grade) at about 6 years ago in AG-8700 (it was working perfect), I found it too much sensitive to dropouts. The JVC HM-DR10000 or JVC HR-S9700 picture quality is much, much better, so I didn't decide to use it as a player, despite in theory it should be the best. I'm recording my DV in uncompressed AVI files and keep those in blu-ray data disks. For my favorite recordings I also made some blu-ray video disks, a better option than DVD video disks. By the way, I know there are some big fans of Canopus ADVC-300 and some with opposite evaluations of it. It is a great analogue to digital converter, but using these JVC videos I don't need to use the Canopus TBC settings and I prefer JVC TBC results than Canopus TBC results, so, it is turned off. Canopus TBC most of time doesn't improve the quality taking a lot of definition. I'm using it with Windows 10 without problems (I'm also using in Windows 10 the Picture Controller 300).

Attached is a photo of my analogue to digital conversion system. I also have a Grundig GV-280 (Panasonic drum) recorder. It was a gift from my lovely grandparents when I was 18 years old (today I'm 43). It is still in mint condition. I remember it was extremely expensive. Well, the picture quality isn't so good as my JVCs decks, so it is there but unused.


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File Type: jpg IMG_3106.jpg (74.0 KB, 28 downloads)

Last edited by paulopereira; 08-20-2015 at 09:51 AM.
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  #6  
08-21-2015, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulopereira View Post
I'm converting my VHS, S-VHS and Hi8 tapes
Today I tried to use my Panasonic AG-8700 full frame TBC
(note: I don't use AG-8700 as a player because most of home tapes do not play so good in this pro model).
As you've noticed, these old decks perform poorly with consumer tapes, and should not be used. Latter-genereration professional and prosumer equipment from the 90s and 00s is vastly superior.

Quote:
Well, I discover AG-8700 full frame TBC is the best I have: generally better than JVC line TBC or Canopus TBC. E.g., JVC HM-DR1000 (player, TBC/DNR off) - full frame TBC on (Panasonic AG-8700) - Canopus ADVC-300 - PC.
Better how? I'm not aware of the AG-8700 having passthrough abilities, meaning that it only works on tapes that are played when using it as the player.

The Canopus ADVC-300 is actually lower quality the 50/55 or 100/110 models, and does not have a TBC. Canopus (now Grass Valley) claims it has a "TBC", but none of the positive effects can be seen/verified when testing it. The image is not improved, the signal quality is not improved.

The JVC TBC is good, but is visual only. If does not effect the signal integrity.

Generally, you need both an internal VCR TBC to "clean the image", and an external frame sync TBC to "clean the signal".

Quote:
Unfortunately I've one problem: sometimes scroll happens (video available at https://youtu.be/PXpCiunLRn0).
If see jitter, not scroll. Sometimes the JVC TBC is known to add jitter when the signal is bad or just not cooperative. In those cases, it must be disabled. However, you have no other TBC in your workflow. In NTSC, we use the Panasonic DMR-ES10 passthrough, as well as the DataVideo TBC from mild anit-jitter filtering.

Quote:
Like I'm trying the best conversion "possible", I'm also using high end cables: DPA Black Slink silver cables with WBT connectors (audio) and Nordost Optix Super S (s-video cable).
You'll find that "high quality" cables sometimes are not actually high quality. In USA, the Monster brand is expensive, and supposedly "best" according to salesmen and laymen. However, the results do not agree. A $50 Monster cable is inferior to a $5 cable found online. Worth noting: bad cables usually just cause noise, not jitter.

Quote:
By the way, the best video player I know is the JVC HM-DR10000 (D-VHS). It is something better than JVC HR-S9700: better colors. I always prefered JVC in JVC vs. Panasonic wars. Probably not all agree with my choice.
JVC is best, no argument here. But sometimes certain tapes react better to a Panasonic, hence why most professionals and serious hobbyists have both.

See also: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ing-guide.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
correctly in "German Language"
I am not a German man, speak Swiss German and write in German ... As a true Swiss
Switzerland Founded in 1291
Germany 1945
I meant "Germans" as in speakers, yes.

But the founding info is interesting. I guess before WWII, technically Germany was known as Prussia, though between WWI and WWII it had sort of an identity crisis (Weimar/Nazi era). And the name came about from it being a "Germanic" society.

Having flashbacks to college history.

I actually never knew German speakers were in Switzerland.

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  #7  
08-21-2015, 08:59 AM
paulopereira paulopereira is offline
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Quote:
As you've noticed, these old decks perform poorly with consumer tapes, and should not be used. Latter-genereration professional and prosumer equipment from the 90s and 00s is vastly superior.
I think Panasonic AG-8700 PAL S-VHS deck was the last and best from Panasonic professional series. It was manufactured in 1997. The NTSC version was AG-DS850HP.

Quote:
Better how? I'm not aware of the AG-8700 having passthrough abilities, meaning that it only works on tapes that are played when using it as the player.
Yes, the input signal is passed by the TBC and DNR such as the signal of a played tape. The output signal is the corrected signal, like in any TBC. The TBC and other settings could be performed on the input signal. The major improvement I watch when compared to JVCs is the highest ability to correct dropouts.

Quote:
The Canopus ADVC-300 is actually lower quality the 50/55 or 100/110 models, and does not have a TBC. Canopus (now Grass Valley) claims it has a "TBC", but none of the positive effects can be seen/verified when testing it. The image is not improved, the signal quality is not improved.
I don't agree ADVC-300 quality is lower than 50/55 or 100/110 models. I agree when you say its TBC is poor. In theory is amazing but in field it doesn't work. I prefer JVCs TBC/DNR or "TBC"! Anyway, there are a lot of fans of ADVC-300. What is best in ADVC-300 is the amazing quality of analogue to digital conversion. That's why I "don't need" an external TBC.

Quote:
Generally, you need both an internal VCR TBC to "clean the image", and an external frame sync TBC to "clean the signal".
What external frame sync TBC do you recommend? Do you think I really need it? The results I have using my devices are amazing, and probably an external frame sync TBC could not add improvement. As I said, most of my tapes are top grade masters or 1st generation tapes. Probably it could be more usefull when 2nd, 3rd, etc., generation tapes are used. Am I right?

Quote:
You'll find that "high quality" cables sometimes are not actually high quality. In USA, the Monster brand is expensive, and supposedly "best" according to salesmen and laymen. However, the results do not agree. A $50 Monster cable is inferior to a $5 cable found online. Worth noting: bad cables usually just cause noise, not jitter.
The cables I'm using are great, but this is not a critical for the quality of conversion. You're right and sometimes top cables could be even fake. The one I'm using just guarantee there will be not problems in conversion due to connections.

Quote:
See also: VCR Buying Guide (S-VHS, D-VHS, Professional) for restoring video
I already watched this post at long time ago! Your posts are very valuable/references!!! Thanks! :-)
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  #8  
08-21-2015, 10:54 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
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The AG-8700 TBC, if it's really working on passthrough (I'm still dubious), may be useful. Passthrough TBCs (TBCs in other gear) are nice to have around. But you could have a capacitor issue, and they need replacing. Or it just fails to work well in certain workflows, and you'll have to identify what those.

The ADVC-300 adds processing noise. It's not an opinion, it's fact. The idea behind the 300 was the typical "least worst" scenario, where restoring one aspect (or more) creates a different harmful side effect. But the new side effect is preferable to the last. That's acceptable in a restoration workflow, but not at the hardware capture level, which is why it's completely disliked, and almost universally panned as a failed device. The ADVC-100 had none of the processing noise, though it still suffers from DV colorspace loss.

Note that PAL 4:2:0 is nowhere near as bad as NTSC 4:1:1. I'm not as against PAL DV as much as Goldwing is, but I'm still not a fan.

Being in PAL, your choices are more limited. From my own use of the DataVdeio TBC-100 and TBC-1000, they work great with PAL. We just got in a TBC-3000, and I'll give that a battery of tests here this weekend. A DataVideo is probably your best bet.

And thanks.

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