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  #1  
02-15-2018, 04:26 AM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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Hi there,

I have a panasonic DMR-EG10EG-S (europe version)

It looks like the luma signal is too high. I tried all combinations of in&outputs.

In the manual (US version) the following options ara avail:
- Video Black Level Control

but at my es10 I only have
- comb filter on/off
- still mode

Question: How do I reduce videolevel? ( p.s. Is it possible to upgrade by firmware?)

best regards
Oskar

By the way, this is a very nice forum, good info, nice helpfull members.
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  #2  
02-15-2018, 04:54 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
I have a panasonic DMR-EG10EG-S (europe version)
Are you sure that's the correct Panasonic model number? "DMR-EG10EG-S" looks like a typo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
In the manual (US version) the following options ara avail:
- Video Black Level Control

but at my es10 I only have
- comb filter on/off
- still mode
U.S. models are designed for NTSC, which has different IRE black level standards for North American and japanese NTSC. Apparently there is no such distinction for PAL countries. Note that the U.S. NTSC versions control only black levels at a single pre-set international level, not overall luma levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
Question: How do I reduce videolevel?
Video levels are usually controlled using the capture software. VirtualDub's capture program "hooks" into the proc amp controls supplied by your capture device's capture drivers. This is explained in the updated VirtualDub capture guide Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]. Specifically, see post #3 and post #4 in that guide.
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  #3  
02-27-2018, 07:25 AM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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Hi all,

The es10 problem is that what ever I do, the output videolevel is too high (tested on the waveform/vectorscope) and already destroy the signal.
setup/picture: comb filter on/off
picture: av-in NR = off

what can I do?

My digitize routing is something different:
- all compostite/yc sources (umatic/video8/betamax/(s)vhs) did go through my panasonic ag7750 with tbc and hardware filters/correctors but the 7750 is dead, so I use my es10 now, rgb component out
- es10 component out to sony uvw1800 betasp rgb compoment in
- sony uvw1800 component yuv out to sony dvw A500p digibeta component yuv in
- digibeta sdi out to decklink extreme capure card computer SDI in.

Any ideas for better results?

best regards,

Oskar
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  #4  
02-27-2018, 11:17 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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This may be a silly question, but what happens if you simply remove the es-10 from the chain? The uvw1800 and possibly the dvwA500 have built-in TBCs.

(I don't want to hijack the thread here, but I'm a bit interested in your setup as I've attempted to use the TBC in a PVW-2800 betacamsp deck we've got here for passthrough, but I haven't gotten it to work properly without a rolling picture yet.)
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  #5  
02-27-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
This may be a silly question, but what happens if you simply remove the es-10 from the chain? The uvw1800 and possibly the dvwA500 have built-in TBCs.
But is it passthrough? Simply having a TBC is not enough if it doesn't work exactly as needed.

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  #6  
02-27-2018, 01:20 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Seems the uvw1800's TBC is enabled on passthrough yes. source It may not be as strong at filtering stuff as the ES10 though.
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  #7  
02-27-2018, 02:05 PM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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the es10 is doing something good. It looks like it's smoothening the signal a bit and i see less of the dropouts of the composite signals.


The sony uvw has no tbc, and is just a converter from the es10 component rgb output to the component yuv for the digibeta input.


best regards,

Oskar
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  #8  
02-28-2018, 05:16 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Menus are different for North American, European, and Japanese editions of the ES10. In The U.S., the input/output settings are accessed from the remote control by clicking the "Setup"button. On other models you have click "Function", then "to others", then"Setup".

For PAL or NTSC, input="lighter", output="darker".
In VirtualDub capture you also have proc amp settings. "Brightness" controls black levels, "Contrast" controls brights.

What your "ES10" is doing is beyond me because your model number shows up nowhere and the Eurpean menus are different from U.S./Canada. I've seen and used both units and the input/output settings always worked normally.
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  #9  
02-28-2018, 02:15 PM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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hey Sanlyn,

Yes I know about the different menu options, too bad that I don't have the right options, or are there hidden menus?

My opinion about virtual dub is that the videofile is already digitized, and I think that you have a better chance to correct the analogue signal before digitized.

The other thing about virtual dub is that it is windows only, I capture on a mac as quicktime prores. Even vdub has no loader for qt prores, or am I wrong? Is there something like virtual dub on osx?

best regards,

Oskar, Amsterdam
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  #10  
02-28-2018, 03:12 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Frankly I've never heard of a model DMR-EG10EG-S or similar designations. PAl and NSC models of the ES10/15 sseries are "DMER-ES10" and "DMR-ES15". They sometimes have a "k" or "s" suffix indicating chassis color. The remotes don't look like the one you're using; the ES10/15 remote has a "setup" button on the lower right that accesses the required settings. If you look at your remote you won't find that button labeled "Setup".

Sorry, didn't know you were limited to a Mac. There is no lossless capture for Mac OS. Some people run Windows in various Virtual machine setups, but a lot of the tonnage of video software available for Windows won't run in virtual machine setups.

Mac capture is DV and QuickTime, or other lossy codecs. The nearest thi9ng to lossless capture with Mac is the ProRes codec. Readers more familiar with the Mac OS will have to advise.
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  #11  
03-01-2018, 01:47 AM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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Hi there,

these pic are from my es10

best regards,

Oskar

ps. quicktime prores422 and prores422HQ are near lossless, and one of the main industry standards in video postproduction.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC01492_small.jpg (43.1 KB, 46 downloads)
File Type: jpg DSC01493_small.jpg (60.0 KB, 32 downloads)
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  #12  
03-01-2018, 01:52 AM
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ES10EG is Europe.

I've not tried MagicYUV (lossless for Windows, Mac and Linux) as a capture codec yet. But it's somewhat moot, because there's really no way to install non-DV, non-NLE type capture cards on Mac (and BM is more NLE than not).

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  #13  
03-01-2018, 03:12 AM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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As far as I know blackmagic ,aja and matrox are the only video capture cards with sdi, for mac and pc. To digitize video it's also nice to have a rs422 controller to control the vcr and speedup the overall process, especially for batch capture. unfortunately only pro machines have this rs422 option. But I guess many of the forum members don't have pro vcr's and sdi capture cards and don't digitise in lossless or uncompressed quality like QTprores or dpx sequences, and that's ok. But the pro industry demands high quality digitized videofiles for broadcast use or archieving with the option to use the videofiles for future usage. Specialized software for video restoration is DigitalVision Phoenix, Pixelfarm clean or MTI nova.
BUT, what I like about this forum is that it's for everyone who wants to digitize videotapes, all levels. and I hope that everybody can help each other.

For me right now, I'm concerned about how to digitize the old vhs/svhs/video8/betamax/umatic tapes the best way.

ps about the es10, any ideas about getting the tbc options? (flashing firmware?)

best regards,

Oskar
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  #14  
03-01-2018, 06:01 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
As far as I know blackmagic ,aja and matrox are the only video capture cards with sdi, for mac and pc. To digitize video it's also nice to have a rs422 controller to control the vcr and speedup the overall process, especially for batch capture. unfortunately only pro machines have this rs422 option. But I guess many of the forum members don't have pro vcr's and sdi capture cards and don't digitise in lossless or uncompressed quality like QTprores or dpx sequences, and that's ok. But the pro industry demands high quality digitized videofiles for broadcast use or archieving with the option to use the videofiles for future usage. Specialized software for video restoration is DigitalVision Phoenix, Pixelfarm clean or MTI nova.
BUT, what I like about this forum is that it's for everyone who wants to digitize videotapes, all levels. and I hope that everybody can help each other.

For me right now, I'm concerned about how to digitize the old vhs/svhs/video8/betamax/umatic tapes the best way.

ps about the es10, any ideas about getting the tbc options? (flashing firmware?)

best regards,

Oskar
Gosh. A lot to ponder here.

We already know that Blackmagic was never intended for VHS and that it drops frames left and right. Many complaints about it.

Amateurs and pros capture SD analog video to lossless (100%lossless, not partially or "mostly" lossless) using huffyuv, Lagarith and/or UT Video, sometimes MagicUV (which is optimized for HD unfortunately and distorts BFF video such as consumer DV source).

We still can't locate pro software that can do what Avisynth can do. There's more to VHS restoration than cut and join, as you know. It would be interesting for a pro to demo what DigitalVision Phoenix can do with VHS or Hi8 in a system that they could design for us. But in all these years we've had no submissions or suggestions AFAIK. Forums like digitalfaq. videohelp,etc., don't usually go for automated playback or processing, it's more of a manual, hands-on culture, sometimes frame-by-frame.

Of course most users never approach either level. Most are working with DVD/VHS combo machines and spending big money for Adobe "Pro"so they can use it like a $50 budget editor. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to convince those users that there are better methods.
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  #15  
03-01-2018, 11:00 AM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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Hi Sanlyn,

Thanks for your reply. I think that I understand what you mean about restoration of analogue consumer videotapes. Umatic would be an added exception because that "was" a broadcast level, once. But it's also composite signal. Anyway, problems with analogue comsumer videotapes could be:
- luma and color bleeding
- drop outs
- lots of unwanted noise
- sync problems and tearing
- scanline failures
- ghosting effects

Am I right? So you think that virtualdub with avisynth have better options to solve these analogue problems?

If YES, I really have to take a look at these tools, because some of my tapes have these issues. And some tapes are so important for my clients, that more time=money is not that important.

By the way, I think after solving this kind of problems it's very important to colorgrade the digitized material. Here you need good grading software like resolve or the tools from the pro restoration software I mentioned before.

(I think most digital problems from dv/dvcam/ect. can be solved by software like phoenix and pfclean most of the time.)

And BM and AJA only work well if you use a good TBC. And "hand-by-hand, or frame by frame is simply too expensive for restoration, I think as well.

Let me know what you think.

Best regards,

Oskar
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  #16  
03-01-2018, 11:54 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
I think that I understand what you mean about restoration of analogue consumer videotapes. Umatic would be an added exception because that "was" a broadcast level, once. But it's also composite signal. Anyway, problems with analogue comsumer videotapes could be:
- luma and color bleeding
- drop outs
- lots of unwanted noise
- sync problems and tearing
- scanline failures
- ghosting effects
Tearing (otherwise called "flagging") and audio sync problems shouldn't appear in a capture. Line-level and frame=level tbc's address those issues at capture time, along with Virtualdub capture or AmarecTV. Dropouts include ripples, horizontal static lines, full-frame dropout static, spots of all kinds including comets and splotches with names like strawberries, grapes, color bursts, etc. Then there are chroma noise and rainbows, frame hops, border stains, uneven borders, head switching noise, dot crawl, aliasing, moire, sloppy interlace, buzzing edges, DCT ringing, edge halos, dropped frames, inserted (duplicate) frames, consumer camera CMOS noise, block noise in gradients, black level and highlight clipping (should be avoided during capture with level controls), improper telecine or pulldown, broken/faded lines in anime -- to name some of the most common offenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
Am I right? So you think that virtualdub with avisynth have better options to solve these analogue problems?
Avisynth is more effective. http://avisynth.nl/index.php/External_filters. http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Internal_filters. http://www.avisynth.nl/users/warpenterprises/

Quote:
Originally Posted by josje22 View Post
I think after solving this kind of problems it's very important to colorgrade the digitized material. Here you need good grading software like resolve or the tools from the pro restoration software I mentioned before.
Avisynth has good facility for level and color issues that require initial work in the original, unaltered YUV, and VirtualDub has some good RGB plugins that mimic a few pro tools and histograms. The pro apps of course have more sophistication when required. Avisynth also has a highly respected deinterlacer/denoiser (QTGMC).

For the advanced users and pros alike, one advantage of Avisynth and VirtualDub is that they're free and don't require expensive high-powered PC's. This isn't to disparage the abilities of some very good industrial-strength high-end products.

Previously posted before/after comparisons of 3 consecutive "bad frames" from damaged tape capture repaired with Avisynth, and color fixed with Avisynth and Virtualdub. Frames 266 and 267, below, had serious dropout problems. The third frame (268) was recovering from the bad tape portion but had no color. Somewhat complicated becauase the baby and camera weren't exactly motionless:

Frame 266 before (top) and after (below):




Frame 267 before (top) and after (below):





Frame 268 before (top) and after (below):




Often, however, we get captures from tapes so badly damaged or poorly played that repair isn't possible.

Last edited by sanlyn; 03-01-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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  #17  
03-01-2018, 01:07 PM
josje22 josje22 is offline
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I'm gonna have nightmares about your list of analogue videotape problems
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  #18  
03-01-2018, 02:31 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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That wasn't from one of my own tapes, thank goodness. I have had some smaller but still ugly dropouts, though.

Another near disaster: I had a retail tape that played with three completely blown out frames in a row, solid snowy static from corner to corner. The same tape in another VCR model, and 4 years older, played perfectly. Good idea to have more than one VCR around.
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